'Code of Conduct' for Men....

[BillyB]

I don't care if the name changes to "guidelines" instead of "code" if most seem fit. The name is not the important thing and the code of conduct should not impose anything on anybody. I look at this as the same as the 10 commandments listed on the forum. Some men recommend the 10 commandments to newbies and I have seen positive reactions from newbies reading the 10 commandments. http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?pid=2

I do think some good men out there still need more tips. Some of these men have been out of the dating game for a while and don't know how to even dress when going on a date.

Re: RWD run by people from another forum.

I have never been one to give much consideration to what is stated elsewhere. I have my hands full dealing with issues brought up here. I think, in fact, what we are witnessing is that some of our guys feel maligned by what is occurring elsewhere, and they want something to be done about it from RWD. That is going to be difficult - but to a large extent, initiation of a project such as this one seeks to do just that.

Actually what I was talking about happened here at RWD. Mod5 erased a lot of what was happening in Wiz's thread. I told Kvinna it was unprofessional of her as a forum owner to tell members here how to act and I asked how she would feel if a forum owner came to her forum and did the same and threaten to blacklist her members. She said it happened before at her forum. Twice, I asked if she accepted that behavior from those people or kick them out. She did not answer either time.

Men will not write with a free mind at RWD if the thought police is allowed to control what people write here with threats made here of taking the posters name and photo and putting them on a blacklist where the women at AD are allowed ridicule.

[Daveman]

I really didn't think there would be such an outcry over the document itself, but more of that we were going to try to include opinions directly from AD.  And even that is a good idea really.  My thought there was two fold: by working together on something, we'd both chill out and realize that neither of us is really bad, and there are actually quite decent folk at both places. Secondly, it would give us a large sample of empirical data upon which to base some of the additions.

For example, I thought we could do a mini survey, and ask 25 or 50 ladies to vonlunteer.  The survey would simple ask opinions to questions such as:

1) What are the top three things a man can do which will immediately end a relationship?

2) What are the top three things a western man does which you feel disrespects you?

3) What are some habits of a western man that annoy you?


Etc etc etc...  I just pulled those out of the air for this post.

If they would actually participate honestly in such a survey, and we took the time to actually compile the data into anonymous statistics, we would have some extremely valuable information into what really goes on inside the cultural difference, among other things, and some of it would surely surprise the heck out of us.  Nothing could beat something like this for real life usable information.  Even real life experience can't, because that experience is tainted with our own perspective and thoughts.

Some of the ideas in the Conduct document should be based on this kind of information.  "Respect your lady" is simply too vague when there are some things a Russian woman finds disrespectful that a Western man does not.

That was my thought anyway... and it more than damn good... if we could get the participation.

Dave

[Gator]

Chelchov wrote,

it's best to put those info of Russian mentality and culture on FAQ instead of codes of conduct for men.  FAQ can give more answers about Russian mentality and tips for dating them.

In some key ways the intended guideline for conduct is exactly as you suggested.

The guideline will help men behave in a manner that is more respectful of the women they meet.  Most women are turned on by men who show respect, but many men are at a loss.  

This is accomplished by identifying areas where well-intentioned Western men may not understand the culture and RW mentality. The guideline would address these areas with "Do and Don't" actions.

Thus, some substance of the guideline may already be in the FAQ, so thank you for pointing that out.

The guideline will help men with good intentions but ignorant of the implications of their maladroit ways.  It will also accomplish more than that, hopefully.

[Admin]

I don't care if the name changes to "guidelines" instead of "code" if most seem fit. The name is not the important thing and the code of conduct should not impose anything on anybody. I look at this as the same as the 10 commandments listed on the forum. Some men recommend the 10 commandments to newbies and I have seen positive reactions from newbies reading the 10 commandments. http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?pid=2

I do think some good men out there still need more tips. Some of these men have been out of the dating game for a while and don't know how to even dress when going on a date.


Actually what I was talking about happened here at RWD. Mod5 erased a lot of what was happening in Wiz's thread. I told Kvinna it was unprofessional of her as a forum owner to tell members here how to act and I asked how she would feel if a forum owner came to her forum and did the same and threaten to blacklist her members. She said it happened before at her forum. Twice, I asked if she accepted that behavior from those people or kick them out. She did not answer either time.

Men will not write with a free mind at RWD if the thought police is allowed to control what people write here with threats made here of taking the posters name and photo and putting them on a blacklist where the women at AD are allowed ridicule.

Billy,

My guess is Kvinna would not tolerate much, if any, dissenting opinion on AD - but then again, I am ignorant of what is allowed on her site because I have not (and will not) make the investment of energy to read it. I simply have more than I can handle already and cannot add to it.

As for the "thought police" - I have posted several articles which were prepared by lurkers/members of Planet-Love and RWD - and none of them were flattering about any of us. The simple fact is - there are people reviewing every word written here - and they will use them to further their own agendas - and it matters not a twit what we try to do about it. There are only two possible alternatives - One alternative is for the members to feel a 'chill' about posting and they opt to reduce their posting behaviors - and that is the ONLY sure-fired measure to defeat the "thought police." The other alternative is to continue as before with the full awareness of those who will, inevitably, seek to impugn us for our choice to pursue a path which is unusual and non-traditional.

As I stated earlier, I am open to suggestions.

- Dan

[Gator]

Daveman wrote,

"Respect your lady" is simply too vague

Exactly! 

The title of the so-called Code of Conduct could be "Guideline for How to Respect FSU Women".

It is all about respect.  And it should embrace more than "your lady" to include all RW you write and meet.  Scammers do not deserve respect, but that is another issue.

[LEGAL]

Olga, don't you consider the fact that girls could want to be on the picture with a guy - they just don't want that guy to post them on the internet with detailed story how they pleased each other in bed (the worst scenario). Showing photos to friends, family it's a bit different i think. And why there were no complaints from the part of these women before - it's just they don't know about the destiny of their pictures as most don't have the access to the computer (if they use the agency) or they don't read such forums.

There are adult people on RWD, if a guy  does something wrong members will not keep silence. In  concrete case - Bill's case please show us "detailed story how they pleased each other in bed". You have posted link of Dilemma on AD. What for?  to show that Wis is more sex tourist than Bill? You know girls on AD even don't read properly. Please show us "detailed story how they pleased each other in bed" in Dilemma. Now girls on AD  chew over their own imagination and Kvinna dictates guys on RWD what to do. "Why there were no complaints from the part of these women before"? There are no complaints and now maybe because girls are not against it. Please ask Sofia why she did not make complaints before? 

Olga.

[TexasBoar]

ScottinCrimea wrote,
 
This is an example of someone who is critical and yet offers an alternative.  Thank you Scott.

It is easy to say the words, “I don’t like it”. 

It helps the committee to say, “I don’t like it because….”   

And it really helps to say, “I don’t like it because….and instead I suggest you do ….”

Please be assured that we are interested in all comments and will consider them fully.

Okay . . . how's this:

I don't like it because Kvinna---who has proven herself an obstinate, vindictive troll here and a tireless, underhanded, honorless opponent of everything RWD purports to promote and stand for on her own forum---is part of the process, and suggest that instead, you shitcan her immediately and replace her with someone reasonable---like Lily, who has distinguished herself here with HER posts.

And, I don't like it because it feels like more of the creeping paternalism I've noticed lately, and because the men it MIGHT benefit, the ones being pointed to throughout this thread, are highly unlikely to ever see it, or to recognize their behaviors in it, let alone heed it, if they do.  I suggest the committee come up with a list of Cross-Cultural Red Flags & Danger Zones instead, of the sort that in my military experience, we were all shown before being stationed abroad . . . what to expect, what not to do, how to interact successfully with locals, etc.  Words matter, and the words being used to frame this conversation, at this point, are overly moralistic, paternalistic, and controlling.

As someone who has yet to make a single trip, and who may not, comes to that, I have very little standing in this matter.  But you asked for constructive feedback, and that's mine.

~Boar

[Sohkay]

Gator,
"Guideline for How to Respect FSU Women" sounds very strange. In one respect, it sounds like a handout from a Diversity 101 college course. A manual of political and social correctness. The subject you're really addressing is "How Travel in a Foreign Culture (And not make a fool of yourself)".

I've now spent plenty of time in Ukraine...enough to encounter some of the guys coming from the USA, Germany, Cyprus, England, etc. I've sat next to them at internet cafe's whilst they attempted to select a mate as a person might evaluate livestock. And then they tell me about how disposable these women are. And they walk around town, wearing their NASCAR jacket, jeans and a day-old beard. Or they are in their 60's, and sitting in a cafe', interpreter in tow, chatting with a 20 something cutie (who's got a look of 100% dis-interest on her face...and THEN YOU SEE THEM OUT ON A SECOND A DATE...AND SHE HAS THE SAME DISINTERESTED LOOK!). Personally, I have really appreciated these guys being there. They've taken a normal gentleman (me) and made me look godly. I've appreciated the presence of the clueless in this search. Why do you want to make it harder on the good guys by reducing the number of clueless? (And to be honest, I now understand how clueless...clueless people can be.  Nothing short of an intense, multi-year behavioral modification therapy, or neurosurgery is EVER going to change the clueless to clueful. (This makes the group taking this project on look like the Don Quixote club))

Between the bias shown towards female posters and now this, I see a trend. A trend towards political correctness and a bias towards female posters. Bottom line though, it's Dan's board and it's a reflection of how Dan wants it.


Best regards,
Sohkay

P.S. As a result of your post, I tried a Ketel One on the rocks for the first time. VERY nice vodka. I've since had it with Tilley's Sweet Vermouth cocktail onions, and Paisley Farms Marinated Brussel Sprouts. Just outstanding. Very clean liquor, smooth on the palate. If you can get the Ukrainian SV Luxe vodka, do try a bottle. It's smoother than the Ketel One.

[Daveman]

Cross-Cultural Red Flags & Danger Zones

IMO That is absolutely perfect... as you say, more of a field survival manual. 

Dave

[Gator]

Texas Boar and Sohkay,

Both of you wrote intelligent pieces, and I see some beneficial points in your opinion (besides the Vodka advice - BTW, I drink mine with tomolives).

The clueless are clueless because they are clueless in most aspects of life.  I doubt we will ever reach them.  Nor will we divert the sexual predators - it will have the same effect on them as junk mail has on me.  

I certainly could have benefited from some direction when I went there, because even with years with the UN and considerable travel experience and the best of intentions, I somehow made a mess. My girlfriend rubbed my nose in it each time, and that was good for me.  I perhaps could have done worse, or done it with a less forgiving woman.

moralistic (I hope not),  paternalistic (probably so help us when the draft words come out), and controlling (not intended).

Cultural Red Flags & Danger Zones - excellent.  However, I think it would have a chapter on women, which is the only part we are attempting to cover.

[Bruno]

... introducing a code for women would be a bit stupid wouldn't it? ...

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2018.0

Don't think that Shadow is a bit stupid... and it seem that the topic ( link up ) have turn in a "code for women"...

In reality, all the information for build a "code for men" or a "code for women" are already existing in these forum... but for a newbies, it mean read more of 77000 post... and since the search engine is not a top... a resume, code, FAQ ( choose the name ) will be interesting for newbies...

So resume, code or FAQ have become a need due to the grow of RWD... it is not more possible for a new member to read everything from the begin...

What will be great is find someone who have time and have a lot of courage, who can good write for make a resume about several topic... one page by topic ( age difference, prenups, russian soul, GCG/scammer/pro-dater, agency )... once the little book finish, make a PDF of it and seed it everywhere...

Oupsss... i go to fast... maybe something for the future... it is already difficult enough for the actual "code of conduct" ...

[Admin]

Between the bias shown towards female posters and now this, I see a trend. A trend towards political correctness and a bias towards female posters. Bottom line though, it's Dan's board and it's a reflection of how Dan wants it.

It's interesting. Over the course of the years, it seems like each and every time I have made an appeal for people to behave in a civil manner, I am accused or promoting "political correctness."

The simple truth is - I could not care less about being PC. What I care about is that people have a venue where their voices may be heard. Is *that* PC? Admittedly, I am not well-versed in the definitions and connotations of PC, so I do not know. Maybe someone might enlighten me. If it *is* PC, well, I guess my objective of creating a platform for civil discourse must be tagged PC.

The establishment of some guidelines for guys to use is another thing which I do not see as PC - but with my gross ignorance of PC (and serious lack of interest in learning the definitions), I guess there again - maybe it is.

Next was the "bias towards female posters." I suppose I could read that in one of several ways. Perhaps because of the eruption the past couple of days, I am interpreting it to mean that my tolerance of Kvinna is seen as some form of "bias" in her favor. It is not.

I find the behaviors of some at Antidate reprehensible. I have addressed, in private, the issues of people coming onto RWD and promoting the agenda of other boards, or making threatening comments. Neither is appropriate.

Now...... I see the negative comments congealing into two camps. In one camp are those who are opposed to the initiative because Kvinna is a part of it. The other camp seems to focus on rebelling against any sort of written guidance. Both are, under the circumstances, entirely understandable.

As I have stated openly many times in the past - I may not be managing RWD very well. There may be others who are capable of doing a FAR better job than me. If the membership wishes for someone else to take charge of one, or more, of these issues (or other issues) - speak up and let's see if we can gain member consensus. I assure you, it will not hurt my feelings one bit to acquiesce to someone else in managing these issues to a more effective outcome.

Speak up.

- Dan

[Fiorella]

Okay, I already got a problem with this!!!
Why is it that the men are seen to need a 'Code of Conduct'???
I see this as just another attack on men, something I would expect to see from Antidate & the FemiNazi's out there, not from RWD.
Why not a 'Code of Ethics' for the women???
How about a 'Code of Ethics' for people in general???
Ya' see where I'm going with this right???
Maybe I'm being a little oversensitive but I'm damn tired of being a man & the brunt of every little thing & time that a woman feels she is wronged by a man. I see this as an equal rights issue right off the top & I see men as usual losing the battle.
So I guess I should say, what else is new!!!

Why? Because it is YOU, american men who is gullible in the situation of today, when russian women are seen as silly, easy-get, low-maintenace sexy-dolls. You and your american marriage mafia. YOU started to buy attention and loyality of girls a lot younger then yourself and was so surprised when this made scam subject born.
And now it is YOUR work to make this change. Otherwise YOUR russian wives will be seen as russian prostitutes that you have bought for a few dollars and who are happy to have a second-hand shirt but live in Great America.

[Fiorella]

Because it is a men forum... mainly newbies men seek information here and not on antidate... but you are right... maybe the antidate ladies need to start a similar topic on antidate and build a "code of Conduct" for women...

Simply, don't kill the project before it start... let see the result and like always here, the membership will have the last word...

Richard, you are agency owner and you have the reputation to be very select about your ladies AND male customer... I think that your comments can be very interesting for make something good from these "code of conduct"

Antidate ladies have women's conduct and women who don't accept that get not so warm welcome there.

[Fiorella]

What good & to what end does a 'Code of Ethics' for men serve?
You really think some numbnuts loser will answer the questions truthfully if he knows his answers may jepordize whatever this "Code of Ethics' is supposed to police? I think not.

Because this board is mainly populated by men so it is a good place to start with that side of the equation. If the "numbnuts" doesn't answer questions honeslty now he never will but we cannot focus of that. Idiots will always be idiots and liars will always be liars. This will only work when honesty is involved. The liars will end up on the AD blacklist eventually.

The ACoE has a magnificent potential. The problem is with getting people to actually subscribe to it and to the ethics involved. Many are Leary of it thinking that it has no teeth. It is up to the individuals involved to put teeth into this. Who will do this? If AntiDate is involved then the teeth become much sharper.

Only time and effort and initiative will tell.

Ken

Good point. Ken.

[Admin]

Antidate ladies have women's conduct and women who don't accept that get not so warm welcome there.

Fiorella,

Would you be so kind as to translate - and publish the "women's conduct" guidelines - and re-post them here? Or if not a re-post - at least point it out to us so that we can see them?

Thanks,

- Dan

[LEGAL]

Dan,
this is "women's conduct" on AD.

Why? Because it is YOU, american men who is gullible in the situation of today, when russian women are seen as silly, easy-get, low-maintenace sexy-dolls. You and your american marriage mafia. YOU started to buy attention and loyality of girls a lot younger then yourself and was so surprised when this made scam subject born.
And now it is YOUR work to make this change. Otherwise YOUR russian wives will be seen as russian prostitutes that you have bought for a few dollars and who are happy to have a second-hand shirt but live in Great America.

It is said enough.

I agree with Bill's words that are addressed to AD:

So think about what you are saying and about what I am saying.

You say that I had sex with all these women.
I said I did not have sex with any of these women.

You are really saying all these women are tramps
I am saying all these ladies are virtuous

You are saying these women have sex with a man for tea and cake
I am really saying all these ladies are innocent

Who should be on the black list???
An American man who said that the women he met in Russia have virtue??

Or YOU the Russian woman who said all these fine ladies are tramps??

You really think that decent Russian woman will become overwhelmed with passion at the very site of an American man and give him wild sexual favors for a little bit of TEA AND CAKE????

Who is slandering Russian women??? YOU ARE!!!

Who is creating a bad stereotype for Russians???? YOU ARE!!!

Olga.

[Admin]

Dan,
this is "women's conduct" on AD.

It is said enough.

I agree with Bill's words that are addressed to AD:

So think about what you are saying and about what I am saying.

You say that I had sex with all these women.
I said I did not have sex with any of these women.

You are really saying all these women are tramps
I am saying all these ladies are virtuous

You are saying these women have sex with a man for tea and cake
I am really saying all these ladies are innocent

Who should be on the black list???
An American man who said that the women he met in Russia have virtue??

Or YOU the Russian woman who said all these fine ladies are tramps??

You really think that decent Russian woman will become overwhelmed with passion at the very site of an American man and give him wild sexual favors for a little bit of TEA AND CAKE????

Who is slandering Russian women??? YOU ARE!!!

Who is creating a bad stereotype for Russians???? YOU ARE!!!

Olga.

Olga,

I had the impression Fiorella was talking about something else. Possibly something commemorated in writing which represents Antidate's perspectives on the questions of appropriate, and inappropriate, conduct on the part of RW.

If they have published such a document, I think it may be very helpful for us here at RWD to see, and understand.

- Dan

[Fiorella]

Reading all of this thread... 

All I can say is...  

This is a bad idea.  Who gives sh!t about imposing code of conduct on western men like us.  I don't see the point of having all of this so-called cr@p.  If you think it's a good idea, why not put code of conduct on Russian women so it would be fair to western men?  If you are planning to put that on RW, I wish you good luck since it's obvious that you don't understand Russians.  Like Richard, I am tired of having to deal with double standard BS and more punishments imposed on men while women get free pass and leniency.           

Internet is full of code of conduct of Russian women - just look at multiple so-called "antiscam" sites and marriage agencies and you will see it.

[LEGAL]

Olga,

I had the impression Fiorella was talking about something else. Possibly something commemorated in writing which represents Antidate's perspectives on the questions of appropriate, and inappropriate, conduct on the part of RW.

If they have published such a document, I think it may be very helpful for us here at RWD to see, and understand.

- Dan

Dan,

Please ask you wife to read AD and what they have written about your two members  and about men on RWD.

Olga.

[Fiorella]

I just don't understand why some men don't want to publish standards of acceptable behaviour when those standards are meant to help women that are just like those that we love![/b]

I'm all for it even if it only help a few women...

Kuna

Why? Because these men want to have a feeling of full safety and impunity in all they do. It is Russian woman who MUST to prove every day and every hour, with every step of her.

That she is not a scammer.
That she is not a golddigger.
That she is not a GCG

and many-many more.

And western men don't MUST anything. They are good decent gentlemen with dollars in their pockets and they can do all they want.

[LEGAL]

It is Russian woman who MUST to prove every day and every hour, with every step of her.

That she is not a scammer.
That she is not a golddigger.
That she is not a GCG

and many-many more.

Really? I'm Russian woman but I never have had such problem to prove who I'm  even living in America. In your opinion, Fiorella, I'm a woman who  is "happy to have a second-hand shirt but live in Great America" but it is your opinion of Russian woman but not American woman or man.

Olga.

[ScottinCrimea]

Why? Because these men want to have a feeling of full safety and impunity in all they do. It is Russian woman who MUST to prove every day and every hour, with every step of her.

That she is not a scammer.
That she is not a golddigger.
That she is not a GCG

and many-many more.

And western men don't MUST anything. They are good decent gentlemen with dollars in their pockets and they can do all they want.

Where the heck did this vitriol come from?  No one here said anything of the sort.  If you took the time to read this forum, you would see that as a group we condemn this attitude.  In fact, this is exactly the tye of attitude that we are trying to change with the code of conduct.

But really, the bottom line is that no one can buy anything that isn't for sale.  As long as there are bad women who are willing to do anything for money, there are bad women who are willing to buy.  It's a problem on both sides, so attaching all of the blame to one side and blasting out at them won't solve anything.

The posts this week have been my first experience with the Anti-Date site.  I had no preconceived ideas.  But I must confess that if the attitudes of the women from there that I have seen displayed here are any indication of the site in general, I'm not impressed with the attitudes it promotes or its ability to provide anything positive. It seems to encourage the type of thinking that most of us Western men have grown very tired of dealing with.  The "all men are evil and us women are only victims" mentality.

[Fiorella]

Olga,

I had the impression Fiorella was talking about something else. Possibly something commemorated in writing which represents Antidate's perspectives on the questions of appropriate, and inappropriate, conduct on the part of RW.

If they have published such a document, I think it may be very helpful for us here at RWD to see, and understand.

- Dan

Dan, you know very well, what is official politics of AntiDate.

Antidate is fighting against ALL forms of scam, including cases of men and women. Also we don't accept women who are ready to go on anything possible and not possible for get foreign man and get rid off their country. Unfortunatelly they still do exist and it is sad to see how they are ready to lick everyone's ass for a few dollars or even for a compliment.
 

[Daveman]

Without trying to create a firestorm, I would like to point out something here.

Why? Because it is YOU, american men who is gullible in the situation of today, when russian women are seen as silly, easy-get, low-maintenace sexy-dolls. You and your american marriage mafia. YOU started to buy attention and loyality of girls a lot younger then yourself and was so surprised when this made scam subject born.
And now it is YOUR work to make this change. Otherwise YOUR russian wives will be seen as russian prostitutes that you have bought for a few dollars and who are happy to have a second-hand shirt but live in Great America.

If you read closely everything in this post.. really... read it... with the exception of "You and your american marriage mafia"... which is a reference I don't get...

1)  american men are gullible in the situation of today - how many idiots send money for visas expecting a beautiful young arrive at his door? If that's not gullible, I don't know what else could be

2) when russian women are seen as silly, easy-get, low-maintenace sexy-dolls -  see number 1.  Plus - How many idiots are shocked, even the ones who travel there and actually meet, to find that these are not actually silly easy to get babes but rather actual women with their own thoughts, opinions, and dreams?

3) YOU started to buy attention and loyality of girls a lot younger then yourself and was so surprised when this made scam subject born.   -  Many did and still do want to buy a trophy wife, lavish her with everything under the sun... word catches on, money talks.. and boom a market is born.  Luckily we don't have many of these guys here, but probably a number of our "guests" fall into this category.

4) And now it is YOUR work to make this change.  I half disagree here... it's the work of both sides to make this problem go away.

5) Otherwise YOUR russian wives will be seen as russian prostitutes that you have bought for a few dollars and who are happy to have a second-hand shirt but live in Great America.  This is exactly how many ignorant Americans think about a RW marrying an American man.. She will do anything to live in America because it's a better life.  I've heard the word 'prostitute' used more than once by numskull morons.  Of course, many American women truly marry for the bucks, but don't see themselves as prostitutes. They "chose wisely".


Really.. this seems to be such an emotionally charged issue, from both sides really, that the underlying or even the obvious message gets lost somewhere.  Until we remove the emotion from our thinking, we simply do not see clearly.   My point is, there are wild accusations on both sides, but some of the more wild statements (though not in this post - except for 'mafia') can and do stem from a element of truth.. just step back and think about it.

Dave