I MADE THE WRONG CHOICE

[Erwin]

Gator,

She never truly loves you.  You deserve better.

Good luck,

E

[Turboguy]

VWRW,
My wife Lena always had a cute way of referring to us "living" in a hotel while we go on vacation.  I would think that if real life had room service, a mini bar and a full beauty spa 2 floors down, it would be great!  Point being, that being on the road has little resemblance to what one's "real" life. 

It is wonderful that you and Turbo will be able to spend time together in Barbados.  I can only imagine how unique an experience you two will enjoy.  But that is the whole point too.  Living together in Barbados will be a unique experience and have nothing similar to how the two of you will "live" in a small town in PA.
KenC

Ken, Just for the record, we are not staying in a hotel.  We won't have a mini bar, room service or a beauty salon two floors down.  We also won't have a swimming pool or even look out our windows on a beautiful ocean.   

For those who feel you experience life together more in her home town, I ask you to give me one reason why it would be more like the life you will live in the future than living in Barbados and Grenada.

Here are a few it will be more like the future than living in Russia.

She will hear no Russian.  When she turns on the TV she will hear English, when we shop, she will hear and must speak English,

She will be isolated from friends and family as she would be here.  I don't look for it to be a problem when we are here but if it will be we will find out on this trip.

We will have to live like a married couple washing dishes, cooking, making the beds, etc.

To me, it is very much like we will experience in America.  In Russia it would be nothing like it.  I have already made 20+ trips to Russia.  I know the country the culture and a little of the language. 

Living together in Russia for that period of time would create other logistical problems for us such as the fact the visa for Russia is 30 days unless we do a lot of fooling around.  If there is an emergency I can get back a lot quicker. 

There was nothing we could have learned about each other in Russia that we either do not already know or can not learn better in Barbados and Grenada and it is a chance for her to improve her English far more than she would there which will help when she does move here.

[Daveman]

Daveman, I have no doubt Kuna wants a partner with a lot of virtues. Simply, I have impression from reading his posts that woman’s desire to be mother and housekeeper is of majority importance for him. I can be wrong; I do not pretend to be a mind-reader, as some do here. I just wanted to use him as an analog to express my opinion for which kind of man it is better spend the entire courtship period in his woman’s city.   

I am sorry I do not know the exact percent of people who got divorced at last year but I think the percent is scaring. Majority of the couples lived in one city prior to marriage and had a wonderful opportunity to learn each other through their daily life; however it did not prevented them from mistake.

Okay, I see where some of the confusion is coming from. I certainly would not want to spend the entire courtship time in the lady's home city.  I would be a good part of it to get to know her. My point is, that's the best way to learn the MOST about her. I'm actually pretty good at playing devil's advocate, but I can't see any fathomable, logical argument against that reasoning.  Traveling together is also a great bonding experience as well as an opportunity to learn other things about her.  I love to travel also - it wouldn't be to Barbados, not my style and luckily not hers either, but we are both nature freaks, so seeing grand wonders around the world is something we both would enjoy.

As far as the second paragraph.  Just because people have the opportunity to learn about each other doesn't mean they will actually do it.  Very few people really 'get to know' each other before marriage even when they speak the same language living in the same country.  From the male perspective, often times marrying the "prettiest" woman with very little in common other than superficial, most blatantly obvious characteristics.  That lack of really diving deeper into things is probably the cause of the really high divorce rates as there is far more likely of a chance of 'growing apart' when neither party had any real deeply connected understanding.  But what do I know.

Gator has taken a little ribbing lately for being an analyst in this process, but I think it's the right approach. God only knows I ponder crap for hours sometimes. Seems to me there has to be a balance of the intellectual, the romantic, as well as good gut instinct and attraction.

And hey, there's also the age gap in the guys here which puts us at different levels in our lives. What Gator or Turboguy seek in a relationship/partner will be a little different than what people like Kuna or myself are trying to create.  They've done and accomplished things we are still dreaming of so blowing it out and having a blast around the world would be a priority.

Dave

[Turboguy]

Dave, you bring up some good points that are quite interesting.   I have to agree there are places I would rather spend the summer than Barbados but those options are not open to us with her being a Russian citizen.   For a vacation I would much rather go to Barbados for a week in February to escape the cold.  I have probably spend a year of my life in Russia or Ukraine and to be honest I can't get too excited about going back. 

I have to agree that people can spend months or years together and never really talk.  I think my marriage was that way to a big extent.  You can ask the most important or most intimate questions to someone and feel like you are talking, but until you reach the point that your guard is down and you can confide and share anything with each other you are not "really" talking.  I have only had a few women in my life that I felt that way with and VWRW is one of them and I think she feels much the same.

I think there is nothing wrong with analyzing things but is love something you find by analyzing?   Isn't it more that you meet someone you feel so right with, that you can share every thought, that every minute with her is special.  That you like the good you see and just accept any few faults as part of what makes her who she is.  I think when you find that really right person you just know it in your heart.  I think Gator has either just not met the right woman yet and when he does he will not have to Analise anything.

This may sound strange but I see Gator and myself at different stages and in many ways my stage is closer to yours than his.   I do agree that Gator seems to me at a point in his life where he has accomplished a lot and is content to sit back and enjoy life and to have a blast around the world. 

For me, having a blast around the world is low priority.   Perhaps I have accomplished a few things but I have far more I want to do yet.  I plan on working at least another 15 years, maybe more and have some really interesting things that will be big challenges for me.  Yes, I hope 16 hours days are a thing of the past with the exception of a few times when it is still necessary but I love what I do and have much to accomplish yet. 

[CaptB]

Turboguy,

The point is not whether spending most of the time in "her" city........"is anything like her life in the USA (Uk, AUS etc.)..........but in getting to "know" her.

1) You will not get feedback from friends/relatives/coworkers.......on "their" view of the person she is (with their many years of experience.......compared to the WM's very limited time spent in her company.

2) Most RW who push a little too much for vacations elsewhere.....as opposed to your insistence on spending the bulk of visiting time in their town.......maybe are uncomfortable with such "close scutiny".       ???

3) It is my belief that veiwing her in a "normal" (home) environment "will" give you a look into how she will behave here in the US. Yes when she first arrives there will be an adjustment period (normal).......but once settling in (if a relatively normal, stable person........psychologically speaking).......her adjusted behavior here should not be much different.......from the person she was.......back home. My wife.....and a few dozen RW/UW friends here in the states.......bears this out.

4) The idea (Simoni) of taking vacations to make sure "she" likes travel.......is rediculous. With rare exceptions........foreign travel is at the top of the list in most survey/polls of extracuricular activities.......if time and money are no object. People on vacation....."act" like they are on vacation. That's why they are called..........."vacations". A vacation  would have little to do with how someone will be........when at home. The only resemblence a vacation would have to life in the US......is in the begining......when she first arrives. Everything is new and exciting........."like a vacation"...................then the reality.....along with some anxiety sets in........that this is not.......a vacation. But these "adjustments"........are temporary........they make some small adjustment......because of "culture".......and then they will more than likely continue on........as the person (hopefully you fell in love with).....that they were.........."back home".

Bucky paid me a compliment earlier in the post.......that I should post more often. On the RWG......and at first here on the RWD.......I "was" a frequent poster. But like many of the oldtimers.......sometimes you just feel like you are beating your head against the wall......when it comes to giving advice. I am not always right........just human. I stopped standing in the "always right" line along time ago. EVERY GUY (well 99%)......thinks his situation is "unique". Even though I know I am breaking half of the rules on the tablets of stone........"my situation is different etc etc..................My friend jb.......just gets pissed alot. I .............just don't bother. After you are married.........you get busy with other things. I do alot of skimming.......looking to help a few.....rather than the masses......for those who are willing to try something different........when what they were doing........is'nt working. I received alot of good advice......especially on the RWG.........so I always feel obligated to pass on assistance.

The truth is you will reduce your chances if:

1) You have a large age difference.

2) You tend to ignore the tablets of stone.

3) Don't observe your partner in a normal home environment (hometown). And yes......if it
    were possible.......in a perfect situation "she" would also be able to experience the same.

4) You ignore red and pink flags.

5) You make the the mistake that she will "eventually" see the person I am........and be into me...........as much as I am into.......her.

6) It is "cute" to give in sometimes. We all must be flexible. But if you cannot be "the man" in a more or less traditional sense.......you will have problems. My wife wants a partnership. My wife wants some flexability. My wife wants joint decission making. But.....my wife "expects" me to be....."the man".

Yes,,,,,of course I expect the RW of the board (especially those unmarried......and still back in the FSU)........to ralley for "vacations"..........duhhhh!!!! And those RW who want a WM to "mold"...........to decry my idea that "most" RW want their partner........to be "the man" in the relationship............duhhhh!!!!

The more items you have on the list above.......the greater your risk......for failure. There are always happy exceptions.........but the possitive exceptions.......are few.

There are guys right on this thread......who will say there can be no harm to do this.....or that.......and rationalize their reasons for doing them. The real proof is where they will be in 6 mos, a year, 5 years................ The goal is finding a partner.........hopefully a partner......for life. If you have been doing the same thing all along......maybe it is time to try something................................"different".  

Capt B





 

[Simoni]

4) The idea (Simoni) of taking vacations to make sure "she" likes travel.......is rediculous. 

Actually, your rambling confabulation with incorrect use of ellipses is what is ridiculous.  What kind of ship do you captain, a dingy?

But I'll just respond to your response to me...

Yes, if you like to travel, and it's important in your life, then yes, you should travel with the girl.  I provided an actual example of a girl I took on a trip who showed me she did NOT like to travel.  I passed on her.  Hence, if travel is important to you, then you better find a match in a girl who likes to travel, or your traveling days are over.

[Turboguy]

Capt B.  Gosh that was a really nice post and well thought out.  I agree with Gator that you have great ideas and should post often.  I feel very hesitant to comment because it may make you feel like you are beating your head against a wall and I hate to do that.  

I think your comments are wonderful but I don't think they fit where we are right now.  

Neither of us are trying to make any decisions about the other.  We just want to spend time together.  I am not concerned about the feedback I might get from others or watching for red flags or learning more about her (yes, I want to know her as well as I can but we are at the point where learning new things comes very slowly.)

We have two goals for the trip.

1. Being together
2. Helping her in ways that might assist her when she moves here.

I think Simoni comments had some merit.  I went through my marriage without ever having an enjoyable vacation and the first serious relationship after my marriage made vacations a nightmare.  I could tell a few real horror stories.   I do appreciate having someone you can have a nice vacation with.  It is sort of sad when the only nice vacations you have had are ones you went on alone.  

This trip is not something she talked me into.  She sent me a list of places she could go without a visa and we analized the best ones.  Truthfully I am quite happy not to go back to Russia and from a practical standpoint that would have been much more difficult.

I think your last list of 6 points is quite good but the only one that really applies is the age difference and that has been discussed enough that I really hope this does not turn into more discussion about it.  I don't advocate it for anyone else, we are comfortable with it and I don't think either of us even notices it.  We are dealing with the practical side of it and if it becomes a problem 10 or 20 years from now we will deal with that then.  

You do have great ideas and I hope you post often.

[CaptB]

Simoni......no attacks here.......not my style. I do see that you have not been to the FSU yet.
Getting to know a woman from the FSU can be costly in money.....and time. It will "never" be like dating back home (ie visits......with extended periods in between). Time is at a premium. As to travel........you need only "ask her". There is a difference between finding a partner........and going on vacation. Many here take alot of "vacations"........but have no partner to show for it. You will start to change your mind that this process is no different than dating at home.......after you make your first trip. Ramblings......yeah I am a little tired tonite...........but leave my "elipses" alone. Oh yeah.........and only my wife gets to talk about my.........."dingy".  But if you ever want to "chew-the-fat".....................I'll be out sailing.........or snoozing...............................in the Captain's................d-i-n-g-h-y.  

Welcome to the board........I'll be be looking forward to your first trip report.

Capt B

[CaptB]

Turbo,

My comments mostly were for folks in the earlier stages of this process. Actually I am a big fan of "exceptions". I have been fortunate to do alot of interesting things in my life.....when many naysayers said some of these things......could not be done. It takes alot of courage to march to a different beat sometimes. No.....I wish I could have left off the "age" item.....I am sure you are weary of that argument. Ultimately you will succeed or fail.......because of the people you are.......regardless of the opinions of others. My comments were only directed at increasing ones odds for success. There is no formula for "when" it would be OK to "vacation"..........my premise is that you should should really get to know each other.......first. But then what do I know.......I am a Captain......without a ship......and only a ........................."DINGHY"..................surrounded by pesky "elipses".

       
Capt B

[Simoni]

Simoni......no attacks here.......not my style. I do see that you have not been to the FSU yet.

There is a difference between finding a partner........and going on vacation.

Ramblings......yeah I am a little tired tonite...........but leave my "elipses" alone.

Glad you will drop the attacks, CaptB.  They are counterproductive.  And yes, when you disagree with another posters ideas by saying they are "ridiculous," that is an attack.  And it was indeed countered with an attack on your "elipses" and your dingy!   LOL

But I refrained from attacking your use of the two words "a lot"  as "alot."  Didn't I?

CaptB-- Sometimes posters make posts aimed at a certain poster.  And in that attack, they can provide information that may  be correct to that poster, but incorrect to the population as a whole. That is where the attack on trips with girls comes into play. You read what I posted upthread...that the most important thing was to first make 3 trips to the girls hometown to spend time with here there.  And then, and only then, take her on a trip, if you are a traveling man.  So yes, get to know the girl in many situations...at home and on the road.  All of those experiences are important in getting to know one another.

BTW-- I've been traveling to Europe and Asia for 15 years.   Been to the FSU...too many times to count...but at least 15 or 20.  Until recently, my profile info reflected that...will have to ask a mod why the board is dropping such data.

Been around RWG (different name) for 5 years.  Searched for a girl for 4 years; took two to find her.  Marina and I have been together two years in a couple of months.  She is in Ukraine now; I'll join her there in a couple of weeks for the month of July.  And hey, JB is a friend of mine, too!  I was not in his wedding like yours truly, but I have shared a beer with him. And agreed with 85% of what he posts!   LOL

[BC]

Just some quick thoughts..

When dating, there is absolutely no problem travelling or meeting in third countries or other cities.

Before proposing however, one should spend a decent amount of time in her city and possibly her home IMHO.

I spent a good amount of time at my wife's home, basically living with her, our daughter and her parents for three weeks at a time, - a couple times over.  This experience showed me almost exactly the person I was intending to marry, her 'true self'.. In fact, to this day she hasn't changed much at all.

If you really want to know what's inside that sweet  chocolate covering...

 

[Mir]

When dating, there is absolutely no problem travelling or meeting in third countries or other cities.

Before proposing however, one should spend a decent amount of time in her city and possibly her home IMHO.

Totally agree.

Also as Simoni says it is important to test her and know that she likes to travel if you like to travel. Right now my secretary is divorcing her husband simply because he refuses to go on holiday with her (fear of flying). They are both English, but same can happen with FSU girl if not checked beforehand.

[jb]

While in the dating phase, my wife and I spent several weeks in several different Russian resorts as well as weeks in Moscow while she worked and I loafed.  My favorite resort of all is at Voronova in the Sheremetyevo castle, it is luxury personified, very old world Russia, almost a museum with many artifacts from period of Catherine the Great.  In fact, I proposed in a gazebo on one of the wooded bridle paths where Russian nobility once had picnics, and strolled with their ladies or galloped their horses 250 odd years ago.  Very romantic.   Even in wintertime there are many lovely resorts for skiing and hot tubbing, horse back riding on snowy trails, Christmas parties, etc., that are great.   We did our first "other" country trip after we married and were waiting for her visa.

The point being; there are just so many great places in the FSU to do a quickie vacation with your sweetie, all very reasonalby priced, I might add, I see no logic in sweating out getting a travel visa to another country during the initial dating phase.  It's just not worth the hassle, IMHO.  Save your exotic vacations for after you have her here.

[Turboguy]

I can agree the first meeting should be in her home city but of course for follow up time together there are a lot of countries that can be visited without a visa for either party.   I have to think follow up visits in mid winter make the thoughts of a trip to someplace like Egypt or Thailand pretty darn appealing. 

[philb]

Gator,

Looking over your posts two words seem to stand out, trust and love.......

Love is built and trust is earned, over time..  Without trust what can you love?  It took us years to get where we are today in our relationship and there still ain't no guarantees.

This post seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle and I think that the points BC made are extremely important.  I remember well a friend of mine asking me "When did you begin to trust her".  He asked me this when I first told him I was planning on marrying the woman who is now my wife.  He asked this question while the two of us were climbing an extremely difficult route in the Wind River Mountains.  The man who asked this question is not only my friend and climbing partner, but also my Pastor.  Religion aside, BC has made an extremely important point.

Another thing we hear is that you need to visit your girl in her hometown.  This is true.  But jb has made a very good point.  You need to spend time with your future wife in a variety of situations.  In other words, lots of face time.

I am completely with jb on this.  I spent time with the woman who is now my wife in a a variety of situations.  Her home town, road tripping across Europe and the US, and together in places which neither of us had been to before.

What all this boils down to is time together.  While this guarantees nothing, I still belief it increases your odds exponentially.

[Gator]

True love takes time, for which there is no substitute. 

[SANDRO43]

True love takes time, for which there is no substitute.

Not if one lives in High Society, then it's ... a sailboat ... plus an accordion ... and the magic of Cole Porter, as you can verify at: 
http://dailymotion.alice.it/video/xns93_bing-crosby-grace-kelly-true-love .

[Wayne]

I was married to an AW for 17 years.  Every time without exception, she ruined every vacation we ever took together.  It got to the point where I would just take our three kids, pack up the camper and leave the woman at home.  Actually, it was a great vacation for me and the kids--and the woman was glad to be alone to do whatever she wanted.

Now in looking for a future wife, it is important to me that we be able to get along with each other no matter where we are or what we are doing.  I find that my Russian Fiancee is very easy to get along with.  We can discuss important issues without either of us getting upset.  We are able to joke with each other, and understand each other's jokes.  She is a very helpful person, which I saw in the way she treated me, her friends and family.  My Fiancee is a direct opposite to the AW that I was married to.