Again about Jim

[Sculpto]

How is Kevin supposed to diagnose one of his clients as mentally ill when the man's own fiancee was unable to tell there was something wrong with him? 

Sometimes its pretty obvious Groov.. other times it isn't.  But, if an agency is taking the money don't they have an obligation to perform a service to both the male and female members?

I might be wrong.. but.. I would have been willing to pay extra, prior to the point at which I hadn't soured completely on agencies, to have my background really checked and been interviewed by a staff spychologist.. and would have been really happy to know the same had been done with the ladies.  

Did I just make a new word?  

[jdk1963]

Sometimes its pretty obvious Groov.. other times it isn't.  But, if an agency is taking the money don't they have an obligation to perform a service to both the male and female members?

I might be wrong.. but.. I would have been willing to pay extra, prior to the point at which I hadn't soured completely on agencies, to have my background really checked and been interviewed by a staff spychologist.. and would have been really happy to know the same had been done with the ladies.  

Did I just make a new word?  

I would not want to be interviewed by a spychologist, psychologist or psychiatrist.  Simply because all it takes is one bad day and the interviewer insists you have serious problems.  A professional should know better but I would not bet on getting a serious professional. What you most likely end up with is a social worker who missed out on marrying an engineering student in college.

Yes I've been down that road.

[Wraith]

Oh, I imagine that for agencies to do a complete background investigation on an individual they will require a lot more information from perspectivve clients then what is necessary for IMBRA. And in the case of mental stability - yeah that probably wouldn't be easy to obtain with doctor/patient confidentiality.

[ECOCKS]

I would not want to be interviewed by a spychologist, psychologist or psychiatrist.  Simply because all it takes is one bad day and the interviewer insists you have serious problems.  A professional should know better but I would not bet on getting a serious professional. What you most likely end up with is a social worker who missed out on marrying an engineering student in college.

Yes I've been down that road.

Still, it would be interesting to determine whether there was a serious market niche for an agency that worked this way. The business model is logical, the only question is if there are enough serious guys out there to pay a premium for a "No Scammers" guarrantee. You would still get the GCG and devious devs but perhaps...

So, would something sort of like combining Fiddler on the Roof with eHarmony/Chemistry and Profiling really have any appeal for those who would also want the guarrantee that there would be no scamming?

[groovlstk]

Sometimes its pretty obvious Groov.. other times it isn't.  But, if an agency is taking the money don't they have an obligation to perform a service to both the male and female members?

If it was "pretty obvious" that the guy was mentally ill, why did this girl marry him?

One would think that this girl, who was likely intimate with this man and shared infinitely more private time with him than Kevin, would be in a much better position to discover there was something wrong with him.

[Sculpto]

If it was "pretty obvious" that the guy was mentally ill, why did this girl marry him?

One would think that this girl, who was likely intimate with this man and shared infinitely more private time with him than Kevin, would be in a much better position to discover there was something wrong with him.

thats pure speculation Groov..

I have mentioned this example before.. but its relevant again.. on my first trip on my way out in the line at Borispol I met a guy who was searching.  he was loud, obnoxious, rude and half drunk.  He had been searching in smaller towns in western Ukraine for a real "innocent one" to use his words.  He had the agency working overtime to find him a girl.  I saw from the first minute I spoke the the guy that he was bad news and would be really horrible to any woman unlucky enough to marry him.  He actually said, "I get a 90 day free pass, if she doesn't do what I want I will send her back with nothing" yet.. the agency kissed his arse for his $ and they did find him a girl.  A few months later when I happened to describe him on an email list.. someone recognized the description and linked to an article about the guy.. he was a politician from a certain midwestern state that had been arrested for drunk driving and embezzlement..

So.. should an honorable agency sensing that the guy was bad news take his money or not?

[groovlstk]

thats pure speculation Groov..

For the love of God...

Isn't it pure speculation that you are holding Kevin responsible for recognizing mental illness in his client when the client's own fiancee didn't recognize it?

[Boethius]

You have someone with limited English from a corrupt society.  When her fiance claims that Freemasons, who control all parts of the US government, are emitting microwaves to make him ill, or that corrupt police are bugging his apartment and following him every time he leaves his apartment, will she

a)  really understand what he is saying (I can assure you, she won't know what a Freemason is); and
b)  realize that American police don't even follow criminals, let alone crackpots?

[Sculpto]

For the love of God...

Isn't it pure speculation that you are holding Kevin responsible for recognizing mental illness in his client when the client's own fiancee didn't recognize it?

First lets leave Kevin out of it..

second.. if an agency has a bad feeling about a guy.. or a girl for that matter.. and they hook the people up.. and later it turns out bad.. their is a potential liability..

Let me make the point a different way..  You guys all know I HATE HRB.  So, let me delve deeper into their methodology and legal thinking.  They say they are only there to facilitate communication.. everything else is up to the individuals.  They enforce that by technically separating themselves from the actual agencies.  The do not actually make introductions.  Why?  Because they have FEAR OF LIABILITY.  That is what their lawyers told them to do.  They do not give advice about personalities.. and they will refuse to do so if asked.  But, they maintain a policy of blacklisting problem people and affiliate agencies when there is hard proof of wrong doing.

So, look at a smaller less corrupt, maybe even honest site that has a more hands on approach, but, they aren't really qualified to be matchmakers as they have no specific training to do so, but, they kind of fancy themselves as such because well.. thats kind of what they are doing.  But, at the end of the day, if there is a problem, they come back with.. well.. we aren't matchmakers and we are just introducing people and we black list problem people when there is hard proof of wrong doing.

So, what is really the difference between them?  One is big and flashy and the other less so.. but at the end of the day they are both washing their hands of any responsibility for anything that goes wrong.

[Admin]

thats pure speculation Groov..

I have mentioned this example before.. but its relevant again.. on my first trip on my way out in the line at Borispol I met a guy who was searching.  he was loud, obnoxious, rude and half drunk.  He had been searching in smaller towns in western Ukraine for a real "innocent one" to use his words.  He had the agency working overtime to find him a girl.  I saw from the first minute I spoke the the guy that he was bad news and would be really horrible to any woman unlucky enough to marry him.  He actually said, "I get a 90 day free pass, if she doesn't do what I want I will send her back with nothing" yet.. the agency kissed his arse for his $ and they did find him a girl.  A few months later when I happened to describe him on an email list.. someone recognized the description and linked to an article about the guy.. he was a politician from a certain midwestern state that had been arrested for drunk driving and embezzlement..

So.. should an honorable agency sensing that the guy was bad news take his money or not?

>>thats pure speculation Groov..<<

I think groov was just applying some sound logic. You may not agree with it, but it was far from "pure speculation."

>>So.. should an honorable agency sensing that the guy was bad news take his money or not?<<

First, define what you mean by "honorable"?

Next, you need to define "sensing" - as in Spidey sense or ??

To be clear, I am as disappointed as anyone in Kevin, however, as disappointed as I am in him (and it is VERY VERY disappointed), I seriously doubt he would knowingly place anyone in jeopardy.

There are, however, some 'associates' of Kevin's that I am quite sure are so focused on their nickel-and-dime profiteering, they would sell their mother, if the price were right.

Caveat emptor.

- Dan

[ECOCKS]

You have someone with limited English from a corrupt society.  When her fiance claims that Freemasons, who control all parts of the US government, are emitting microwaves to make him ill, or that corrupt police are bugging his apartment and following him every time he leaves his apartment, will she

a)  really understand what he is saying (I can assure you, she won't know what a Freemason is); and
b)  realize that American police don't even follow criminals, let alone crackpots?

Freemason?   

Crackpots?   :whirling:

Wait a minute!  :selfharm: I thought the Freemasons WERE the crackpots!

[Daveman]

First lets leave Kevin out of it..

second.. if an agency has a bad feeling about a guy.. or a girl for that matter.. and they hook the people up.. and later it turns out bad.. their is a potential liability..

Let me make the point a different way..  You guys all know I HATE HRB.  So, let me delve deeper into their methodology and legal thinking.  They say they are only there to facilitate communication.. everything else is up to the individuals.  They enforce that by technically separating themselves from the actual agencies.  The do not actually make introductions.  Why?  Because they have FEAR OF LIABILITY.  That is what their lawyers told them to do.  They do not give advice about personalities.. and they will refuse to do so if asked.  But, they maintain a policy of blacklisting problem people and affiliate agencies when there is hard proof of wrong doing.

So, look at a smaller less corrupt, maybe even honest site that has a more hands on approach, but, they aren't really qualified to be matchmakers as they have no specific training to do so, but, they kind of fancy themselves as such because well.. thats kind of what they are doing.  But, at the end of the day, if there is a problem, they come back with.. well.. we aren't matchmakers and we are just introducing people and we black list problem people when there is hard proof of wrong doing.

So, what is really the difference between them?  One is big and flashy and the other less so.. but at the end of the day they are both washing their hands of any responsibility for anything that goes wrong.

I'm not really convinced that they DO have any responsibility for anything which goes wrong.  If an agency clearly knows something specifically dangerous about a man and still takes him as a client, or does not disclose this information, then that's one thing, but to deal with people based on "feelings" is purely speculative and improper.  Hell, I would rarely take any clients if that were the case because I generally hate all other people in the world. There's something wrong with them all!  

  

[Faux Pas]

Let me make the point a different way..  You guys all know I HATE HRB.  So, let me delve deeper into their methodology and legal thinking.  They say they are only there to facilitate communication.. everything else is up to the individuals.  They enforce that by technically separating themselves from the actual agencies.  The do not actually make introductions.  Why?  Because they have FEAR OF LIABILITY.  That is what their lawyers told them to do.  They do not give advice about personalities.. and they will refuse to do so if asked.  But, they maintain a policy of blacklisting problem people and affiliate agencies when there is hard proof of wrong doing.

You can make the point any way you want to but you still don't get it. How in the world is the agency supposed to know more about an individual than their betrothed? It isn't the agency learning, living and loving the individual. They facilitate the introduction, end of story. If one marries somebody with problems much deeper than apparent on the surface, it would be THEIR own fault. They shoud have taken the time to know them. Your rationale is one of always blame someone else for your own failures

[Sculpto]

then what is the point of using an agency?

[ECOCKS]

Well put FP. The agencies, at best, can provide background checks and analysis on the individual up to the point that they are listed on the site. There are some benefits to this, financial, criminal, academic and possibly historical references on the person listed. These things are certainly possible on the American side and it seems that there are methods for checking various aspects of the gal's situation as well.

After listing and allowing introductions and matching to start, the agency is limited to policing based upon what the two individuals report to them or, possibly, what is witnessed by their employees, be they translators or guides during visits.

Personally, I regard the agencies as nothing more than international dating sites and fail to understand why anyone would use them as more than that or even expect them to have any usefulness the way they are setup now.

After all, did ANYBODY here actually submit to or authorize a background check before being listed on an agency's site?

[Makkin]

  Freemasons are those guys who make up the largest philanthropy in the world. The donantions are in excess of 1,000,000 per day. I would hardly descibe them as "Crackpots"..lol


   Our burn center in Galveston closed after the hurricane but children from all parts of the world  were treated for "NO COST" and it has been that way for many ages.

    What most people fail to understand is a "Freemason" is in fact a "Shriner".

Makkin

[Admin]

You can make the point any way you want to but you still don't get it. How in the world is the agency supposed to know more about an individual than their betrothed? It isn't the agency learning, living and loving the individual. They facilitate the introduction, end of story. If one marries somebody with problems much deeper than apparent on the surface, it would be THEIR own fault. They shoud have taken the time to know them. Your rationale is one of always blame someone else for your own failures

I think it is based on an ASSUMPTION being made about an agency's services and obligations - an ASSUMPTION that may, or may not, be rooted in an individual agency's published and advertised services.

Some time back RWD had a similar exchange. Sparing the reader *most* of the irrelevant upthread posts, here is a link to where the notion of an agency being a "matchmaker" was introduced -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7756.msg150354#msg150354.

Embedded in that topic is the recognition that our members at RWD also participated in the creation, and commemoration, of a set of written guidelines that describe an agency's ethical obligations. It can be found here -- http://www.certifiedmarriageagencies.org/index.php?pid=19.

The issue, it seems, revolves around whether or not an agency is *ALSO* a "matchmaker" - and if so, what obligations do they (or SHOULD they) accept?

I think that is the issue - but invite others to clarify with their understanding of the issue.

BTW Sculpto - in that earlier topic, it seems there are several open questions you posed that were never answered. Am I reading it correctly?

- Dan

[Sculpto]

Dan, you are correct.. I never got an answer

[Admin]

Dan, you are correct.. I never got an answer

I know the feeling.

Frustrating, isn't it? [rhetorical question - no response needed]

- Dan

[BC]

then what is the point of using an agency?

In business an 'agency' offers some kind of added value, whether it be in services or lower pricing.

Take a real estate agency as an example.  Client walks in, describes his housing needs, available financing and the agency searches for good possible matches and charges a price for the service rendered if successful.  That's the added value.  Success of the agency depends on good sales staff that excel in making good matches and the sole incentive is to create a successful match.  No sale, no earnings.

Now try to figure it all out with a RW agency and show where the added value is and where the incentives lie that warrant using one in the first place.

I see very little 'beef' inside that bun for either male or female clients and absolutely no incentive for the agency to even care about the results. Overall, the only added value is risk.

Some of the big dating sites have quite extensive questionnaires that are filled out by both clients and their 'system', whether human or automated, prepare possible matches.  I'm guessing they won't even show you their whole list of ladies.  Quite fair system IMHO and is part of their added value.  I haven't seen such at any RW related agency and I wonder why.  Is it that difficult or would it be too limiting for the 'puppy picker' that provides the easy cash flow..

Here's an example: http://www.chemistry.com/lovemap/questionnaire.aspx which is just a taste of the real questionnaire.

In addition they probably keep decent records of contacts so if anything untoward happens they know exactly who they are dealing with (credit card, address verification up front, probably even sex offender checks etc.).

Anyone ever sign up for match.com or such that can detail their requirements for BOTH clients?

[groovlstk]

I might be wrong.. but.. I would have been willing to pay extra, prior to the point at which I hadn't soured completely on agencies, to have my background really checked and been interviewed by a staff spychologist.. and would have been really happy to know the same had been done with the ladies.  

This is the same genesis of thinking that spawned IMBRA.

Staff psychologist?  And who might that be? The friend of an interpreter who is still in uni?

YOU may be willing to pay to have some amateur peek inside your brain and check your past before rubber-stamping you to be plundered by a marriage agency - and then have the results of said psych test with your name on it stored in an insecure database somewhere in Ukraine. Not me, and I would fight any efforts by people like you to legislate who and how I can date.

[groovlstk]

I have mentioned this example before.. but its relevant again.. on my first trip on my way out in the line at Borispol I met a guy who was searching.  he was loud, obnoxious, rude and half drunk. 

Well whoop-dee-doo, you found a miscreant amid the pile of FSU bride seekers? Congratulations! They're mighty rare and hard to spot in the wild.

He had been searching in smaller towns in western Ukraine for a real "innocent one" to use his words.

I'd guess then that he's still searching if he expects to find an "innocent one." I have to laugh at some of you guys who still believe in the proverbial village virgin waiting for a heroic Westerner to come rescue her. Given his deficiencies, if your pal actually finds a girl willing to marry him I'd wager she and her family are fully aware of what he is and how they can in turn get what they want.

So.. should an honorable agency sensing that the guy was bad news take his money or not?

You're talking about a segment of business that is so corrupt that it raises eyebrows amongst other, slightly less corrupt FSU businesses. Some of these folks are little more than flesh peddlars and pornographers, and you're worried about psychological screening? 

[Faux Pas]

I think it is based on an ASSUMPTION being made about an agency's services and obligations - an ASSUMPTION that may, or may not, be rooted in an individual agency's published and advertised services.

Some time back RWD had a similar exchange. Sparing the reader *most* of the irrelevant upthread posts, here is a link to where the notion of an agency being a "matchmaker" was introduced -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7756.msg150354#msg150354.

Embedded in that topic is the recognition that our members at RWD also participated in the creation, and commemoration, of a set of written guidelines that describe an agency's ethical obligations. It can be found here -- http://www.certifiedmarriageagencies.org/index.php?pid=19.

The issue, it seems, revolves around whether or not an agency is *ALSO* a "matchmaker" - and if so, what obligations do they (or SHOULD they) accept?

I think that is the issue - but invite others to clarify with their understanding of the issue.

BTW Sculpto - in that earlier topic, it seems there are several open questions you posed that were never answered. Am I reading it correctly?

- Dan

Dan, I personally think the idea of a "staff psychologist" for an agency is absurd and certainly shoulders with the "picking a puppy" concept. What would such an in-depth agency be required to do? Post their psychoanalyst on the man's and lady's profile? Another line stating this person has been deemed 67% borderline skitszo with Bi-polar leanings by our highly skilled staff? I have a number of problems with that idea that I won't even go into. I have no dog in this hunt as I haven't used any agency aside from EM and I was free to choose to communicate or not communicate with any lady I so chose.

To answer one of Sculpt's questions, I am not affiliated with any agency so my answer can be taken for what it's worth. What qualifies one to call themselves a match maker? The very same thing that qualifies Sculpt to be the forum know-it-all.

If Kevin or anyone else who went to the FSU, met and married a RW/UW would be in my opinion, uniquely qualified to call themselves a match maker from their experience. How good or bad of a match maker could easily be determined by their successes or failures. 

Sculpt is coming off as the know-it-all, bitter old man that got fleeced by a few agencies and in turn wish to stick a knife in every one he finds. IMO 

[tim 360]

Quote from: Sculpto on Yesterday at 10:41:30 PM
I might be wrong.. but.. I would have been willing to pay extra, prior to the point at which I hadn't soured completely on agencies, to have my background really checked and been interviewed by a staff spychologist.. and would have been really happy to know the same had been done with the ladies.  

Many agencies do have a staff psychologist to give you a check-up-from-the-neck-up Sculpto.  Most of the terps could do it for a small fee.  "Subject presents with delusional......"  Did you ask to have yourself and the girls you were interested mentally and emotionally evaluated?  I'm sure most agencies would arrange for that for a small or large fee.  A competant shrink will cost a bit more but I'm sure they will happily take your money.   There must be a Russian version of Dr Phil to to the eval?

[kievstar]

Agency I met my wife did a so called psychological analysis of my wife.  They did this on all the girls not sure if they still do.  Was more into was she comfortable in marrying a foreigner, marriage commitment level, personality, moving to another country, role she expected a man to perform ,etc.  I bought it to read it.  It was 100% accurate what they had in the two page report. 

One thing in particular I paid attention to was critical in this report.  My wife had a tendency to get interested in a lot of men and lose interest quickly. Dating several guys (not sleeping) at same time was common.  She did start a K-1 with another guy before me but she lost interest in him.    Another thing in her report was extremely high commitment to family and husband.  So getting her to get married was difficult but once she married she is committed through thick and thin.  Her family (not my wife) tells me all the time of the marriage offers she has received by locals and foreign men.   

I had a real psychological test performed on me to allow me to do political consulting - was interviews, role playing etc. I gave my wife's report to them and they said were almost a perfect match. But no one is a perfect match to each other.

My ex-wife and I had to take a test for the Catholic church and the father who married us told us to never get married as we did not agree on certain important topics per this test.  Said this will be a marriage that will not last.  He was right 10 years it ended. 

I am not saying tests are the way to go but for me they have worked.  But is it really in the best interest of an agency to do tests on men and women as what money is in it for them.  Agencies are a business and for many of them letter writing is the gravey train.  Photos of young real models with no intentions of getting married for 10 years is great business for them.  Men get so cheap on cutting costs on apartments, translators, etc that agencies can not make money off men who visit.  Better to have men who write letters.