Red Flags

[Bruce]

How many red flags does it take for a guy to know that its time to move on?  When does a guy know when it is time to move on?   What are the best thing a guy can do when it is time to move on?  How is it best to break it to her, or does he even have to, depending upon how big the red flag is?

1.  I firmly believe a guy has nothing but a good lead at best prior to meeting the girl in person.  That being said, any monetary request prior to meeting is a show breaker ie. huge red flag saying stop all future contact.

2.  I firmly believe that if a girl demands anything ie. certain restaurant, wants to go "shopping" early in a relationship ie. within the first three dates it is a huge show stopping red flag.

3.  If your meeting went well when you visited but you are having trouble reaching your girl via phone and the emails are not going as well as they used to this is a tiny red flag cause for concern.  It could be her work schedule, poor timing.  Give it a two week period.  If you have had no or virtually no communication it is a red flag.  If after three weeks you hear nothing it is a cause for concern.  Girls find someone else and just move on.  It happens, so over time the red flag becomes bigger.  Have a letter hand delivered to her / get a second party to find out what is going on if you really want to know. 

4.  You are in a bar or restaurant with your girl and she would rather spend time chatting with her friends or some guy than you.  Red flag.  I'd speak with her gently at first and wait for the situation to happen again prior to jumping on this in your next private discussion.  If it happens again and the explanation is not to your liking, fatal red flag. 

5.  You meet the girl for the first time and she gives you little to no attention (not interested in what you say etc.), next, ie. fatal red flag. 

6.  Girl shows no sexual anything but a peck on your cheek by the end of the third date - fatal red flag ie. next.

7.  Girl asks you to upgrade your apartment / house / car when you are communicating.  May be a red flag, but over time I have seen that many a single guy really does need upgrades in their house.  I used to see this as a red flag, but now look at it as no flag.  However, if she demands that you purchase a new Mercedes Benz prior to her arrival when you have a decent fairly new car I'd look at this as a red flag. 

These can go on and on.  Yes, many times flags creep in over time and move from gray to pink to red.  You have to go with your gut, but at the same time try to put yourself in your girls shoes and give her the benefit of the doubt.

[viking]

I would also add that if a meeting goes well, you see her a few times, no red flags, BUT when you get home and after a few more weeks of communicating she THEN asks for money because of illness, her mother is whatever, car accident, cell phone broke (thinking she now HAS you), big red flag. Some girls have the patience of a saint before reeling you in.

[happiness]

4.  You are in a bar or restaurant with your girl and she would rather spend time chatting with her friends or some guy than you.  Red flag.  I'd speak with her gently at first and wait for the situation to happen again prior to jumping on this in your next private discussion.  If it happens again and the explanation is not to your liking, fatal red flag. 

This is a difficult point to judge a girl's intentions because of the language differences.  If you are not fluent in her language, she may just want to talk to someone in her native tongue.  I can tell you that after several days of that speak - translate - understand cycle, I desperately wanted to just talk naturally for five minutes with someone who was fluent in English.  So it pays to be understanding here and let her have five minutes with her girlfriends, but I agree that she should spend most of the time with you.  And if she talks to any guys, she should be with you and introduce you to the guys.  Any solo conversations or flirting in your presence are red flags.

[Gator]

Bruce,

This is an important topic.  I wish I could add red flags; however, my relationships over five years have all been positive other than a couple of "no shows".

Much of the interactions can be confusing because of the fog of culture, language, etc.  That is why I try to stand back and observe, looking more for positive signs rather than red flags.  Some of what I pay attention to (off the top of my head in the wee hours of the morning):

-  How they react to you upon first meeting (first few minutes) because there needs to be some mutual physical attraction (even if they are gorgeous and we are average).

-  Throughout the first meeting they are curious about you and your life as if they are judging what kind of husband you would make.

-  They show intellectual curiosity and do not take eveything at face value - RW are natuarally suspicious and if they are interested they want to know more about you.

-  They seem adventurous and competent (necessary for adjustment in your country).

-  They introduce you to their family and friends by the second day (if you are meeting only her in her city - WMVM women owe you nothing).  Family is important and the women who have a healthy family life are usually better adjusted, and they also have the traditional family values that most of us seek.

-  How they treat sales people, waiters, etc. says something about their general character.

-  Watching them around their friends reveals much about their true personality.

-  Little things that suggest whether they are "givers' or "takers".

-  Do they attend to your tidiness and comfort?

-  Do they seem relaxed around you (not fair to uptight women, so this takes time).

-  Do they laugh sincerely and freely (important to me, perhaps not to others).

There is more but I am tired.

[Bruce]

Great pointers guys.  These should be required reading.  There are many more we can add................................

[Kuna]

My Red Flags during correspondence...

Everyone will have their own ideas on what is acceptable and unacceptable during correspondence but here's basically the rules I set myself.

Some of these might seem obvious but they were important in helping me decide which girls I would meet on my trip.

Keep in mind I accepted no incoming "expressions of interest" - I knew who I was looking for an didn't want to be sidetracked. I corresponded for about 2 months (a little more) prior to travelling and I started with about 40 letters.  I wanted to thin the letters out pretty quickly so I could learn something about the real girls before travelling.

Here's the tings I considered Ref Flags...

1. Canned Letters
Anyone that sent me a "canned" response just didn't get an answer from me.  It might be harsh but when I was getting interesting letters from some girls and lazy responses from others it was easy to decide to ignore the canned responses.

2. Not Answering My Questions
During correspondence I would "disengage" with anyone that didn't answer my questions.  Usually if an answer was missed I would ask again and point out they might have missed my question in the previous letter...  but I wasn't going to UKR for a mystery.

3. Natural photos please! 
I eventually disengaged with anyone that only sent professional or staged photos.  Even I can look good in a professionally shot photograph.  I also wanted to see photographs of a girl with her friends and family.

4. Agrees with Everything
No one agrees with everything that we think or feel.  During my correspondence I noticed some girls would agree with everything I said or asked.  I even slipped in some crazy statements to see if they agreed.

My girl actually responded in a very natural way when we were writing and learning about each other.  Some things she said surprised me and weren't initially to my liking - but I figured out she was a strong girl with her own opinions based on her own life experiences.  She was MORE REAL than most of the others.

5. Long delays between letters. 
I chose not to meet some girls who were slow to respond to letters or their responses were sporadic.  I just felt like those who were natural and responded consistently were more serious.  That doesn't mean I expected responses daily, but one girl would respond immediately at times and then not for a week or two.  I got an email from her when I was on my trip saying she thought I might be in Ukraine and she would like to meet.  We didn't - I didn't feel like she put enough effort in over the previous weeks and months.

6. Repetitive or Irrelevant Information.
Some "girls" included repetitive or irrelevant information.  Didn't she remember what we'd already discussed?  Why throw in comments about her need for new boots for winter?

7. Requests for Money - OF COURSE
Is there a need to say why?  Any request for money is a terminal red flag.

8. Wanting to meet in an exotic location
One girl wanted to meet in an exotic location and actually sent a list of countries where she didn't require a visa.  I played it out initially and it wasn't a ticket scam.  She was happy for me to buy tickets and meet her in Kiev before we flew out to another destination...  Any suggestion of an exotic holiday was a Red Flag for me.

9. They Don't Ask Any Questions
I disengaged with anyone that didn't ask ME questions.  Surely any girl who is serious will want to know about us, our lives, families and friends.

10. Falling in love via Email
I wanted someone with a level head and anyone falling in love via email is a red flag for me. 

I think if we're going to write before meeting it is possible to reduce the risk by setting some firm rules and sticking to them.  Others (I'm thinking BillyB) might have suggestions for other Red Flags during correspondence.

Kuna

[DKMM]

I have to disagree with Bruce's red flag #6.  Not every girl moves quickly in this arena.  By the end of the 3rd date I had not even a peck on the cheek from a recent girl but that's because she was a slower mover and more cautious.  Had I moved on after date 3 I would have missed out on the action date's 4 and 5 had in store.   

[Simoni]

I have to agree with Bruce on this one, DKMM.  As you have read here and as you stated in your TR, a russian girl will SHOW you if she is interested in you.  And this certainly includes kissing you.

Having said that, of course there are exceptions, as you encountered.  But the norm is that by the end of the third date, there should be heat.

[Rvrwind]

But the norm is that by the end of the third date, there should be heat.

Get a grip, not all women move that fast. Sheeesh.
I never got a full blown kiss from my wife in the first two weeks!!! Course I didn't try all that hard either. I ain't a fast mover unless I figure its gonna be a one night stand, but when it is forever I ain't movin' fast at all & I expect her to be on the same level. They move to fast with me or sleep with me on the second or third date, were done, movin' on.
I'm pretty cautious about women who move too fast, makes me think they got an agenda. A slow mover is putting more thought into her decision in my mind & I prefer it that way.
JMHO

[START2]

Who really cares what # date you get kissed on. It took me four. We had breakfast(1), and did other things and met again for lunch(2). Again had other things to do and met for dinner.(3). She went home, I went to my flat and met up at the disco.(4). So see, had I not waited till the 4th date I'd have never got kissed.

[Simoni]

Who really cares what # date you get kissed on. It took me four. We had breakfast(1), and did other things and met again for lunch(2). Again had other things to do and met for dinner.(3). She went home, I went to my flat and met up at the disco.(4). So see, had I not waited till the 4th date I'd have never got kissed.

LOL, Start4! 

I like your math 

[Bruce]

I could see where there are some exceptions to the rule.  I still think three is a good number to use.  I am assuming three dates includes three days of dating ie. meet and do something(s) on day A., meet and do something night of day B and meet and do something(s) on day C.  Somewhere in there you should have a positive sign of at least attraction.  Without mutual attraction kiss the relationship good bye and move on. 

Start - I see what you mean.  I assume three of the dates occurred in one day.  Maybe I should add the word "about" three dates before signs of intimacy and that they should occur over different days.  Both of you need time to think and three dates in one day do not allow for that. 

DKNM - I am not sure you didn't get somewhat intimate / saw signs of affection within three dates from reading your trip report.  If I remember correctly one of those drunken we woke up in separate beds kind of days may have had more intimacy then you might remember    In any event I'm glad your trip was a lot of fun and you may have a potential long term super girl for yourself. 

[WmGO]

Good thread Bruce.

Agree with Rvrwind that there is no red flag rule as it pertains when one receives the real kiss.......everyone is just too differenct for there to be any such rule.........

I also wanted to  comment on Kuna's #8. This is a serious problem area. It is simply not normal for a sincere FSUW to want to meet anywhere but her home country. Most would want you to come to her hometown. It creates a lot of problems for the sincere on both sides when there are so many WM setting up first meetings with FSUW in places other than there hometown/country........it just makes no sense for WM to be doing this..........in all seriousness, it really makes no sense for WM to be doing this at virtually anypre-marriage stage of a relationship with an FSUW...........the only place a WM is really going to get to know a W is in her hometown around her family and friends...............someone did note once that a foreign traveling can reveal a lot about a W's sincerity and intentions........her adaptability and getalongability........some valid points but even if a man is going to do some foreign traveling with an FSUW for this discovery purpose it is best if it is not the first or second meeting....................FWIW.

[catzenmouse]

the only place a WM is really going to get to know a W is in her hometown around her family and friends...............someone did note once that a foreign traveling can reveal a lot about a W's sincerity and intentions........her adaptability and getalongability........some valid points but even if a man is going to do some foreign traveling with an FSUW for this discovery purpose it is best if it is not the first or second meeting

Very true IMO. If the relationship is moving forward and there has been decent time spent in the company of family and friends it would be okay to have a "getaway" for just the two of you. Doesn't even have to be exotic. It could be a trip to Moscow, St. Pete., or the Black Sea to give you some alone time.

Forgive me if it has already been mentioned and I missed it:

 You also need to look at how she treats others like waitresses and/or vendors as well as how she treats family and friends. Maybe not a "red flag" but it could be a good indication of how you might be treated in the future.

Ken

[WmGO]

You also need to look at how she treats others like waitresses and/or vendors as well as how she treats family and friends. Maybe not a "red flag" but it could be a good indication of how you might be treated in the future.
Ken

Good point - I call it the Golden Rule Test.........

[MaxxumUSA]

Good thread Bruce.

Agree with Rvrwind that there is no red flag rule as it pertains when one receives the real kiss.......everyone is just too differenct for there to be any such rule.........

I also wanted to  comment on Kuna's #8. This is a serious problem area. It is simply not normal for a sincere FSUW to want to meet anywhere but her home country. Most would want you to come to her hometown. It creates a lot of problems for the sincere on both sides when there are so many WM setting up first meetings with FSUW in places other than there hometown/country........it just makes no sense for WM to be doing this..........in all seriousness, it really makes no sense for WM to be doing this at virtually anypre-marriage stage of a relationship with an FSUW...........the only place a WM is really going to get to know a W is in her hometown around her family and friends...............someone did note once that a foreign traveling can reveal a lot about a W's sincerity and intentions........her adaptability and getalongability........some valid points but even if a man is going to do some foreign traveling with an FSUW for this discovery purpose it is best if it is not the first or second meeting....................FWIW.

My first meeting with Elena was 5 days in her home town.  Second meeting was 3 weeks in her home town.

I'm planning my third trip and she suggested meeting in Egypt or St. Petersburg.  As much as I like the idea of traveling with her I am hesitant at the idea of meeting somewhere else.  Finances play part of my thought but mainly I want to bond more with her family and friends.  I actually enjoy her town.

The downside of this is the plain truth...  she is bored in her home town.  Having known her for a while and her telling me this I can see that she would enjoy getting out of town and exploring a new place with me.

My point is this:  Wanting to meet in neutral territory MIGHT not be a red flag if she only suggests it.  If she INSISTS on meeting somewhere else it could either be a big red flag...  OR it might be that she is just not sure if she wants to reveal to her friends, neighbors, etc that she is meeting a foreigner for mariage potential.  Even my Elena mentioned that even her best of friends might have taken my visit the wrong way and might have said mean things to her.  But thankfully my Elena has good friends and they all accept me with open arms.

- David

[SANDRO43]

The downside of this is the plain truth...  she is bored in her home town.  Having known her for a while and her telling me this I can see that she would enjoy getting out of town and exploring a new place with me. My point is this:  Wanting to meet in neutral territory MIGHT not be a red flag if she only suggests it.  If she INSISTS on meeting somewhere else it could either be a big red flag...  OR it might be that she is just not sure if she wants to reveal to her friends, neighbors, etc that she is meeting a foreigner for mariage potential.  Even my Elena mentioned that even her best of friends might have taken my visit the wrong way and might have said mean things to her.  But thankfully my Elena has good friends and they all accept me with open arms.

Maybe she wants to see YOU in a different setting, and verify if there are any red flags for HER ?

[WmGO]

Maxxum,

Agree that if she insists something might be wrong.....especially if she insists on Egypt....but I would not suggest a foreign country..........if anything, go to St. Petersburg, especially if you have never been there......would be a good opportunity for both of you to see how you interact outside her hometown but still within her country.......good luck.

[Rvrwind]

but I would not suggest a foreign country

True,you don't need a foriegn country for that.
We went to Moscow for a week & saw the sites met a few of her friends & just kicked back & had a good time!!!

[Mir]

To decide what should happen on what date needs clarification of what is a date?
While at home a dinner on Saturday, movie next Sunday, dinner/concert the following Saturday etc will be date 1,2,3.
Visiting a girl in Moscow, staying there for 3 days and meeting every evening to do the same and then leaving may be counted as one date not three?

[MaxxumUSA]

Maybe she wants to see YOU in a different setting, and verify if there are any red flags for HER ?

When with a woman the flags she sees are usually only two colors.  Green, or checkered!  I'm either in the race or I have already won. 

[catzenmouse]

When with a woman the flags she sees are usually only two colors.  Green, or checkered!  I'm either in the race or I have already won. 

I think I'd like to hear from some of our ladies on that one...

Can't for the life of me believe that any woman doesn't have a dozen different colored flags to use for a man! They just are not that simple like we are.

To your earlier post: Talk with her about it and tell her you want more time with her family etc. Maybe plan this trip to her town and the next to St. Pete. Or maybe do a half & half trip which would give you some of each.

Ken

[Kuna]

On the "MUST TRAVEL Red Flag"... My intentions were to point out DURING CORRESPONDENCE that it's a certain red flag if a woman even suggests an exotic location...

Maxumm... I think your lady wanting to go to St Pete is a great idea.  I would be meeting her in her town and then travelling together to St Petersberg...  possibly even by train (but you may not see travel like I do... I LOVED the train trip from Dnepr to Kiev... but that's MUCH shorter than the trip you'll be taking).

Something I know about my girl FOR SURE is that she wouldn't have fallen for my charms if I had no interest in her country and culture... I guess I'm lucky because it's also my families culture and country.

Going to St Petersberg gives you the opportunity to learn more about Russia, history, art and culture...

If you want more time with her family I'd meet her at home and then head off for "Part B" of your trip.

Before you make that trip research the things you want to see and make the trip interesting... Take control...  BE THE MAN! 

My Girl made the comment that she knew I was interested because I had plans for our time together...  In Dnepr it was different... it was an impromptu part of my trip so I was in her hands.  I wasn't comfortable and I'm pretty sure she didn't like making the decisions on where to eat, etc.

Anyway... for me a girl requesting an exotic location for a first meeting is enough for "disengagement"... 

Kuna

[SANDRO43]

I think I'd like to hear from some of our ladies on that one...

Quite. As they say, it usually takes two to ...

[MaxxumUSA]

Quite. As they say, it usually takes two to ...

Well...

one thing is for sure...



Come on gentlemen...

Do you think I would say such things without them being true? There are many women from FSU looking...  The one common thing they seek is men like me/us.  Should I be shy  about this?