Western Hypocrisy

[Daveman]

Well dear Dave 
what can I say

for the time being here in RWD I learnt nothing but being ready to accept all the rudeness and dirty words and blamings towards people with individual points of view, nothing informative , frankly speaking

I am sorry to hear that you feel this way about your experience.  If you have questions about America or western culture, you can always ask, I'll answer you as best i can.  You can send a PM any time if you don't want to ask something in the open forum.

I knew that you would reply in such a manner and such a way ,

The red crocodile ate the purple frog.  There, bet you didn't know THAT one. 

of course I understand you and your point of view and I admit sometimes we do not know things about americans and can make false conclusions, but for God sake do not consider russians to be stupid , it is just funny how you  are able to teach and to forecast .

And it is obvious by some of the posts that i have read here, and from my own experience that we certainly don't know many things about Russia and Russians and can also make many false conclusions.  That's human nature I suppose.  I certainly don't think Russians are stupid. Far from it.

I get exasperated sometimes, and other times I feel like jumping in front of a speeding truck to end the suffering of trying to understand.  And then at other times, we hit a groove in communication and tenderness which is more incredible than anything imaginable. 


I don't really understand the last sentence though.  What do you mean by "it is funny how you are able to teach and to forecast"   Can you say the same sentence in a little different way?  I understand the words, of course, but I don't think I get what you really mean. 

No matter that I am young, no matter that I have never been abroad , I do not need to be abroad to see the World and situation developing around us here , there and everywhere of course I may not  know everything in detail , but I draw a picture in my mind already  that people are regressing in so many fields of activity and
the main thing we are regressing in our thoughts about family relations , how family should be, lacking of family culture, relations between man and woman ,unfortunately its been a fashion , some kinda  cult of international marriages, but we do not know what it will lead to,

......maybe to global mess , wars where people would just be killing each other cos they wont  understand, wont accept each other just how they are with all their directness and hypocrisy:P:P:P

I understand this completely.  I do the exact same thing.  I guess we do this all our lives regardless of where we are from.

And yeah... we'll have a big mess with wars and killing each other because of YOUR directness and OUR hypocrisy.    I see you mentioned directness first, so at least you see that directness is MORE at fault than hypocrisy!    Kidding of course... 

I know that I probably wont find a russian guy who will be  like me in some ways, I found foreign guy who understands me so far, but it does not mean that it is forever we want it to be for good of course:), we are so young and we do not know what will happen tomorrow , how can we say anything for sure, we hope and believe that life will be good and kind towards us, but we are also aware of reality...........

I don't really know how young you are... but you have your whole life ahead of you.  You will always grow and learn and of course tomorrow is not promised to any of us, in relationships or even life.  We can only create the most joy and happiness in ourselves and in those around us TODAY.  Plan for tomorrow, but never forget to enjoy and make the absolute most of what you have today.  I think that can be true for everywhere in the world, it's all we have... today.  And that's the wish I send to you... joy and happiness.  And, of course, I must add my fake hypocrisy smiles 

 
Dave

[Daveman]

I don't mean to steer this thread off topic since this post was from days ago but...  you're putting too much emphasis on a single example - although in a broader sense what you're worried about is, at least in my experience, true.

This is probably a good topic for another thread, but while you're probably not likely to meet a Russian woman who is going to nitpick each word you say or call you a hypocrite for smiling too often, you will not find a Russian woman who will take a relaxed or laid back approach to your relationship (at least not one who loves you, that is). By this I mean: If you tell your wife that on Saturday you plan to clean out the garage and on Saturday you instead decide to wax your car, she will not be happy - doesn't matter if it's the same amount of sweat or the same urgency. Changing plans at the last minute because you're tired after a long day or even at times for damn good reasons will result in some pointed questions.

You must mean what you say and say what you mean at all times. Forget to kiss her on your way to the office in the morning? Look out!

I'm not saying that she'll henpeck you to death, simply that Russian women will keep you straight and honest at all times, there's no slacking off. Ever. Don't promise something you can't deliver, and never, ever take her for granted.

I realize I've only been married for four months so maybe I'll get some time off in the future for good behavior, but I'm not counting on it My wife and I both agree that the past four months have been the best of our lives, but as JB has said before, there's a reason why Russian men drink vodka... it's that 2-3% of the time when it's necessary...

Thanks Groov.  Congrats on the new Marriage BTW!

What you posted here I completely get... This I am able to live with, and though I hate to admit it, probably really need.

Dave

[Daveman]

Actually I meant not what you gave like an answer at my question which seemed easiest for you
 But somehow I lost ( currently of forever don;t know just now) a desire to explain what I  meant because I don;t wish to have one more time conversttion a-ka

Okay, I agree that my answer to this question was easy, superficial, and actually ridiculous.  Being from the same culture, while making understanding easier, certainly doesn't guarantee it.  A quick look at the divorce rates in any modern culture, especially America, with verify this.  I, myself, am part of this statistic.

Rather than give another off the cuff answer, I decided to think about this for a day and see if I could really come up with something valid.  Of course, as I have mentioned, I don't know everything or even most about Russian culture, so this will be based on my experience,  a little extrapolation, and in some areas downright guessing.  But, it's a sincere answer so if I am incorrect, then please point out why, or add to it as necessary.

Elen:
Never think how Russians who are such rude by western standarts, such stubborn, suspicious and etc ( a full set of bad for peace life qualities)  manage to live under one roof with few generation and in communal flats ? Any explanation to such a phenomen?

Dave:
Of course, in the circumstance you mention above, you have the same cultural background, with the same "definitions" of rudeness, politeness, etc.  People with the same definitions in life *understand* each other easier.

Of course, these are generalities about 'culture', and individuals within the culture vary.

Here I would begin with:
1) Family value/responsibility -  It does seem to me that Russians take the responsibility of generational family ties very seriously, more so than America in general for sure.  The younger generation takes care of the older generation without trying to get rid of them as a hindrance.  The older generation takes care of the younger generation without the "Time to get out of the house and fly" syndrome.

This spirit of true care, not superficial care, glues families together with a very tight bond.

2) The tenacity of a pit bull  -  okay, maybe this is what we see as stubbornness. But this steadfastness under *any* circumstance can and probably is a real strength for holding a family together, and facing challenges head-on.

3) Territorial protection - in my experience, a RW is very 'territorial' and protective with her family, her man, her children, all.  Perhaps we see this as jealousy when dealing with the man, but actually it could be simply "I protect and guard everything I love".  Love being the key word here.  They really *love* each other in family.  In America, we see love as more of a feeling, a passive verb, 'to love', in our language. In Russia, they see it as an action verb.  If she loves you, you will absolutely know it. She doesn't waste alot of time saying "I love you I love you I love you", but instead DOES things that show you she cares about you, pretty much all the time if you just open your eyes to see it.  In America, we put great value on hearing the words. They put great value on the actions.

To ask your woman "do you love me?" is a mistake, because if you have to ask, she either does NOT love you, or you are *very* unaware of your surroundings.  She's not going to say it all the time, or maybe not even often because she knows that she's *showing* you, so saying it isn't really necessary.

Getting back to the point. An ACTIVE love is very bonding for a family. Everyone is spending time doing things for each other, from the grandparents down, from the younger ones up, siblings, and husband/wife.  We do this in America to some degree, but not like they do.  They take this "doing" rather than "saying" to an extreme.  I donn't knock it.  It's a great way to live each day.

4) Doting parents/lovers - in the same vein of active love, a RW is a very doting creature.  On this last visit to Omsk, my girl was doting over me all the time.  What I mean is this.  As we were getting dressed, she would face me, check my clothes for wrinkles, make me take off my pants or shirt if she saw some and quickly iron them out, brush off my clothes, gently wrap my scarf around my neck and adjust it perfectly, brush off the back of my coat.  Even if she saw a single speck of dirt on one of my shoes, she'd stop, and grab a shoe thingie and wipe it off.  (she had an uncanny ability to see things that I admit, I could have looked directly at for 10 years and wouldn't have noticed).

At first, I have to admit, I thought something like "God almighty, this woman thinks I don't even have enough sense to dress myself... what is her problem???"   I even resisted, and brushed her away at the beginning, and it really hurt her a little, I could see it in her eyes.  She gave me a look that I really can't explain, but I got the message loud and clear.

The problem was mine, not hers.  I am not used to this kind of treatment. At all.  What I saw as controlling, or weird, or anal retentive about fashion at first, is just another example of that "active love".  I'm sure the American feminazis would say that there is something wrong with this, but now I fully appreciate her actions.  It was just another way to say "I care about you".  When I relaxed, and just let her do her thing, it became a very tender moment for us each day, and she was *very* happy about DOING it.  I don't know how else to explain it.  Well, perhaps I really can't dress myself and she was ashamed to be seen in public with such a backwoods ignoramus.    that is very possible.

Anyway, I can imagine her doting over a child this way.  Making sure every little article of clothing is in place.  I saw other ladies with children doting over them like this.

She had many other 'doting' traits that I won't get into here, but I think this trait in RW is not only very endearing, but gives a strength to the family bond.

5) acceptance of responsibility - again, i can only use an example from my experience.  Our first flat was adequate, but not stellar.  I didn't see anything really *wrong* with it, but she said to me through the electronic translator - "This place is nightmarish"..  I laughed and thought  "good lord, woman, what's the big problem? We are here to visit each other, not worry about some damn apartment"  But, I didn't say this. I just shrugged.  Later, she was slamming things around in the kitchen so I walked in and asked her what is wrong.. she started pointing around at everything saying "ni lyublyu, ni lyublyu, ni lyublyu"  Now I thought "god what a whiny 'you know what' " and I just looked at her.  We finished breakfast, and she left for work for a couple of hours and then to go look at a different apartment.  Of course, she didn't want me to come look at the new apartment because I am obviously an idiot because i can't see what is so wrong with this one.  Her only comment about it to me was "you not Russia". Okay, "I not Russia".. whatever.  At this point, I was seriously considering just throwing in the towel on this one. Really.

Then she came home and said "We're moving"... we gathered our things and left for the new apartment.  Like I said, I didn't see anything wrong with the first apartment, that is, until I saw the second one.  She didn't move us into a luxury apartment, or something like that.  This new apartment was very clean, very cozy, very comfortable.  It had a washing machine (more on this in another thread later.. this damn thing became my mortal enemy), a microwave, both lacking in the first apartment. Also, now I could see something important.  In the old place, the stove was old and dirty, as was the refrigerator.  I don't really know how to explain the difference other than to say I could easily see it now. 

The point of all of this? Well, I began to think about her words and actions.  I had applied to her the American woman tendency to bitch and whine about something until WE do something about it.  She didn't whine. She made "direct comments" and then DID something about it.  She didn't like it and took it upon herself to change it. She accepted the responsibility.  Even the "you not Russia" thing became clear later. She didn't want me to go because I'm a foreigner in her country and the price for the flat would have doubled or tripled if I had been with her.  Again, my mistake for not "getting it" at first.  There are other examples of her saying something, and then doing something about it.

I think this trait of accepting responsibility and taking action is another reason they can live together.

5) Accepting situations and finding compromise - Well, I don't really have anything to point to here from my experience, but it would seem obvious that to live together in multi-generational environments, there would have to be a huge willingness to accept each other and find compromise to dwell together. 

This willingness to accept a situation would absolutely be a strength in a marriage because life does have ups and downs sometimes, and I think this trait in a RW would allow her to remain by your side through thick or thin.


Okay, this has become an epic post, so I'll stop here.  Whether you agree or not, I did put in the thought and time to sincerely answer your question, so now please give YOUR thoughts and comments.

Dave

[catzenmouse]

Dave,

 Well said. I enjoyed that "epic" post very much. I also agree with the active love vs. passive love. I know it is hard for Elena sometimes as I lived on my own for so long that I easily fall back into the doing everything for myself mode and I need to pay more attention to that failure on my part to let her be the wonderful loving soul that she is.

Ken

P. S. gotta love those Omsk girls!

[SANDRO43]

Daveman, very insightful AND articulate contribution, IMO .

[LEGAL]

Daveman,

As a Russian woman I can say that you are absolutely right saying about  active love of  doting RW.

   

Olga.

[Kuna]

Daveman,

Excellent post... I'll look forward to reading more of your experiences.

Ya know... even just your comments on the apartment helped me rationalise a small and unimportant comment my girl made during our second stint together in Kiev.  Sharing experiences is the best way to learn!

Cheers,

Kuna

[Patrick]

Well written and very well said,Daveman. I liked what you had to say. Thank you..

[Elen]

Okay, this has become an epic post, so I'll stop here.  Whether you agree or not, I did put in the thought and time to sincerely answer your question, so now please give YOUR thoughts and comments.
Dave

 In my question I meant people who were from DIFFERENT generations and from DIFFERENT families and who managed to live under one roof ( though they possessed such qualities - from American view of point- which would lead only to killing each other if American viewpoint would be true for majority of Russians)

what you wrote was all fine ( though an idealistic in some way) But I was thinking about another when I asked my question - mostly about that one you described in

6) Accepting situations and finding compromise - Well, I don't really have anything to point to here from my experience, but it would seem obvious that to live together in multi-generational environments, there would have to be a huge willingness to accept each other and find compromise to dwell together.

Add to it that many Russians have experience to live under one roof with another families and try to explain where real rudeness-stubbornness-suspicious fit in here and try imagine if Americans with their "friendly" attitude could manage to survive in the same conditions ( with their inability to accept a right of others to have opposite ideas how people should live  )

[ScottinCrimea]

Daveman, I've experienced everything you have described and more and thought I understood the underlying feelings behind it, but you put it into words that makes it even more clear to me.  I'm impressed and grateful.  There were many times I thought she was treating me like a child, as you said, when in reality she was treating me like a loving RUSSIAN wife.

[wxman]

Add to it that many Russians have experience to live under one roof with another families and try to explain where real rudeness-stubbornness-suspicious fit in here and try imagine if Americans with their "friendly" attitude could manage to survive in the same conditions ( with their inability to accept a right of others to have opposite ideas how people should live  )

Elen, I have to agree with your statement. Many Amercians have a hard time having family or friends stay in their house for more than a few days, without going crazy.  I could not imagine many handling years of it.  We love our "personal" space too much. Heck, many get upset when someone's dog poops on their manicured lawn. We have been programmed over the years that we need our space, we need a big house, we need a big car, etc. Reminds me of the words of one of Randy Newman's song. "It's money that matters, here what I say, It's money that matters in the USA."

[Daveman]

Thanks everyone, I am glad I was able to share something that others found worthwhile in some way. 

Elen, I'm not avoiding your questions, this one, or the other one, but I'm taking some time to think before replying.  I'll get back to this thread in the morning.

Catz,  Yeah, those Omsk girls are something...  Here's a pic of me with SECOND favorite Omsk girl, Miss Lyubasha, and probably the only woman in the world I am capable of really understanding, Russian or otherwise! 

Dave

[BC]

Elen, I have to agree with your statement. Many Amercians have a hard time having family or friends stay in their house for more than a few days, without going crazy.  I could not imagine many handling years of it.  We love our "personal" space too much. Heck, many get upset when someone's dog poops on their manicured lawn. We have been programmed over the years that we need our space, we need a big house, we need a big car, etc. Reminds me of the words of one of Randy Newman's song. "It's money that matters, here what I say, It's money that matters in the USA."

It's a bit strange, but when my in-laws visit for extended periods, three months or so it really doesn't bother me.  They have a way of getting around and doing things very unobtrusively.  They simply know when to 'disappear' for a while without any words being said. A totally different experience than western visitors where anything above three days becomes a chore.  Dad will go work in the garden and chop a few trees into matchsticks and Ma will spend a lot of time reading or knitting or cooking and chatting with my wife and kids.

[Daveman]

Add to it that many Russians have experience to live under one roof with another families and try to explain where real rudeness-stubbornness-suspicious fit in here and try imagine if Americans with their "friendly" attitude could manage to survive in the same conditions ( with their inability to accept a right of others to have opposite ideas how people should live  )

Here, in search of a valid answer... There is really no debating that rudeness-stubbornness-suspiciousness must be far less prevalent in these communal environments.  (As far as I am concerned, I've pretty much gotten over the rudeness part of my thoughts... probably will eventually see the light on the others as well, more quickly  though if you would just tell me what that girl up thread could have been thinking in the post about the 'law', why do you think she would do that?  I doubt she was paid by the government as a member of a secret network of FSU girls to bring down the Evil Giant by driving our men crazy  so, any honest ideas?)

Comparing to america... I think maybe it reduces down to 'selfishness' vs 'selflessness'.  We tend to focus a little outward and more inward toward self, perhaps you tend to think some about self, but also more outward.  This, if true, would also have to negate another comment I made in another thread about FSUW giving little regard to feelings.  This actually cannot co-exist with our current premises.

We do have communal situations here, in Atlanta, with several families living under one roof, but they are Mexican, not American.  I could not possibly live that way, at least with other Americans.  I'd absolutely snap and kill everyone in the house.  I need my space.  I live with my Dad in a fairly large house that is certainly not cramped, but there are many times I have to get out for a while because I *feel* cramped.

BC makes a great point also.  There *is* something different about Russians here.  When I was in Russia, she took a couple weeks of vacation, so we were together 24/7 on most days.  Usually in a situation like this, I would need space and would have to get away for a while.  But not with her, she just kinda made me feel like there always was space.  How did she do that?  She is absolutely non intrusive. So how can someone be both a fireball and non intrusive at the same time? I have no idea.

Or I guess it could simple be that we are much more intrusive by nature. But at any rate, you are correct that most Americans could not, at least not without some great change in habits and thinking, live in a communal environment. 

The 1960's saw a number of communal living situations, but that also was a very different mentality with a lot of marijuana to create peace in people. 

God Bless Borsht

Dave

[I/O]

Catz,  Yeah, those Omsk girls are something...  Here's a pic of me with SECOND favorite Omsk girl, Miss Lyubasha, and probably the only woman in the world I am capable of really understanding, Russian or otherwise! 

Dave

Dave: But ya gotta remember the real story.  "Sitting Luba" as she is known locally has actually well and truely made her decision.  She has her eye firmly on "Uncle Vista" who is across the street "Peeking" at her from the underground draining system.  So the story goes, she waited every afternoon to catch a glimpse of him as he surfaced from his workplace under the streets.

I/O 

[Daveman]

Dave: But ya gotta remember the real story.  "Sitting Luba" as she is known locally has actually well and truely made her decision.  She has her eye firmly on "Uncle Vista" who is across the street "Peeking" at her from the underground draining system.  So the story goes, she waited every afternoon to catch a glimpse of him as he surfaced from his workplace under the streets.

I/O 

great shots, I/O.. Man, it's really cool to see someone else there!  But remember, I can't *remember* the real story because I don't KNOW the real story.  That's one problem with the language barrier and the inability to make complete sentences in another language.  Just knowing a bunch of words isn't enough.  I only get about half or less of every story!!  I knew their names, but I thought he was stalking her!  j/k  had no idea why she kept telling me "she look, wait, she look, wait".  I thought she wanted me to wait for something... lol.. But it seems everything makes sense in due time, eh??  Now, though, I will impress her with this newfound knowledge! 

Dave

[LEGAL]

The story of   "Sitting Luba". (Lubinsky prospect is the name of street where the "Sitting Luba" is )

The 63 y.o. German earl Garsfort who was governor-general of Omsk got married to a young Siberian woman. His happiness did not last long. Lubasha had taken ill - pulmonary tuberculosis, and very often she sat on her bench, admiring her last sunny days.

Olga.

[I/O]

Olga: Quite correct according to my research also, BUT try telling that to the locals, particularly those who prefer the more romantic notions.

I/O

[TwoBitBandit]

The story of   "Sitting Luba". (Lubinsky prospect is the name of street where the "Sitting Luba" is )

The 63 y.o. German earl Garsfort who was governor-general of Omsk got married to a young Siberian woman. His happiness did not last long. Lubasha had taken ill - pulmonary tuberculosis, and very often she sat on her bench, admiring her last sunny days.

I've sat on that exact bench next to Luba.  Sometimes I think about Luba, and the girl who compelled me to come to Omsk.  Ah, the ones that got away...

[SANDRO43]

The story of   "Sitting Luba". (Lubinsky prospect is the name of street where the "Sitting Luba" is )The 63 y.o. German earl Garsfort who was governor-general of Omsk got married to a young Siberian woman. His happiness did not last long. Lubasha had taken ill - pulmonary tuberculosis, and very often she sat on her bench, admiring her last sunny days.

And what's Uncle Vista's part in the story???? Sympathetic rat-catcher ? Tunnelling robber of the nearest bank ? Pretty please ?

[I/O]

And what's Uncle Vista's part in the story???? Sympathetic rat-catcher ? Tunnelling robber of the nearest bank ? Pretty please ?

From what I can gather sifting fact from the local romantic fiction and it does take some sifting, I think he was watching, but simply hopefully.  The besotted worker hoping to catch her eye.  Olga's report as I understand is the real story, but the locals don't want to know about that.  I suspect Luba was the untouchable dream of Uncle Vista.  He was simply a drainage worker. (As I understand)  But legend has it that there was something more happening.  Pretty please, is, I suspect, his actual story.  Much like a few of the WM who go to the FSU now.  (Ooops I think the devil made me say that) 

I/O

[Elen]

And what's Uncle Vista's part in the story???? Sympathetic rat-catcher ? Tunnelling robber of the nearest bank ? Pretty please ?

No He is just a plumber Stepanych (слесарь-cантехник Степаныч) who works hard for people would not drown in their own sh22t Somebody should be busy with sewerage while others are busy with romantic

[SANDRO43]

No He is just a plumber Stepanych (слесарь-cантехник Степаныч) who works hard for people would not drown in their own sh22t Somebody should be busy with sewerage while others are busy with romantic

So Stepanych is just up from his murky dephths for a breath of fresh air, and maybe a peek under passing girls' skirts (not much luck with Luba, there) ?

[Elen]

Who does need cast iron Luba if there are plenty young student- girls in mini skirts whose tradition now is to came to Stepanych and tough his helmet for good luck before exams 

[I/O]

Whatever the case is now, me thinks Uncle Vista never got "lucky" with Luba, but who knows.  Strange things happen in murkey places.

I/O