Back to Rodina

[AnastassiaAsh]

I have just read this thread. What an adventure, DKMM! 

As others advised better not to rush, not to rush with anything. Better come back home to the US, into your environment and think for awhile. Visit another time and maybe several and then think about engagement. But if you are more or less sure it is better not to drag either.
But I think no matter what you do and when, don't commit financially too much, I mean within reason. I think buying a small $300-$500 ring (not fake) is ok for a promise/engagement period with the promise of a big one later in the US. And in my opinion, no it won't look 'cheap' in her eyes, well it shouldn't, and if it does then again it can be a little (or big?) red flag in your eyes! Do you want that kind of lady projecting this on to all finances in the US? I think no matter how great your lady is, smart and beautiful, she should still EARN it. Earn it by still having strong feelings to you during those 90 days in the US, earn it by still remaining your potential fiancee in the US and so on. You should give her a chance to reveal herself to the end, both for you and for her. It is an absolutely different life here, you will have to see how this person will adapt to these changes, I mean how she will be handling these kind of difficulties when her character will be revealed the most. As you said you can buy a bigger ring later. That's to me is just being careful and responsable. And it is not like you won't help her with other things financially while she is waiting for her visa, like helping her with 'communication with you' what ever that may mean: internet, cell phone, calling cards, computer......

Yes, probably these days Russian ladies got even more spoilt than 10 years ago and expect big rock right away, but I am sure it is not the intention of men on this board, so better stick to the style and values you have and not worry too much if she will be disappointed or not. If she truly loves you she won't. And more over you will explain to her WHY you are doing it. I wouldn't bring a big ring in Russia also because it is a big chance it will be stolen or misplaced. Why adding such worries for yourself? More over there will be many more and bigger expenses following her arrival, including the same wedding. SO you HAVE to be wise and cautious. And later when you decide to marry I would start with $1,000-$2000 ring and upgrade every 2 or 3 years or something like that. No need to give $5-10,000 ring right away. Better to show her 'the process' of trying to earn for this ring, that you are saving and that it still means much to you, because usually RW don't have a clue what lies behind such a rock, that it has nothing to do with his salary but rather how much every month he can save for it, which is different.

Oh, also, I wouldn't disregard JC's opinion of this woman, she met you guys both and she, more than anybody here actually, has a right to express her opinion, and there should be some value in it, because she saw her and understood her in her own way, like between people of the same culture and as a woman looking at another woman, as if you would for example look at any AW and understand her. If you and her are going together well, I won't worry about it too much but I would just pay a little more attention to JC vision of her. What if there is nothing now, but in the US it will be like Bang! i remember JC was saying something about that....

In any way, good luck DKMM, wonderful trip report and a thread!

Anastassia

[Sohkay]

Anastassia wrote, "And later when you decide to marry I would start with $1,000-$2000 ring and upgrade every 2 or 3 years or something like that. No need to give $5-10,000 ring right away."

And in my head, I can hear Madonna singing,

"'cuz we are living in a material world,
and I am a material girl"

DK,
If I met a girl with this philosophy, I would dump her. A woman who is so focused on spending tens of thousands of dollars of a family's money on a ring just isn't my type of gal. The temporary engagement ring will be a good test.

But like jb said earlier, just slow down. You have much homework to do about this girl before you get to the ring stage.

[AnastassiaAsh]

What!    

Sohkay, cool down a little bit. We all know that every person will spend according to how much they can afford. DK was talking about $5,000 wedding ring, and there are some (maybe lots) of members on this thread who spent more, so I gave these figures as an example. It can be your own range, what ever. It is another topic. (will anybody dare to start this one? I wonder)

All I wanted to say is that don't put into this too much AT ONCE, but upgrade later to the ammount you think is ok. That's all.

[Sohkay]

Nastya,
My post was made with 100% coolness!

[Mir]

Anastasia

Frankly earning a ring or anything else does sound rather strange considering that once they are married all he has will be hers and can spend it as she pleases.

[Sohkay]

Mir,

You wrote, "...once they are married all he has will be hers and can spend it as she pleases."

WHAT?

Have you been married before?

[AnastassiaAsh]

Anastasia

Frankly earning a ring or anything else does sound rather strange considering that once they are married all he has will be hers and can spend it as she pleases.

Mir, why is that strange? I wasn't talking about her getting a job and earning money herself to buy herself a ring... This is AM/RW marriage is very risky in itself, nothing is guaranteed and after she proves herself then go ahead and treat her with the nice ring she deserves....not back in Russia, when it is still so far away from her coming to the US.....it is different case with marriage visa if somebody wants to get married in Russia legally and live there for a while, there are couples like that...

Well, once they are married, everything they will make after that will belong 50/50 and both of them will have to make decisions what to spend on what, hopefully NOT as she ALONE pleases. I didn't quite get what you meant by your comment, Mir.

[Mir]

S

No, but that is what marriage means (at least in theory)

Anyway I don't think husband and wife are like pets kept by one and/or the other so they keep performing tricks to earn rewards.'OK now I have 5000 marigemiles I can buy a $5000 ring  etc' or they keep a good behaviour to get a reward like payprogression.

[Mir]

Anastasia

All marriages are risky and a RW-AW marriage is not anymore risky then a AM-AW marriage.
When people marriage they should do it for love and after the marriage it should not be a constant test of one couple by the other. Here you are advising an AM to give a token of love, you are advising that he can increase the size of the diamond as years go by depending on how the wife performs, like a progression.
So what about the woman? What will she give in return if the man earns it? Or just because she has the chance to move to USA from Russia that should be enough for her and her sole job is to keep working on pleasing her husband for the privileges she can earn?

[catzenmouse]

All marriages are risky and a RW-AW marriage is not anymore risky then a AM-AW marriage.

In general relationship terms I agree with this. But with a FSUW/AM (or any Western Man) there is a lot more risk involved on her side. In many cases the woman will be giving up everything she has and everything she has ever known. I would call that more risky. Just a thought.

Ken

[Thor]

Anastassia wrote, "And later when you decide to marry I would start with $1,000-$2000 ring and upgrade every 2 or 3 years or something like that. No need to give $5-10,000 ring right away."

10,000 dollars for a ring???????????????????????? Is this normal?? Maybe for a very rich guy but who can afford a ring at this price on a normal income?? Or have I missed anything here?

[ScottinCrimea]

Afraid I have to agree with Mir on this one.  The idea of "earning" a bigger ring over time doesn't sound right to me.  It puts all of the expectations on the wife to perform while the man sits back and decides when she has scored enough points to warrant spending money on her.  Sorry, but it's just not my idea of an equal marriage.

[Mir]

Ken
agreed>if anyone is taking more risk in AM-FSU marriage it is the woman.

[Daveman]

Afraid I have to agree with Mir on this one.  The idea of "earning" a bigger ring over time doesn't sound right to me.  It puts all of the expectations on the wife to perform while the man sits back and decides when she has scored enough points to warrant spending money on her.  Sorry, but it's just not my idea of an equal marriage.

Agreed, but then also, for the woman (or man I guess) to equate a piece of carbon dug from the earth to be even remotely representative of either the quality of a man or the relations is absurdly asinine.  If I have the desire to give her a gift, whatever that might be, it is a gift from the heart. If she arbitrarily expects something, then snowballs could perhaps coagulate and coalesce into iridescent polychromatic gems of burnished profusion in the depths of Hades and I'll bestow upon her one of those. 

A gift is just that.. a GIFT. It must be freely given and should be appreciated as such.

Dave

[catzenmouse]

snowballs could perhaps coagulate and coalesce into iridescent polychromatic gems of burnished profusion in the depths of Hades

Daveman,

 Put down the thesaurus and back away slowly.... you've had a little too much...

[Sohkay]

For Daveman and catzenmousenburgerstein...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Song text

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Evelyn, a modified dog
Viewed the quivering fringe of a special doily
Draped across the piano, with some surprise

In the darkened room
Where the chairs dismayed
And the horrible curtains
Muffled the rain
She could hardly believe her eyes

A curious breeze
A garlic breath
Which sounded like a snore
Somewhere near the Steinway (or even from within)
Had caused the doily fringe to waft & tremble in the gloom

Evelyn, a dog, having undergone
Further modification
Pondered the significance of short-person behavior
In pedal-depressed panchromatic resonance
And other highly ambient domains...

Arf she said

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notes and comments

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Pondered the significance of short-person behaviour
In pedal-depressed panchromatic resonance
And other highly ambient domains..."
"This entire song is a reference to the Lumpy Gravy recording sessions. For the un- or half-informed: In the Lumpy Gravy sessions numerous people were closely gathered around a grand piano to speak on many subjects of significance and insignificance. At the same time a large weight was set on the piano's sustain pedal so that it was always depressed. This has the effect of setting up a very spacey and ambient resonance as the piano strings vibrate sympathetically with the sound waves created by the persons speaking. Since all of the strings of the piano are vibrating, the musical effect can be referred to as pan-chromatic (that is, all chromatic tones are heard). Another musical use of pan-<music-word> is 'Pan-Diatonicism'. This is what you'd get if you went and slammed your forearms across only the white keys of the piano - one could say that the noise that came out was 'Pan-Diatonic'."

Robert Moore (evilbob@tbag.tscs.com)
Taken from: NOTES AND COMMENTS - the free opinions appendix to the alt.fan.frank-zappa newsgroup FAQ ver.2.15 part 3 of 4 - Put together by Vladimir Sovetov (sova@kpbank.kemerovo.su)

Back to index

[catzenmouse]

Sohkay,

 Thanks for that "blast from the past"!

Ken

P. S. How'd you find out my real last name? 

[AnastassiaAsh]

Well, either I can't express myself right for the third time, or you, guys, are from the other world or something!

Sohkey, don't you agree with numbers or the very concept? Don't pay attention to numbers, as I said within everybody's means.

Mir, you kind of took the idea and put it in ‘mocking rags’, and now it looks silly…pets performing tricks to earn rewards…, how did you get from my line of thought to this?! I was  thinking that - if for example you give her a big ring, that you will never upgrade for the rest of your life, and you will give it to her when she is still in Russia, and then she comes here and within 90 days it turns out it doesn’t work and she goes back to Russia, and there is no marriage, THEN what do you do? Why add financial devastation to emotional? Silly! Why not give her small rock, and then later bigger one for the wedding? And when you give a big one for the wedding, why not upgrade it later in 10-15 years or what ever it might be!!! Are you guys that unsuccessful? I hope not. Are you going to be in the same place money wise 10-15 years later? Do you want to? Ok, preference can be different, if you don’t want to upgrade her ring you can invest into a second house or whatever, just make it FOR HER! Also, if you give her the biggest rock you can afford for the wedding, and in a year marriage falls apart for whatever reasons, and she won’t give that ring back, what then?? Amazing! Well, as sometimes Russians say ‘I can’t put my head on your shoulders!” Only, please, later don’t come crying for being fooled and robbed by a Russian woman. I am so tired of such stories. Everything is in YOUR hands.

Here you are advising an AM to give a token of love, you are advising that he can increase the size of the diamond as years go by depending on how the wife performs, like a progression.
So what about the woman? What will she give in return if the man earns it? Or just because she has the chance to move to USA from Russia that should be enough for her and her sole job is to keep working on pleasing her husband for the privileges she can earn?

Well, Mir, if your wife cheats or spends too much money, of course you can keep showering her with things and upgrading her ring and keep telling her that you forgive her and still love her  --- but for me this is NUTS! Yes, if your wife behaves excellently and doesn’t disappoint you, of course give her a gift, what about the 5th anniversary, or the 10th?? If you are still very happy and thank God every day for your wife, why not giving her a bigger ring for the anniversary??

And what about the woman? And why shouldn’t she please her husband? And why shouldn’t it be her only goal? And why shouldn’t she be grateful that he brought her here and why shouldn’t she give something in return? Both man and a woman have to give and take, take and give. If one only gives and another only takes, that’s wrong. What can a woman give in return? Of course her love, attention, affection, loyalty and everything else she can make her man’s life easier. What’s wrong with that? Do you want your wife proudly take your ring and then do nothing in the marriage?

10,000 dollars for a ring???????????????????????? Is this normal?? Maybe for a very rich guy but who can afford a ring at this price on a normal income?? Or have I missed anything here?

Thor, that’s the number that KD himself wrote about, I just picked that up and made some examples. I am saying again, numbers don’t matter, what matters is progression, the growth! At least for me.

Afraid I have to agree with Mir on this one.  The idea of "earning" a bigger ring over time doesn't sound right to me.  It puts all of the expectations on the wife to perform while the man sits back and decides when she has scored enough points to warrant spending money on her.  Sorry, but it's just not my idea of an equal marriage.

Scott, nobody said that husband would just sit back and decide…no, it’s an equal marriage, both husband and wife work on the relationship, and yes, there are expectations from both sides.

Agreed, but then also, for the woman (or man I guess) to equate a piece of carbon dug from the earth to be even remotely representative of either the quality of a man or the relations is absurdly asinine.  If I have the desire to give her a gift, whatever that might be, it is a gift from the heart. If she arbitrarily expects something, then snowballs could perhaps coagulate and coalesce into iridescent polychromatic gems of burnished profusion in the depths of Hades and I'll bestow upon her one of those. 

A gift is just that.. a GIFT. It must be freely given and should be appreciated as such.

Dave

Dave, it seems you are against diamonds. Well, I suppose it will depend on the preference of a woman, there are some who care less about rings too, but they would probably want to have something else then, maybe you can compensate for a big house with a pool or something… I agree with you about gifts. But we are talking about a special thing here. What would you give her for the wedding as a token of your love??

Well, I am trying to save YOUR money, guys, but if you don't want that then...well....after all who am I to give some advice on this? I suppose all of you are happily married to gorgeous young and smart women, are very successful and handsome, and I am just another poor Russian girl talking nonsense... Ok, just don’t listen to me, get scammed and robbed, build marriage on whatever, but bear in mind you have only 2 K1 visas in your pocket. And, please, don't think I am too materialistic, because this word doesn't even stand close to me, how much I do and who I am, and you don't know me personally at all, and if all the women were like me (especially money wise) it would be like heaven here already and these kinds of bouards and such notion as 'scam' wouldn't exist.

[Sohkay]

Nastyanichka,

You wrote, "and if all the women were like me (especially money wise) it would be like heaven here already and these kinds of bouards and such notion as 'scam' wouldn't exist."

I agree with you 100%!

[ScottinCrimea]

Again, if a man does his homework and goes about the process in the right way, there shouldn't be the need to act in certain ways in case it "doesn't work out".  What kind of message does it send to a fiance if you express pessimism about her or your future together in any form?

I think the idea of giving a gift such as jewelry to celebrate a milestone such as a 10th anniversary is a great one, but I cetainly wouldn't base them on exected behavior or performance.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Nastyanichka,

You wrote, "and if all the women were like me (especially money wise) it would be like heaven here already and these kinds of bouards and such notion as 'scam' wouldn't exist."

I agree with you 100%!

What!!     

How will you explain this then:

If I met a girl with this philosophy, I would dump her. A woman who is so focused on spending tens of thousands of dollars of a family's money on a ring just isn't my type of gal.

Nobody is talking about being focused on this, you just took this out of my context.

You must be kidding me, Sohkeichik!   

[Sohkay]

I see your point. And it is pravda! I would dump a woman who focused so intently on regular ring upgrades. But as you further explain yourself, I see that you are not this person. It was just the way you expressed yourself in English. And please, forge on with your English...it is coming along admirably! I see you taking it to...a whole...'nother...level.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Oh, wow, thith ith tho good! Awethem! I thike it a thot!  Definitely nektht level!  Thoikechik 

[Sohkay]

Ith tho funny.

[DKMM]

Nastyush,

I appreciate that advice you gave.  Its great to have a RW opinion on something like this.  I kind of like that incremental approach in theory but I'm with Scott on this one.  She isn't getting the rock unless I am 100% dam sure.  Its probably not going to happen because of that, but I'm bringing it in case. 

My brother said that's like putting a bottle of whiskey in my bag in case I want to drink it later (and thus it will make me more likely to drink it) but really I have no desire to pull this trigger without being perfectly ready.

I found a good ring, and it could be considered a starter ring at 4k.  That's about what I'm spending on the trip to put it in perspective.  The rock is fine for a wedding and she can upgrade the rather basic setting when she gets here.

I am just not interested in dating for years.  I'm either going to engage her or will dump her at the end of this trip.