Does history make it difficult for Germans?

[Lily]

I am perhaps wrong, but did not the USSR retain many Nazi POWs after the war and not allow them to return to Germany?    Supposedly this was done to help rebuild the country. 

Are these the Germans (and their children and grandchildren) that Elen and others list as now emigrating to Germany?

Those unlucky soldiers were generally either shot, or made their hard way home in some 5-10 years after the war. They had almost no chances to survive in the USSR, given the all-Soviets hate for Nazis.

Actually we started with associations of Russians about German language as a 'military' language...The events that came after collapse of USSR have very little to do with this. As we can see, this school practice continues in Russia.

[Elen]

Lily! WHAT is that school practice ( and propaganda) you are speaking about which could affect present days Germans and which sounds in your interpretation like some sort of claim to Russian school program? WWII was our history a huge part of it and one  the most important events for the USSR So no "surprise" such many time is devoted to studying that war in Russian schools And it's not a fault of Russian schools' program that Germans was that country which was at opposite side in two world wars at the territory of Russia. So it would be hard not to mention those events in programmes But as far as I recall even in soviet time it was always stressed it was war with FASIST Germany . And it's only 6-7 years old boys ( and people which are at the same mentality level) can't see difference and transfer bad atttide to Germans now .

[Lily]

Elen, my point was that it is probably the Soviet and Russian school program that caused association of 'German language' with 'military language' first of all. See Jazzy's point that for her German language is primarily the military association. See Sofia's story about what words came to her son's mind when he saw Germans. Personally I observed lots of similar illustrations on Russian people of all ages and occupations.

With this point, I did not talked about the present Germans and Germany and any affection of school programs on this. The thread discussion later developed into the newest time. But my point was the language.

[Elen]

Ans MY point is if there is such an association then it's due German's history but not due to Russian school program

[WmGO]

Kuna,

I did not have the time to look at the weblink you posted about WWII Russian loss of life, so I do not know if it accurately sets forth the real losses to wit: many people and even historians make the mistake of equating Soviet losses during the GPW with *Russian* losses. However, that is incorrect.

While only a small portion (and I mean that in relative terms) of the historic Russian territory was overrun and occupied by the Germans, the entirety of Belarus and Ukraine was overrun, destroyed and occupied. By far, Ukraine was the greatest victim of WWII suffering the heaviest losses. In terms of a percentage of population lost the greatest victim was Belarus.

Of the 20 million or so "Soviet" deaths, approximately 8 to 10 million were Ukrainian, and 3 million were Belarussian. Of the remaining "Soviet" losses about half were ethnic Russians and the other half were Asiatics conscripted from east of the Ural mountains.

Every May when the Russian Federation celebrates May Day the Western media repeats a poorly written and old AP wire story that mistakenly equates "Soviet" losses with "Russian" losses. You will see that historical error repeated in the next couple of weeks.

Regardless, I do find it puzzling that FSUW would have any interest in German men given the history of the GPW. Don't get me wrong people, I like Germany and German people a LOT, it is just kind of puzzling though....

[BC]

Regardless, I do find it puzzling that FSUW would have any interest in German men given the history of the GPW. Don't get me wrong people, I like Germany and German people a LOT, it is just kind of puzzling though....

WM,

In my rather meager experience with FSU women (only one) I find grudges are not held long, yesterday being accepted as unchangeable, today's efforts of importance and tomorrow - well.. when discussions turn to getting it done tomorrow all hell breaks loose.   

When I was stationed in Germany, I rented a house from an old German WWII vet.  We shared a few beers talking about the old days.  He was in some air defense unit shooting down Allied planes but finally ended up on the RU front, was captured, spent a few years there and barely survived before finding a way to return home.  His only grudge was against RU for the way he and other POW's were treated.

I'm sure his grudge was well founded, but even he had to eventually let it go upon his demise.  I'm sure his experiences were horrible but OTOH am happy it ended and was not carried over to the next generation.

[Elen]

German man is asked a question " You were married to your frau for 40 years What were the best 5 years of your marriage?"
" 5 years of Russian captivity"
 

[BC]

Elen,

Yeah he might have chuckled over that one...

[Bruno]

Ans MY point is if there is such an association then it's due German's history but not due to Russian school program

Curious... Are RW liking French men ? I remember my history learn in school... and something about Napoleon trying to invade Russia...

[ScottinCrimea]

I remember as a small child playing army and "shooting Germans".  In our childlike minds way back then "enemy" and "Germans" were synonomous.  Perhaps it was because I had several uncles fight them in WWII and one never made it back.  It may have been just an idea that came down from my family.  I imagine that if my uncles had served in the Pacific I would have been shooting "Japs".

I see no evidence of such thinking in my family now, though, so time seems to have healed those old wounds.  Interestingly enough, a few years ago we discovered that I have a German cousin, a product of one uncle's "war effort" there.  Last year he came to the US to visit his American family and there were none but the warmest of feelings.

[SANDRO43]

I remember my history learn in school...

The history books in my school days never mentioned the fact that Great Britain, France, Italy and some other European country sent troops to Russia in support of the Whites after WWI ended, which may have accounted in part for the Soviet mistrust of Western Europeans.

[Lily]

Curious... Are RW liking French men ? I remember my history learn in school... and something about Napoleon trying to invade Russia...

Bruno, you are reading my mind. After having read Elen's post about WWII as the significant part of our history, I thought of the war of 1812 and asked myself why this part of Russian history is less popular than WWII. If we talk about schoolbooks, the Napoleon war is mentioned in many literary pieces for sure, but rather briefly comparing to the Hitler's war.

IMO besides the remoteness in time, there is one remarkable reason for this. The WWII is indeed one of the biggest achievements for the USSR, and right after the war the USSR and its army was on the peak of its worldwide recognition and prestige.

The reason would be that the USSR needed to show itself from its best possible side to its own citizen. It needed it very much indeed. The system needed to be well-liked by the citizens so the USSR put the utmost efforts to popularize the very best of its achievements among people, and to hide weaknesses. No effort in showing the cruelness of Nazis and heroism of Soviets was too big. And no one is to de-glorify the Soviets in this war, of course.

The Russian Tsarist Empire did not needed this sort of mass popularization. Bruno, did you also notice that Russians of the early 19C had no hostility towards the French generally? All educated Russian people spoke French. Russians gave jobs to the taken French soldiers. A few years after the Napoleon's invasion, French soldiers were even accepted into Russian army - know how George Danthes got in Russia and was welcome into the Pushkin's society ?

If someone would ask a Russian what does he thinks of French, they would likely not mention something related to Napoleon's army. Btw, does anyone here know how to say 'Haende hoch' in French? 

[DKMM]

As a 3rd Gen German/American, this thread interested me.

Yes some RW really don't like Germans, kinda like how the English don't like the French.  Its not personal, but in general almost like a rivalry between countries.  Germany beat them in WWI, and lost in WWII and both sides probably don't forget it.  Funny how Hungary did the exact same thing but you don't hear much from Russians about Hungarians.

Germans by their nature don't like outsiders.  I felt it a bit myself when travelling there.  Some of that I think comes from their historical position in Europe having been under pressure from many sides.  They never lost a defensive war, starting from the Roman times onward.  The big mistakes were two wars of aggression for which they paid dearly (and were clearly their own fault).   Germany will never be the same after the world wars.

[BC]

Germans by their nature don't like outsiders.  I felt it a bit myself when travelling there.  Some of that I think comes from their historical position in Europe having been under pressure from many sides. 

Don't confuse the 'cool' reception for dislike (similar to RU in this respect).  Lived there 17 or so years and never felt like an 'outsider'.  Being able to communicate helps in any relationship.

There is an expression here; Warmer weather, warmer people.

[Lily]

Don't confuse the 'cool' reception for dislike (similar to RU in this respect).  Lived there 17 or so years and never felt like an 'outsider'.  Being able to communicate helps in any relationship.

There is an expression here; Warmer weather, warmer people.

Same in my opinion. I worked for German businesses in Russia for a few years and worked in Frankfurt for about 6 months. Not a lot, but also can not tell that they unwelcome strangers. They evaluate people on merits.

[SANDRO43]

Btw, does anyone here know how to say 'Haende hoch' in French?

Haut les mains, I think .

P.S.: and, in case you're contemplating "raiding" other countries in addition to France, here are some other equivalents of руки вверх! :
Hands up !
¡ Arriba las manos!
Mãos ao alto !
Mani in alto !