Again about Jim

[BC]

Sculpt is coming off as the know-it-all, bitter old man that got fleeced by a few agencies and in turn wish to stick a knife in every one he finds. IMO 

LOL.. Is a bit interesting that this old man ain't bitter, didn't get fleeced but still holds an opinion about agencies, one fairly similar to that Sculpto expresses..

In principle it seems Sculpto and I posted along somewhat similar lines, I called it value added, Sculpty calls it whatever.  

How bout a challenge folks..  Instead of turning Sculpto into Scalpto, try answering my post, or show me one agency that makes more money on winners than losers, dropouts or the outright scammed.. I doubt any make more than 5% of their revenue from those that end up with a ring on their finger.

Hell, I tripped over a FSU woman and married her.. -and didn't know squat at the time.  Dumb as a rock..  But if that qualifies me as a matchmaker then I sure have the smarts now to set up a profitable site and make a few extra bucks.  Forget the ethical, honest crappola, it don't pay.

[Daveman]

In business an 'agency' offers some kind of added value, whether it be in services or lower pricing.

Take a real estate agency as an example.  Client walks in, describes his housing needs, available financing and the agency searches for good possible matches and charges a price for the service rendered if successful.  That's the added value.  Success of the agency depends on good sales staff that excel in making good matches and the sole incentive is to create a successful match.  No sale, no earnings.

Now try to figure it all out with a RW agency and show where the added value is and where the incentives lie that warrant using one in the first place.

I see very little 'beef' inside that bun for either male or female clients and absolutely no incentive for the agency to even care about the results. Overall, the only added value is risk.

Some of the big dating sites have quite extensive questionnaires that are filled out by both clients and their 'system', whether human or automated, prepare possible matches.  I'm guessing they won't even show you their whole list of ladies.  Quite fair system IMHO and is part of their added value.  I haven't seen such at any RW related agency and I wonder why.  Is it that difficult or would it be too limiting for the 'puppy picker' that provides the easy cash flow..

Here's an example: http://www.chemistry.com/lovemap/questionnaire.aspx which is just a taste of the real questionnaire.

In addition they probably keep decent records of contacts so if anything untoward happens they know exactly who they are dealing with (credit card, address verification up front, probably even sex offender checks etc.).

Anyone ever sign up for match.com or such that can detail their requirements for BOTH clients?

This is actually a value added post.  I was a member for a while of both Chemistry and E-harmony. The latter of which having an extensive battery of online tests beyond that of chemistry.  IMO, even if we are talking a service offering "matchmaking", they are still not responsible for anything other than matching personality types to a high percentage probability of compatibility. The onus lies with the individuals to take it from there.  

Those personality tests do a fairly good job at matching people of common traits for the most part.  THAT would definitely be an added value to the international dating scene by matching those with a high probability of compatibility as opposed to the norm of matching the volume of drool to the size of the breasts and shape of the a$$.  But even so, these kinds of tests cannot predict the future, nor can they weed out those with true mental defects.  The suggestion that an agency take on this responsibility of defect determination is ludicrous.  


  

[groovlstk]

But even so, these kinds of tests cannot predict the future, nor can they weed out those with true mental defects.  The suggestion that an agency take on this responsibility of defect determination is ludicrous.  

Very true, Dave. Any psychological test can be gamed - the authors try to be crafty by creating series of check questions - basically asking you similar questions in slightly different ways and if your answers are consistent then supposedly you're being truthful.

[BC]

Very true, Dave. Any psychological test can be gamed - the authors try to be crafty by creating series of check questions - basically asking you similar questions in slightly different ways and if your answers are consistent then supposedly you're being truthful.

Groove,

You're absolutely correct, nothing is perfect, but isn't there a thing called 'trying'?

[Shadow]

The added value of an agency is two sided.

For the women it saves the time of getting on the internet and reading all male profiles, and to some extent agencies filter out the idiots.

For the men agencies offer services which go from offering a database of women to being a one-stop-shop for the whole experience.

To some men and women agencies are not needed as they can figure out things without them. For others they are a good support when venturing in the unknown.

To each their own.

[Faux Pas]

Kiev... many of these psychological tests can be extremely accurate. The problem is that they rely solely on the truthfulness of the one taking the test. If a man or a woman had ill intentions why would they be honest with answers on a test?

BC... let's be real for a minute. Nobody can pick your mate but you. If you leave the task of picking her to another, don't be surprised what you end up with. Agencies services aren't nuclear science. There is little if any "smarts" involved with match making. It's been done through history by pretty much everybody. They (agencies) offer a service of introducing a man and a woman. They're not magicians and have no crystal balls. It is up to the individuals to learn and determine if the match is for them. What's with blaming the agency because it doesn't work out? Buyer beware

[groovlstk]

Groove,

You're absolutely correct, nothing is perfect, but isn't there a thing called 'trying'?

BC, it would seem to me that the very people who should be screened out (scammers, mentally ill) are the ones who will game the test - there's no incentive for them to be honest.

FWIW, I'm not against the idea of "trying" to protect people, only that methods like forcing clients to take psychological tests would be ineffectual - I'm sure some smartypants could create a marketing campaign around the idea like eHarmony has, but as far as being useful to the men and women involved...? I just don't see it.

The people involved in this pursuit are all adults. We can debate the % of nuts, scammers, pro daters, control freaks, etc. who are part of it, but at the end of the day it's they who have to live with the consequences of their decisions.

FWIW, when I was searching I barely trusted the marriage agencies I used with my credit card info - why would I entrust them with anything more personal? 

[BC]

BC... let's be real for a minute. Nobody can pick your mate but you. If you leave the task of picking her to another, don't be surprised what you end up with. Agencies services aren't nuclear science. There is little if any "smarts" involved with match making. It's been done through history by pretty much everybody. They (agencies) offer a service of introducing a man and a woman. They're not magicians and have no crystal balls. It is up to the individuals to learn and determine if the match is for them. What's with blaming the agency because it doesn't work out? Buyer beware

Hey Faux, no skin off my back..

In my book, anyone who is worldly enough for this venture won't need an agency if he/she is willing to put in a wee bit of effort.  Those that don't have the time to explore alternative approaches that will get them better exposure will just have to deal with the risk of flack and likely do not have the time, resources or patience to really follow through.  A few succeed, most fail, but the bottom line is that there is not much bang for buck (at least not mine) trying to take the agency shortcut.

The couch potatoes are well served as they pay for a fantasy and are happy with that.  Both sides served well, service is top so bez problem.. more power to them doing what they do best.

For those seriously looking, we're not talking marriage agencies or matchmakers at all.. it's more like address sellers (if you are lucky), picture collectors or social pimps.  Pure potluck.

You're probably better off finding a woman that does not come with a program.

[Faux Pas]

Hey Faux, no skin off my back..

In my book, anyone who is worldly enough for this venture won't need an agency if he/she is willing to put in a wee bit of effort.  Those that don't have the time to explore alternative approaches that will get them better exposure will just have to deal with the risk of flack and likely do not have the time, resources or patience to really follow through.  A few succeed, most fail, but the bottom line is that there is not much bang for buck (at least not mine) trying to take the agency shortcut.

The couch potatoes are well served as they pay for a fantasy and are happy with that.  Both sides served well, service is top so bez problem.. more power to them doing what they do best.

For those seriously looking, we're not talking marriage agencies or matchmakers at all.. it's more like address sellers (if you are lucky), picture collectors or social pimps.  Pure potluck.

You're probably better off finding a woman that does not come with a program.

I can agree with that 100%. They are selling contact info and fantasies. Most who need or require those services, need to buy fantasies and addresses. They are obviously serving a market. But to take that leap and and try to purchase the address and fantasy of a lady or man who isn't somehow mentally defected is quite a stretch IMO

[BC]

FWIW, I'm not against the idea of "trying" to protect people, only that methods like forcing clients to take psychological tests would be ineffectual - I'm sure some smartypants could create a marketing campaign around the idea like eHarmony has, but as far as being useful to the men and women involved...? I just don't see it.

I don't either.. why? It doesn't make good business sense.

Sure the final line is dealt with by the adults involved.  I'm not advocating protectionism but am advocating that some tangible service is provided above and beyond suppling contact to be called a marriage agency and tout wedding rings and such in business logos.  

Everybody pouncing on IMBRA should take a look at the exceptions, i.e. religious organizations, non profit, or the 'biggies' mentioned above and wonder why.  e-harmony, match.com, whatever, they are talking dating and not marriage. That's honest enuf or?

Just google Russian Women and compare the number of sites that state either bride or marriage with the number of sites that just state something like dating.

[jdk1963]

So, would something sort of like combining Fiddler on the Roof with eHarmony/Chemistry and Profiling really have any appeal for those who would also want the guarrantee that there would be no scamming?

eHarmony/Chemistry 

[jdk1963]

In addition they probably keep decent records of contacts so if anything untoward happens they know exactly who they are dealing with (credit card, address verification up front, probably even sex offender checks etc.).

Anyone ever sign up for match.com or such that can detail their requirements for BOTH clients?

No they don't.  Chemistry does to a certain extent.  I will say that both sites make letter writing through Anastasia look viable and legitimate.   

[Daveman]

No they don't.  Chemistry does to a certain extent.  I will say that both sites make letter writing through Anastasia look viable and legitimate.   

Why would you say that?  I had pretty good luck with both sites in communicating with some ladies with whom I shared quite a few interests, etc.  though I will admit, some of the matches were way off sometimes, but that was mostly in the realm of religion (matching me - agnostic - with some seriously zealot types, and one Jewish woman whom I really did like a lot until she started speaking about my conversion... uhhhh, nahhh, I'll pass... I can barely pronounce khorosho, much less trying to tackle chutspah).

Perhaps some of the ladies there have to shop for clothes at Habib the Tent Maker's annual sales event...  :evil:

[jdk1963]

Very true, Dave. Any psychological test can be gamed - the authors try to be crafty by creating series of check questions - basically asking you similar questions in slightly different ways and if your answers are consistent then supposedly you're being truthful.

Truthful would be an inaccurate description.  What they look for are consistent answers.  They incorrectly associate "the world is out to get me" with "my neighbor hates me".  You may not believe the world is out to get you but if your neighbor poisoned your dog you would could not be blamed for thinking your neighbor hates you.  The real flaw in this methodology is that if you win the lottery and take the test you're "artificially" happy, if a family member died you would be "artificially" sad, if you got knicked 7 days straight speeding you might be "artificially" angry or paranoid.  They get the results and rubber stamp you defective.  Yet the process is abused by the courts and businesses constantly.  A good psychologist or psychiatrist will use the results to find out that the neighbor killed your dog and realize your behavior is in fact perfectly normal.

[jdk1963]

Why would you say that?  I had pretty good luck with both sites in communicating with some ladies with whom I shared quite a few interests, etc.  though I will admit, some of the matches were way off sometimes, but that was mostly in the realm of religion (matching me - agnostic - with some seriously zealot types, and one Jewish woman whom I really did like a lot until she started speaking about my conversion... uhhhh, nahhh, I'll pass... I can barely pronounce khorosho, much less trying to tackle chutspah).

Perhaps some of the ladies there have to shop for clothes at Habib the Tent Maker's annual sales event...  :evil:

I can live with taking her to lane bryant  if she actually had a personality.  What I ended up with were women who had a plethora of guys who grew tired of their crap.  The closest match I came across was militantly PETA (not people eating tasty animals) which I could deal with.  She was psychotically passionate and everybody needed to be passionate about something.  Other than that she was pretty cool. 

Match engaged in baiting.  Magically the day before my subscription would end I would get a bevy of winks.  Which would lead to nothing.  When I finally had enough I photoshop'd my picture, changed my income to $100,000+, said I was 6'2" 190lbs, changed my age to 35 and let the fun begin.

Chemistry was just stupid and eHarmony was aggravating.  If you're going to require that both parties pay at least inform the paying party that the person they are interested in is non-paying and offer a means for contact. 

[Kevin]

I can't get guys to pay the $15.00 for the translate of the IMBRA questionnaires. Don't expect anyone to pay more for a background check. 
Also just look at the profiles on this forum. 80 + percent use false names and information.  The only way I could do a real background check is to have the person send me copies of passport, SSN, and complete a questionnaire.  The fact is nobody likes to give out such information. Even the good guys.   

It is the government job as part of the visa process to complete a background check on the Men. In fact the men pay for it.  The problem is the ladies are not able to see the background check and the Government doesn't deny visa based on a mental history or nonviolent criminal history. . 

So to answer the questions should an agency require a background check on the Men. The business answer is NO. if they did they client would just use another agency to save the $50.00.

(Our matchmaking service is based on the men choosing the ladies and the office interview the ladies for the men to eliminate the ones who are not interested in him prior to his arrival). Please read my site before commenting about one of my services as I clearly explain it at www.khersongirls.com/matchmaking.htm 

An agency is a introduction service. The men and women who uses such a service should have the ability to judge each other.

BTW. I have banned quite a few men from my agency. I'm sure it is one of them who is posting now.

[ECOCKS]

Chime in over in the new thread on Fair to Disclose. Could be an interesting dsicussion.

[Sculpto]

first of I do not appreciate the personal attacks.  if you guys want to have civil discussion I think you can find a more mature way to post.

second.. have a look at this.. I have not used their services and it is obviously NOT designed for foreigners.

http://vs-clab.ru/

[Sculpto]

and this is interesting.. notice.. not free for women..

http://www.laventure.ru/

[Sculpto]

and another...

http://www.apriorisvaha.ru/

[Sculpto]

the age ranges are interesting.. cut and pasted from the previous site posted.

1. Tickets to the evening ЗНАКОМСТВ must be purchased in advance, just so we can provide an equal number of men and women.

2. Total number of tickets for each evening Dating - from 26 to 40.

3. At our evening, we are happy to see nice, intelligent, positive Muscovites and residents of the nearest suburbs from 25 to 60 years.

4. Every night is different by age:
1) Women 25 - 40 + Men 30 - 50 years
2) Women 35 - 50 + Men 40 - 60 years

5. NIGHTS are held in the cafe, located in the center of Moscow (not more than 5 min. Walk from the nearest metro station).

6. For your convenience, we offer free delivery of tickets (for a distance not exceeding
5 km from the Garden Ring).

7. The most convenient and best option for you --
complete the form on this web site, informing
on what date you want to purchase a ticket.

8. Our EVENINGS - this extensive program aimed at ACQUAINTANCE. You are pleased to spend time, and we will try to help you gain the most new friends or find your second half, while making your holiday in a bright, funny, unforgettable holiday. Good mood and a lot of positive emotions, you will be provided.

9. IN THE PROGRAM
EVENINGS ЗНАКОМСТВ included:
• buffet (snacks, fruit, champagne)
• interesting contests with prizes and gifts
• playground program
• Live music
• Dance

PROGRAM MAINTAINED

Professional moderator.

[Sculpto]

wow.. and yet another..

http://www.entrust.ru/

[Sculpto]

and can you believe it.. even one more..

http://www.poznakomly.ru/

ok, so my point is.. all these sites are clearly different int heir intent than the kinds of agencies most of us used.  They are probably expensive, but, then again, 10 bucks for a freakin letter adds up pretty fast.

Sorry, I don't buy the BS that it can't be done.  Obviously it IS being done.

[groovlstk]

Sorry, I don't buy the BS that it can't be done.  Obviously it IS being done.

What exactly is "being done?" You post a few links to marriage agencies that fancy themselves as matchmakers and profess to work closely with clients to find a match. Do you really think this is unique?

And how is this relevant to your original push to force agencies to psychologically screen clients?

This is nothing new - ask some of the old timers about baracuda Baranova and other operators who acted as matchmakers.

PS: Sculpto, you go out of your way to prove to everyone here how unique and different you are - quite frankly, if there was anyone that I knew who would be red flagged by a simply psychological test it would be you. Be careful what you wish for 

[Sculpto]

What exactly is "being done?" You post a few links to marriage agencies that fancy themselves as matchmakers and profess to work closely with clients to find a match. Do you really think this is unique?

And how is this relevant to your original push to force agencies to psychologically screen clients?

This is nothing new - ask some of the old timers about baracuda Baranova and other operators who acted as matchmakers.

PS: Sculpto, you go out of your way to prove to everyone here how unique and different you are - quite frankly, if there was anyone that I knew who would be red flagged by a simply psychological test it would be you. Be careful what you wish for 

None of them are marriage agencies in the way Western guys think of them.. they are dating clubs and MATCHMAKERS with trained staff psychologists.  None of them are in the international market as their focus.  There is a massive difference in what they are offering and the prices they charge reflect it.  Most of those sites are providing services to clients with well above average income who are demanding personalized service.  We have the same thing here in SF and I am sure it exists in New York.

I never said I would force.. I just think it is a good idea if someone is in the business of introducing people to go out of their way to provide quality services so they don't have problems later.  Imagine yourself as an agency owner and a couple you introduced later turned out to have some kind of major disaster.. like real abuse or worse.  Would it not affect your life or would you just brush it off like so many insects?

ps, Groove.. you don't know me and your personal attacks are not appreciated.  You are engaging in gratuitous provocation and if you really want to play that way go over to my pick on Sculpto thread and start something there and you can see what it gets you.  Out of respect for Dan and everyone else I am not going to get into a battles here or any other thread started by someone else.