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[Daveman]

Okay, going way off into off topic orbit mode...

Daveman,

 Put down the thesaurus and back away slowly.... you've had a little too much...

Hah!  Hey, I'm recovering nicely from my thesaurus addiction. Now I write in this ridiculous polysyllabic manner only when I am either receiving good pay, or being a goofy smartarse...   

Dave, it seems you are against diamonds. Well, I suppose it will depend on the preference of a woman, there are some who care less about rings too, but they would probably want to have something else then, maybe you can compensate for a big house with a pool or something… I agree with you about gifts. But we are talking about a special thing here. What would you give her for the wedding as a token of your love??

Anastasia, my comment really wasn't directed at you personally, and this really isn't about Russian women... to me it's about life's priorities.

I'm really not as anti-diamond as I pretend to be.  I really do think large solitaire rings are not very pretty on a woman's finger, and diamonds are the least pretty to my eye (except for true yellow ones).. I prefer emeralds or fire opals, but that's beside the point.  What really chaps my hind end is that all of this - the engagement, the wedding, the honeymoon - has become so commercialized that it is now a big Marriage Industry.  I despise when women gather around another woman when she becomes engaged and make comments on the quality of the ring, the quality of the man, or the amount of his love for her based on the size of a ring, or the size of the wedding (which the bride's parents are supposed to pay for by the way), which is absurd because the prices for everything are artificially inflated almost exponentially solely because it's a wedding, and for any 'expense to be spared' is projected to represent a 'lack of love or devotion' in some way, thus invoking 'guilt responses' in everyone involved.  A typical wedding can run anywhere from $10,000 to $30,000... that's absolutely insane.  To me, any wedding other than a private ceremony with a few CLOSE friends and family is ridiculous.

This is all nonsense to me.  I should not need a 'token' of my love because the absolute most valuable possession I can offer to her is my entire life, my heart, my soul.  And those are really the ONLY things which are truly mine to give.  The fact that this most valuable gift I can possibly give to her isn't enough, that she also wants "something" more... it just doesn't make sense to me.

I adore giving  a special woman something beautiful and watching her face light up, seeing her wearing it with pride, all of it - even a massive diamond ring if she *really* thinks it's beautiful and wishes for one.  I just hate when it is artificially expected because of bogus guilt trips and incessant advertising such as in the case of an engagement.

Dave


P.S. Sorry for a bit of thread hijack to your T/R DKMM

[Daveman]

I am just not interested in dating for years.  I'm either going to engage her or will dump her at the end of this trip.

DKMM, maybe the flower needs a little time to blossom?? I'm not saying years, but, why so black/white with the approach?  Maybe having this notion in your mind will put undue pressure on yourself to make a decision before the relations are ready.  Just a thought...

Dave

[DKMM]

Its all good Daveman, the TR part of this thread ended on page 5 or so.  i'm all for evolving threads that serve a purpose.  

I agree with you too...but I don't think a nice diamond is expected by a good FSU girl, it should still be quite a surprise.

Honestly I'm in no rush.  But I already know her quite well.  I think my case is different than most because she speaks perfect English and is quite the talker.  It really helps accellerate matters.  My gut will tell me when/if the time comes.

[Mir]

Anastasia says:

What can a woman give in return? Of course her love, attention, affection, loyalty and everything else she can make her man’s life easier

So the man gives the rings and the woman gives the above.
As man is giving the rings in return for the above he does not need to give: love, attention, affection, loyalty and everything else....... Cool.

[ScottinCrimea]

It all depends on the size of the ring. 

[Mir]

So size does mater after all

[Kuna]

Oh size does matters! 

Women might say it doesn't but they're lying...   

[AnastassiaAsh]

Anastasia says:

So the man gives the rings and the woman gives the above.
As man is giving the rings in return for the above he does not need to give: love, attention, affection, loyalty and everything else....... Cool.

Hahahahah! Wow! Mir, I have been watching your posts, and I like them a lot, you are a very intelligent, romantic and sweet guy. Where on earth do you get these ideas from my posts? Or maybe just to 'bite' me a little?!

Let's put it this way, I am Christian and try to follow the notion of love and marriage from the Bible. If you want to understand me a little bit better, please, read my other posts under my profile, you will see where I am coming from. Marriage is based on all of those things I mentioned from both women and men, and both can appreciate each other and both can give presents to each other or do what ever that will respresent their appreciation. And the verb 'can' here can be replaced with 'should' or even 'must' depending on a person's opinion.

[KenC]

Nastyush,

I appreciate that advice you gave.  Its great to have a RW opinion on something like this.  I kind of like that incremental approach in theory but I'm with Scott on this one.  She isn't getting the rock unless I am 100% dam sure.  Its probably not going to happen because of that, but I'm bringing it in case. 

My brother said that's like putting a bottle of whiskey in my bag in case I want to drink it later (and thus it will make me more likely to drink it) but really I have no desire to pull this trigger without being perfectly ready.
I found a good ring, and it could be considered a starter ring at 4k.  That's about what I'm spending on the trip to put it in perspective.  The rock is fine for a wedding and she can upgrade the rather basic setting when she gets here.

I am just not interested in dating for years.  I'm either going to engage her or will dump her at the end of this trip.

[/b]
DKMM,
You are setting yourself up for failure, Dude.  Why the "all or nothing" approach?  Your brother is spot on with his comments.  By taking the ring, you are already half way to being engaged.  If this woman is that close to being the future Mrs. DKMM, why in the world would you dump her if she doesn't make the grade and graduate to "fiancee status" on this trip?  Slow down and do this right.  This may not be the trip, but maybe the next one will do it.  You are mentally painting yourself into a corner.  A corner you will regret IMO.
KenC

[AnastassiaAsh]

Moderator, can you please separate some posts to another thread about the ring?

Ok, DKMM, you have your own plan figured out, that is great. Please, keep us in the loop after you are back.

I agree with you too...but I don't think a nice diamond is expected by a good FSU girl, it should still be quite a surprise.

I agree.

Daveman, I really enjoyed your friendship with a thesaurus. That was cool to read.
As to rings and weddings. Well, I see where you are coming from. I would say I have the same feelings about weddings. We had a very beautiful but at the same time not expensive wedding, and we were very glad about how it all turned out. We got the best for a very good deal, and you won’t believe it when looking at the photos. Besides we knew we had other very important expenses on the way, so we did all this wisely.

Size of the diamond. I suppose those women who care about the rock would care about the size, those who don’t won’t. There are different women out there. To start with the small/medium one is ok because it is not that spread in Russia yet and she probably won’t put that much of a meaning into it. Also it is ridiculous to buy a ring more expensive than you can afford just to impress her or something like that.

[catzenmouse]

DKMM,

 I know that it is your choice as to how you do this, but I have to agree with your brother, KenC, Daveman, and others who find this "All or nothing" thinking very strange and very possibly destructive in nature. If you are this far from confident in your future now I don't see how this next visit will eliminate all the lingering doubts you have. Even if it does, why not just consider going ring shopping together and look for something simple while you are there. There are plenty of pitfalls to be found in this journey, no need to create another one.

FWIW,
 Ken

[Mir]

Anastasia

Thanks for the kind words.
I am sure you are a lovely lady with a heart of gold and as I understand you stood by your husband when he was ill.
I am sure you did not mean it in this way but just the idea of earning rewards in a relationship sounded peculiar.

[KenC]

 

Why is it guys abandon their normal way of doing things in the fsu?  I know that travel and time is a big price to pay, but this is the rest of their lives we are talking about here!

I don't know about others, but I dated many women before I met my wife.  None of them (including my wife) was an "all or nothing" proposition after a few dates.  A relationship takes time to be nourished and grow into something special.  It cannot be done on demand just because it is inconvenient or too expensive to continue.  If you force a relationship one way or another, it will come back and bite you in the ass.

DKMM you have displayed all the actions of a man NOT READY to get engaged.  Go spend some more time with your honey and see where it goes.  The ring and the possibility of getting engaged is ridiculous at this point.  BTW so is dumping her just because you do not want to "waste" another trip.
KenC

[DKMM]

Hi all!  What fun I'm having spending my holiday weekend preparing for a test on Monday....

anyhow, I am appreciative of the thoughts and comments on here.  If I was a wimp and couldn't handle people criticizing me, then I shouldn't post my somewhat unconventional ideas on RWD!

I'm ready, that is not debatable in my mind.  I just know that by the time this trip is underway, I'll know whether she is the one or not.  If she's the one, we go from there.  If she's not, time to move on.  I'm very decisive.

I didn't go to Russia to find a girlfriend...

[Gator]

DKMM,

As always you wrote a fine trip report.

Let me review.  You have decided it is time in your life to marry.  That is natural as one reaches the ripe age of 30 and grows weary of the bar scene in America.  In fact, all of us are “hardwired” to live as couples.

So far, so good.

All you need is a woman.  You have decided she should be a RW.  Yes, you speak the language somewhat.  Yes, you have studied Russian history and people, including three other trips to meet RW.  Yes, you feel a kindred spirit with Russia, or at least Russian women.  And most men have decided on marriage to a RW with far less experience with them than you.

So far, so good.

You take a fourth trip and meet four women.  One really appeals to you.  She is reserved at first, even avoiding kissing you for two days.  Yet, you like her personality, her values, her goals, her sister, etc.  E and you eventually connect on the third day, and you are smitten.   Okay, this happens. It has happened to me twice in Russia.  It is inexplicable when it happens. 

So far, so good.

Now the next step is of course a long holiday together.  I gather there is some time conflict working where you feel compelled to speed the process.  And you are taking a ring in case you decide to do what you expect to do – namely, ask her to marry you.   

You have some reservations because you are not planning to give her the ring that you would give her if you were more confident.  You should have reservations.  You have spent only four days together. 

Not good.

You describe E as a reserved woman, as did JazzyClassy.   There is much more to such women than she is expressing.   Still waters run deep.  In contrast, someone like S wears her heart on her sleeve.   E is clearly more mature and intelligent than S, and I understand your selection.  Yet, I think you need to spend more time together than an initial meeting and a holiday in DR.  Meet her parents and live as a couple. Have at least one good disagreement other than your saying “kakashka” (conflict resolution is very important in an enduring relationship). Then decide. 

Do you believe E is as far along in her thinking about marriage as you?  I mean, if you proposed, would she say "yes"?

[Gator]

About the ring.  It is symbolic of your love and your hopes for a future life together.  Do not cheapen it with anything fake.  Nor do you have to make it something expensive. 

If a happy marriage does result, she will cherish the ring forever.  The ring could become so sentimental that she would never trade up to a bigger stone.  So be sure that you will be proud of it - she may be wearing it for a long, long time.

[DKMM]

Bolshoe spasibo Gator!

I in fact purchased the ring today and believe me its very real and not cheap.  I thought the same thing, get a rock that she will keep because I know she will not let me upgrade for a long time.  My journey with E is ongoing, even in the past 3 days I feel like we are so far ahead of where we were a week ago.

Yes, she's ready as long as I prove to be the right man.  I have a very high confindence that she would say yes if I asked her the 2nd day of our next trip (i'm not planning to do that though, I promised myself and others I would wait at least a week into it).  That confidence is based on the kinds of things she's been sharing with me lately and not necessarily a desperation on her part.  She's very complex by nature yet somehow we seem to share each other's feelings on everything.  Its inexplicable really.

We only spent 5 days together true, and only the last 2 of those as a bona fide couple.  I've always stuck by my rule with RW that what happens when you leave Russia counts.  And what's been happening since I've left her side is what drives me towards wanting to marry sooner rather than later.

Also, a time conflict exists its true.  If I get engaged now, she can be here in September.  If I don't get engaged now, I can't see her till september and she can't get here till May '08 at the soonest.  We've already talked logistics (hypotheically of course) and she prefers to K-1 and so do I.  As I see it now, the way things are going I would much rather take the "risk" than live 8 extra months without her. 

I'll be sure to fight with her over something.  We've had our disagreements and she's just as headstrong as the typical RW.  Its all making me hope I can get some I-net access on my next trip...no I'm not going to come on here and do a poll to ask if I should pull the trigger.   

[Jazzyclassy]

Well reading all this make me laugh and at the same time I feel absolutely deep sympathy towards DKMM , I told not to post in his thread in order not to somehow spoil great impressions of DKMM's trip here , but am sorry reading all these fake things make me just  realise how shallow and ignorant people are........ the few  ones who come and visit Russia , yes I can not find another words for such behaviour call me bad person I wont be offended


Once again my vision of all these things

First of all even lovely Gator fallen under the influence of DKMM fake fascination about this girl, I have nothing against this girl, once again I love my boy and  I do not need anything from DKMM. Even my boy told that this girl sounds like a very very strange person to him . Just I see it all not clear there is something dark about her. I liked DKMM as a wonderful friend and person ,once again repeating why I decided to post my opinion, cos he seems to be genuine and friendly and so so naive and she is not like that , she is a dark horse  , very mysterious person ,who knows with what record and what kinda past she had and  all I remember she was asking and asking about me , deeply interfering into my soul, when she never ever told anything about her life, I hate such thing when people are wangling out the infomation , meanwhile they will never tell anything about themselves. Very reserved, secretive, some kinda joker in the pack

Even Gator told about the ring, I never expected such reaction from him , wow come on guys open up your eyes,  which ring are you talking about ? He knows her only 4 days! 4 bloody days and already a diamond ring, god then Gator and DKMM I have been your penpal on this site for like 4 months or something shall you both give me a car ? and to Lily too she also was your penpal    that is just nonsense. It is unbelievable , personally me I can not understand this, maybe American way of thinking is like that - Oh I see this girl well she looks pretty nice smile, shall I propose her and buy her now, hmm yeah I will do!- that is just crazy to me ,sorry

My boy and me we are 2 years together and we never  talked things about the ring the way too much , of course he told that one day he will give me a ring and so on , but only when we are both ready and things, it will be soon but not now, I mean when we knew each other for 4 days , we were only happy and were falling in love and were so glad to know and know each other, do not take into consideration age factor, it does not matter, sometimes people at 20 can be much more mature than at 30.........

One more thing  I understand DKMM in his search for a wife and family it is natural it is all good, but there is no need to be rushing dear DKMM just go on holidays with her know her more  spend time with her, why you do not want her to be your girlfriend first , only then wife.
I do not think you hear people telling you wise things.  You are blind with love and affection , you need to be very careful with such people like her.

I know people will judge me and tell how can  I give my honest opinion about this girl in such a way , but  that is my own perception of this situation. The thing is I judge only by my impression about her plus I did not like her, of course I might be wrong and completely wrong, but I know , I see her from the point of view of  my personality , I would never buy a ring to this girl if I was DKMM after knowing her for 4 days , only if I knew her enough and she really proved she is genuine

Somebody once told me that people need to gain  respect and trust I do believe into this statement, she did not win nor respect nor trust yet , that is just only to my mind.

DKMM of course that is your choice and your life and none can dictate you what to do , just always remember you need to be careful and ready for anything. Hope for the best but expect the worst.......

[KenC]

Jazzy,
I can assure you that all Americans do not think like DKMM!!  I can also share this with you: desperate people do desperate things.  For some reason DKMM is VERY desperate.  Much like a lemming running toward that cliff.....
KenC

 

[Jazzyclassy]

I mean  I understand KenC:)

 I have nothing against DKMM and his girl being a couple ,they might be so good together, but well to marry that is ......... horribly quick

........just that is too quick it is like Britney Spears had married her classmate for 24 hours and then  poorthing find out that she did that and quickly canceled her marriage

anyway it is none of my business, but I decided to tell my opinion:) in any case it might help  and stop people from making mistakes , such obvious  mistakes

[DKMM]

Yeah ok don't worry.  Not all the facts are fairly presented, for instance I've known her since February and already my courtship with dear E is twice as long as my own parents was.  Many of my family friends were married after 1 week of meeting, all are still happily after it.  That's my culture and I'm sorry if other people are poor at picking mates, but don't apply your failures to me.  But that's ok I'm not really here to defend whether or not I think I'll be ready next month if I plan to propose.  I already seen what you all did to MaxxumUSA when he went through with it so I don't really care about those kinds of opinions. 

yup I'm desperate Ken, clearly a 29 year old man fully aware of himself and set in life is crazy for considering marrying a 27 year old girl he's known for several months.  I should wait because you said so... thanks but I'm capable of making my decisions.

I'm happy to hear what people have to say, but don't insult me.  Some people are jealous here and I'm sure glad I'm not one of them.

Fwiw, I don't recommend going this quickly for most people but for me it works.  When you know, you know.

[Mir]

Many of my family friends were married after 1 week of meeting, all are still happily after it.

Sounds like a family tradition then.

Fwiw, I don't recommend going this quickly for most people but for me it works

Have you done it before?

[Gator]

Jazzy,

It is appropriate for you to criticize DKMM about how fast he is moving.  However, you should withhold judgments about E, particularly those that you expressed here. 

I have little basis to discuss this with you because you met E and DKMM, and I have not.  However, you did not spend a great amount of time with the two.  All I know is what I read here and what DKMM said to me privately.  So when I make some comments, I am going out on a limb.

DKMM is choosing someone who will be his life partner.  Somehow the woman must fit into his concept of how he likes to live and plans to live.  DKMM seems to think E would fit.  Why?

E is reserved.  Many men like that.  They do not want a woman who talks a mile a minute, is impetuously reactionary, bounces off the walls, sends him 76 SMS’s in one day, etc. regardless if she is extremely beautiful as his S in Tver.  He walked away from S even though she was wanted him sooooo much.


One of the requirements for my wife is that she make a good partner - namely someone who helps me make good decisions.  Many RW do not exhibit signs of wanting to step into the realm of a true partner, and instead see themselves compartmentalized as a traditional wife, perhaps because RM assigned them that role and did not let women crossover into his world. Life is a stream of continuous choices, and some of them have huge implications.  It is good to have an intelligent, open-minded wife who can deliberate these with you, as opposed to a disinterested, ignorant, argumentative or obstinate wife.  Maybe DKMM seeks the former.  He seems smart enough to know that no matter how smart he is, two heads are smarter than one.

We know that DKMM is in the business world, and I am sure it is important that he have a wife who could navigate that with him.  He lives in a community, and perhaps maintains wide social connections.  If so, he needs someone who presents herself well.  A reserved, intelligent, and charming wife is worth her weight in gold.  One of the ways to charm someone is to not talk about yourself but encourage the other to talk about pleasant things in his/her life, and E seems to have this talent based on your interaction (although you were not charmed).

I agree that DKMM is moving too fast because it takes time to understand if a woman wants to be a partner and whether she has the makeup to be a good one. 

Who knows what DKMM wants and whether E is the one?  DKMM is the only one who knows, and he is “feeling it”. 

[Jazzyclassy]

     Who knows what DKMM wants and whether E is the one?  DKMM is the only one who knows, and he is “feeling it”. 

        

absolutely I agree but you should not propoganda such kinda girls like her for everybody, plus do not rush with judging me , I agree I expressed my opinion a little more negative than I wanted , I never meant to I appologize if it sounded harsh to DKMM and you personally Dear Gator:)

Just you guys seem to deny your theory that you need love and your woman to love you genuinely , it all seems to be about money and smells like a dark affairs

Once again god I never persuade anybody to take my side, I am sure DKMM put me on ignore already  let it be so , I am just presenting the other part of the story:)

Plus life will show how it will be in the future.... lets pray I am wrong:)

[Mir]

Well JC you are on one person's ignore list(?who) and I am on two member's(?who) ignore list.
Just shows that people only want to read what agrees with what they think is right......