Overcoming the language barrier

[ScottinCrimea]

I think the point is that it isn't bad to try to get to know a woman who doesn't speak English, it's bad to become engaged to one.  Your case would have worked just as well if you had followed the same process but hadn't become engaged first.

[Simoni]

And the bigger point that is larger than the topic of this thread is that it's not a good idea to get engaged to ANY girl, regardless of her English level, if you don't know her well.

And English is essential in getting to know her.

It's that simple.

Exceptions certainly may exist, but they are that--exceptions.  For the best opportunity for success, a common language is very important.

[DKMM]

Exactly Simoni, exactly.  I used to not think it was so but my last trip to Russia put my thinking squarely into your camp.  there is communicating and body language.  but then there is really being able to have a mental connection about things that only comes with mastery of common language.

Too bad there aren't a lot of available english speaking RW out there though.

[Mir]

Too bad there aren't a lot of available english speaking RW out there though.

I think there are quite a few of them

[Jazzyclassy]

well there are some who know English amazingly but the funny thing is that they are not interested in foreign guys , I met such girls in my University , they are people of different level and girls with different views on life they  are not searching for the guys out there abroad , they have Russian boyfriends and hubbies but at the same time they know English perfectly  and they know the UK and USA culture , and they use it as their career , being a successful interpreters for example or working as a good professional translators in some publishing house:)

It is just so common in our life such kinda situations, the ones who have all the abilities and  opportunities never use them so to say and the others who has none are trying so hard to get them.......

[Daveman]

They're rather common Jazzy, perhaps not to the level of proficiency you describe, but those who can speak good English who are interested in meeting a foreign man are very easy to find in larger cities.  Both of the first two ladies I tangled with were near fluent. 

My situation is a little different because prior to this woman, I had limited any contact to women who were good or better with English.  This particular woman's profile was put on Elena's models by her agency and they mistakenly (I guess) reversed her  Russian and English ability. So she was listed as fluent in English and basic with Russian.  I didn't notice this until after the first few letters because her "English" was excellent through the translator.  The content of her letters impressed me so much that when I did I realized the real nature of the situation, I thought (and still think) she just might be such a jewel of a woman that the time and effort involved to develop this relationship could be very well worth it in the long run. Aside from a couple of days of butting heads because of the language barrier when we first met in person, we've been in a nice groove with easy and natural relations.  Our communication becomes easier each day, but we still have a long road ahead of us before we are ready to take the step of engagement or marriage.

Before I met her, I would have agreed completely with those who those espouse the concept of seeking only women who can speak English well.  Now I still do not disagree, I simply have chosen to put the time and effort into this because I believe in this one woman, but even so, I would not recommend this approach to anyone else.

I just say, that if someone is open to the idea of meeting a woman who does not share a common language with you, then KNOW ahead of time that the time line of each step in the relationship increases and personal character traits such as strength, tenacity, and patience are prerequisites for *both* involved or there is zero chance of success.  There has to be a little blending of Western and Eastern stubbornness for sure.

Dave

[Daveman]

My situation is a little different because .....

I want to clarify something here. My 'situation' is *not* different.  The way I met her was by a profile listing accident, and different in that way only, but I am still in a relationship with a woman who does not share a common language with me... THAT is my situation, nothing unique or different about it. 

The partial sentence above is used all to often to justify complete goofball streams of rationalization and can be a springboard to leading to catastrophe.  If you find yourself saying or typing those words... STOP and THINK... and immediately look down because you're probably standing on a trap door...

Dave

[catzenmouse]

Dave.

 All our situations are a "little different" so in some ways that goes without saying. The basics are the same. The good, bad, smart, stupid things we all do or can do are the same.

 It really all boils down to the two of you. Common language/no common language are just another thing that can be an issue or not. This depends on the people involved and how much effort they are willing to put into their future together. This can also be a very telling sign as to the success of the couple together.

 Elena worked her butt off (not literally thank goodness  ) to bring her English up to speed during our courtship. She arrived here (approximately 7 months after we met) with enough skill that she was instantly the top of her ESL class and after that aced an advanced ESL class at the local college. This told me a lot about her intentions and about how she viewed our relationship.

Ken

[Daveman]

Of course you're right Ken. I've been reading tons of older threads lately, and it seems some of the strangest patterns of rationalization begin with "My situation is different..."

There really is a great education here going back quite a while.  I wish I would have found this place a couple of years ago.

Elena sounds like a such a wonderful gal.  I enjoy seeing her through your eyes.  I hope the rest of us still in the process can be half as fortunate. 

Dave

[Momus]

JB might have alluded to this way up thread, but I thought I'd throw in some thoughts on my experience.

I'm willing to "make a deal" with those who think it's okay to bring a woman to their country when she doesn't speak the language. I'm all for it, but they have to spend at least a couple months in her country, first, and not in some expat community, downtown hotel, or work environment where everyone speaks some English.

I spent three months in Moscow recently. It wasn't exactly a fair test, because (a) it's Moscow, and if I wanted to go looking, I could always find someone who spoke English, including other English-speaking expats; (b) Masha speaks fluent English, so I was never completely isolated; and (c) I was able to continue my work by telecommuting from our flat.

Nevertheless, adapting to an environment where you can't effectively communicate is so difficult, I can't adequately describe it. It's exhausting. It can be depressing. There's no lonelier feeling, I think, than being surrounded by people talking to each other and you're standing on the outside looking in.

* A woman rings the doorbell, I think she's the landlord. No idea what she wants. Maybe there's a gas leak. Who knows?

* Cop outside the flat talking to some guy. I walk by, punch in the code, open the door...realize the cop is yelling...realize he's yelling at me. No idea what he wants. Flash the blue passport, he scowls and waves me off. Who knows?

* I'm at the market picking up some groceries. I read the register and pay the checker. She says something. I just shrug. Who knows?

* Drunk, aggressive bum on the street approaches me. Almost certainly wants money. It gets moderately physical because I can't even tell him to *snip* off. Yelling at him in English will just make the situation worse.

* I get married and can't understand a single word the official is saying at my own wedding ceremony. Masha does her best to interpret in real-time, but I still missed most of it.

Again, I experienced only a tiny fraction of the isolation that a Russian woman with little or no English would experience in an English-speaking country. Tiny.

Still, I probably would have wigged out if I couldn't work and had to sit there watching incomprehensible Russian TV all day (although I could mostly follow episodes of the "Married, With Children" clone because I'd seen them so many times ).

I know I would have gone bat-*snip* crazy if I hadn't been able to speak with Masha every day. Seriously, I can't even imagine a woman being in this situation and not even being able to communicate fluently with her husband. I'm amazed that any K-1s in this situation survive beyond 90 days.

Anyway, do your two to three months in this environment, and then decide whether you're willing to put your beloved through a much, much worse experience.

[jb]

Momus,

Your analysis and perspective is right on the mark.  My wife of 5 years spoke fluent English before she arrived, fluent enough that she was hired by one of the local colleges within days of her arrival long before she had the EAD, (they trusted her on that one), and she will tell you it's still a very difficult day's work to have to deal only in English everyday.  Even after being here so long I still have to hunt for quick and easy defnitions as she watches TV because she still has trouble keeping up with a fast paced dialog, this is especially true if there if a fair amount of hip-hop slang involved.  Honestly, I have trouble with that part myself.

Your side bet with the advocates of the OWW method, to go and live in Russia or Ukraine for a few months in a strictly Russian speaking environment would be a huge eye opener for anyone who thinks this is the easy way to get a bride.  It's the best way to get a superior bride, but it ain't easy.

[I/O]

Twenty five pages going round and round in circles with much of it being mere speculation and guesswork.  {Sigh} Anything can be done, but will it be done?

There is simply less risk and a slightly easier path for both when the partners have some common language to start with, it is just that simple. The rest is .......well... pretty much cyber ink.

I/O

[catzenmouse]

Twenty five pages going round and round in circles with much of it being mere speculation and guesswork.  {Sigh} Anything can be done, but will it be done?

There is simply less risk and a slightly easier path for both when the partners have some common language to start with, it is just that simple. The rest is .......well... pretty much cyber ink.

I/O

True and no arguments from most who have posted in this thread. It keeps living (IMO) as a "reality check" for the newbie as we seem to continually have to offset one particular view. If the members here do not show this more realilstic view those who are not so experienced or knowledgable would get the impression that the "hype" is true.

We all know that "anything" is possible. I can walk into a store tomorrow and buy a winning lotter ticket and get hit by a bus on the way out the door. It is possible. Not even close to probable. And sure not very smart as I would obviously not have been paying attention.

A big part of RWD is trying to get people to pay attention to what is going on around them. Open their eyes and their minds to the possibilities AND the realities of the FSU and the FSUW.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming now...

[Momus]

My wife of 5 years spoke fluent English before she arrived, fluent enough that she was hired by one of the local colleges within days of her arrival long before she had the EAD, (they trusted her on that one), and she will tell you it's still a very difficult day's work to have to deal only in English everyday.

I have no doubt that it still isn't easy for a woman with fluent or near-fluent English. But "exhausting, frustrating, and sometimes confusing" is still a damn sight better than "completely and utterly isolated." That's what the woman with no English or poor English can look forward to.

With the benefit of my experience, and reminded by this thread, I recall some of those stories of failed K-1s we've read (and that I believe have since been removed). Despondent women. Depressed women. Women who sleep all the time when they're not being moody, angry, bitter, adversarial, hysterical, or downright hostile. But of course, the men who brought them here will insist that "the language barrier wasn't that big of a problem." 

It boggles the mind that some guys will ascribe to such insightful rules as "stay away from the big-city girls" or "stay away from the women who have traveled outside their village," and at the same time dismiss such trivialities as "find a woman you can communicate with."

It would be funny if it weren't so sad. Actually, it's still funny.

[Simoni]

Twenty five pages going round and round in circles with much of it being mere speculation and guesswork.  {Sigh} Anything can be done, but will it be done?

There is simply less risk and a slightly easier path for both when the partners have some common language to start with, it is just that simple. The rest is .......well... pretty much cyber ink.

I/O

yep, same 'ole same 'ole :-)

Marina and I are on vacation this week, and I've not "checked in" on RWD.  Now that I have-- surprise!    Same 'ole advice for newbies to ignore the language barrier and marry a girl who does not speak English.  Never ceases to amaze me, even after reading it the 100th time!

Newbies-- marriage to a russian girl is COMPLICATED, so you BETTER share a common language.

[Wayne B]

Newbies-- marriage to a russian girl is COMPLICATED, so you BETTER share a common language.
[/quote]                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I would also add, that a RW cannot be compared to an AW.....RW have their own way's of doing things and this alone takes some getting used to......So, get used to changing your self....because you want change her  As Jb has stated many times......Russian Women are not for everyone.....but, if you are lucky enough to make it work....you will be rewarded many times over.....but, please be sure that the two of you can communicate! or you will have a slim to none chance of making a relationship last.....

[groovlstk]

Momus,

This is one of the most insightful posts I've seen here in a long time.

[ScottinCrimea]

Momus, I can relate to what you say moe than most here because I chose to move to Ukraine to live with my wife, and my Russian was practically non-existent when I first arrived.  I went through the sense of isolation and frustration.  It's also hard on the ego having to have everything explained to you or just standing there like an idiot when a stranger talks to you and saying, "Ya ni panimayo."

Even now that my Russian is pretty good it's still hared work every day because I have to pay attention and concentrate all of the time to fully understand.  Even watching TV is not so relaxing because my mind had to be working to make the translation and fill in the blanks.

You hit a good point in your second post.  Even with excellent English, your RW is going to be more mentally tired and frustrated and confused more often and that can lead to some episodes of depression or at the very least lower energy levels and the need for more sleep.  You mentino these potential traits, "Women who sleep all the time when they're not being moody, angry, bitter, adversarial, hysterical, or downright hostile."  I was all of those things at one time or another.

One of the reasons I decided to move to Ukraine was because I didn't want to put my wife and her daughter through the stress of such a change and preferred to do it myself instead.

So I agree with what you said, that many if not most of the problems and failures in marriages of AM's to RW's are a result of the language issue, even though it may manifest more in other ways.

[Daveman]

A big part of RWD is trying to get people to pay attention to what is going on around them. Open their eyes and their minds to the possibilities AND the realities of the FSU and the FSUW.

Exactly.  Plus, we keep going round and round with this thread because newer people will not read all of the pages of excellent information; they will tend to read the first couple, and the last couple, so something as important as opening eyes to the language barrier reality and the dispelling of the dreamy unrealism of the hype is like a revolving door.

Momus, Excellent post.  I did exactly what you described in Ukraine for two months, with the exception of the wedding, but living in a Ukrainian flat, in an area where no one spoke English.  The girl I visited spoke English well, but from Mon-Fri she was at work, so left the flat at 8am and didn't return until 7pm.  During this time, I was on my own depending upon my vast knowledge (cough cough) of the Russian language to do anything. Then on my recent trip, I was totally submersed in Russian 24/7 - basically all verbal communication in Russian for 2.5 weeks, with my girl, with anyone save for the translator at her agency a few times. An electronic translator can sometimes help, but often causes more confusion when it gets something wrong. It ain't easy and is extremely exhausting. And this was only for a couple of weeks.

I pride myself on being completely in control of my emotions at all times. There is very little which can rattle me. Years of martial arts training and meditation has instilled in me a calmness which transcends almost any situation.  But, let me tell you, one broken water pipe flooding into the flat below, with people screaming in a foreign language, trying to deal with the landlord, shutting off the water, attempting mollify the screaming hysterically pissed of inhabitants of the flat below, and I was a basket case.  This is a true story. The stressful situation caused me to forget almost every Russian word I knew, at first I simply could not pull anything related to Russian from my mind, so bad went to worse in a hurry before it got better.

Another thing to think about in this, is that even with all the Anti-foreigner hype, people in Russia or Ukraine will do their very best to understand and communicate with you.  Maybe after you walk away, they'll comment to each other 'stupid foreigner', but in all cases where I tried to communicate, they did their very best with the utmost patience to communicate with me. In America, there seems to be a prevalent attitude of "friggin foreigner.. learn English or go HOME" that a lady must deal with.

If nothing else, newbies out there, look at the experience of those who are giving you a heads up about this.. they are the married guys who have had to deal with their wife's problems as she makes the transition (most of their wives already having excellent English skills); they are guys who have extended stays on FSU soil and have faced language problems first hand; they are guys who are currently in relationships with ladies who have worked hard together in making strides to overcome the language barrier and therefore know from first hand experience how difficult it can be.

The bottom line is - those who are giving you a dose of reality are doing so from real life experience... those who are talking about the language barrier not being an issue are doing so from misguided dreams with little to no experience. So, decide for yourself, which information is actually valid, and which is a pipe dream.

Dave

[Sort]

I have just "downloaded" another course in Russia.
This one is 1.7GB big and i will upload parts to my cellphone and listen and try it while i am working.
I work as a sheet metal worker and works on roofs so there is not many people there that can her me mess up.. :selfharm:

[BC]

I have just "downloaded" another course in Russia.
This one is 1.7GB big and i will upload parts to my cellphone and listen and try it while i am working.
I work as a sheet metal worker and works on roofs so there is not many people there that can her me mess up.. :selfharm:

Well my son is doing a great job teaching me RU..

btw he is 3 yrs old.

 

[2tallbill]

    So how do you get to know a person well enough to marry her when there is a language barrier?  Obviously when you take a trip there is an interpreter, but my limited experience with interpreters in other settings is that they may not always fully or correctly interpret what is being said.  In the case of a potential relationship, this is very important.

     I realize too that some RW/UW's speak some English, which certainly helps, and some men on this site went to the trouble of learning some Russian. 

     So for those of you who found someone, how did you overcome the language barrier enough to know you wanted to marry someone?  (and vice-versa for her?)


Dan C.

You absolutely need to be able to communicate. Angel Eyes and I have hundreds and hundreds of conversations about everything
from toilet seats (up or down) to child rearing. We tried to leave no stone unturned (tried), what we ended up with a general
understanding of what we expected out of each other and how to come together in the end. Everything doesn't work perfectly
and we still have occasional disagreements, but we communicated extensively.

Angel Eyes took English but was not confident in it. I paid for her (and Smiley Girl) to have English lessons in Russia with a friend
of mine in her city. We communicated for hundreds of hours. Smiley Girl went to American school and Angel Eyes took additional
language classes in American Junior colleges then later at jobs where none of her coworkers knew Russian.

A common language is absolutely necessary. You don't overcome the language barrier, you break it down. 

[ML]

I overcame the language barrier by NOT meeting with anyone who couldn't communicate in English.  Imperfect was OK, but no use of interpreters.

[krimster2]

if you can have "naked bania" with a Ukrainian woman, who speaks little English, then you can do ANYTHING else with her as well....
it's just not as easy to do with an English speaker
but...
considering how GOOD naked Ukrainian women look in the bania, it's totally worth the effort...

so you put more "into it"
to get that kind of "eye candy" out of it
what's "bad" about it?
nuth-ing!!!!