Looking for a wife or sex tourist

[START2]

The previous thread got me to thinking. Where is the line between looking for a wife or BECOMING a sex tourist?  I'm not playing ignorant here but reading Scorpian's thread and someone asking about him being a sex tourist confused me. Following are my thoughts.
   1. A man is disgusted with the choices he has at home. He discovers through whatever medium there are FSU women who have different values than the women at home. He visits the agencies on the web. His eyes see all those beautiful women so it's natural there is some excitement. He thinks, WOW, I'd like to meet one/some of those women. Are those first thoughts the man has  pure or lustfull or a combination of both? Is there a flaw to have those feelings? His thoughts are probably kept private to only himself but when talking to others what does he say to his friends or members of a forum that he finds? Does he tend to suppress the excited feelings and put a spin on it when he says "the most important thing is to find a good mate"?
  2. For most of you, what was the most important criteria for finding your mate? Was it physical appearance? Was it personality? Was it values? Keep in mind these are thoughts and considerations before ever meeting.
  3. The man does all the things needed to prepare for his trip/adventure. Writes, talks ,to some women, buys his tickets and begins his journey. In your opinions, what is or should be going through this mans mind? Should this man think that this is ONLY a trip to meet a woman for a future together? If this man has thoughts of intimacy before and after arriving, does this make him unacceptable to the purpose intended? What is the reality here? Can any of you say that when you travelled there were never thoughts of sexual encounters? What makes the difference to you? I know the obvious. A sex tourist only goes to have sex. Is that really all?
  4. Ok, the man arrives. Meets the the woman or women he intended to but she/they were not to his liking. Now what? His back-up is to visit an agency, but before that, he did manage to be intimate with a woman or two before he decided well, she's not the one for me. He has several days left and what goes through his mind? Does he think, I'll just see the sights for the rest of the week and call this trip a wash? Does he think, I'll just go to the agency and get a few dates only for the purpose of walking together or having someone to dine with? If he goes to an agency is it normal to not think there are possibilities of getting "lucky". He meets a few women from the agency and to his pleasure, he does get "lucky".
  5. In any of the scenarios above at what point do you consider any of the behavior being a sex tourist? Was he a sex tourist because he was intimate with women he knew briefly, albeit only through mail and possibly a few phone converstions and a personal meeting? Did he become a sex tourist when he happened to get "lucky". In determining the definition, is a sex tourist ONLY someone who meets women in the FSU for only sex before he arrives? Did any of you have thoughts that if you go to find a wife, there could NEVER be any sex before you met the "right' woman? Did any of you go expecting there would be no sex? Or, that could be a possibility? After all planned meetings fall through, and you start to feel a bit desperate being in a strange land and feeling lonely, are you considered a sex tourist if you think somewhere along the line, "I'm going to get me a woman before I leave here". If that would be a scenario, would you consider yourself a sex tourist at that point or would that be out of the realm of possibilty? Would it be a normal reaction for a normal man? Remember, before you left your home your eyes saw all those beautiful women and you know they are somewhere near. You just have to meet one.
  I will start this off by saying that my first trip was to meet friends I knew in Ak. I didn't know about MOB or agencies. I had been divorced for 15 yrs and my prioities were my sons. I seldom dated. It was obvious to me after the first day or 2 of being with my friends that UKr. had much more to offer that just visiting my friends. They even made introductions of their friends to me. At 49 I was wild eyed and feeling younger and more virile. Dating women in their 30's would have never happened here. Their choice not mine. In Ukr. I was a good age for women in their 30's.  I made several trips back and forth and eventually moved there for a time. I found Ukr. to be a wonderfull place for me. I travelled many places met many people, totally enjoyed the culture, and appreciated the no BS attitudes I encountered. It would be untrue if I said the women weren't a huge part of my frequent trips. I didn't hear the term sex tourist before I joined this forum 2 years ago. I can not say there weren't  some expectations before and after each trip. The women I knew were always foremost in my mind after leaving and then the anticipation of  a return was always very cool for me. I gained new friends and eventually met my wife. I did not go there at first to find a wife.  Did that make me a sex tourist? I never considered myself one.

[William3rd]

I think you are trying to blur the edges. Here is an extreme case.

This is from my book. The line of sex tourism is much closer to you than to this person.

I met a perennial sex tourist on the summer 2003 AFA tour. He resembled a hippopotamus in his appearance both in size and looks. What made him stand out from all of the other people, Russian or American, in any room, was not his initial outward appearance. It was the companion that he arrived with at the first breakfast buffet that drew the attention of every man there. He arrived with a young, stunning, dark-haired Russian woman on his arm who possessively held onto him and who was listening attentively to every word that he spoke over breakfast. People observing the couple wondered that such an ugly man could have such incredible luck and have the attention of such a lovely companion. Where did he FIND that brunette?? What a poster boy for AFA!! Except-he wasnt with the tour and this wasn't an AFA girls.
The next day, Hippoman arrived with a young, stunning, blonde-haired Russian woman on his arm. . .  Say Whaaaat?!?!?. . .  who possessively held onto him and who was listening attentively to. . . How the hell is he DOING this?!?!?! This subject was the topic of discussion dominating the AMerican men at the other tables and the reason why he was standing out from all of the others.
On the third morning, he came to breakfast alone. I approached his table and introduced myself, asking to join him. He agreed so I joined him out of curiosity, seeking enlightenment from the master.
I asked him where his friend(s) was/were. He easily replied that he was resting up and needed a day alone to relax. And the other woman? She was someone who he had decided not to pursue. Actually, he had decided not to pursue either one of them.
Naturally, I asked the burning question- how the hell was he doing it? He answered me with great pride but the answer came to me as a complete shock.
This was his hobby. "Hobby" meaning pursuing a “collection” of gorgeous Russian women.
Hippoman had spent more than five years on his hobby, which seemed to be initiating relationships via mail from the United States with attractive Russian women and then spending time in Russia every other month bedding as many of them as he could. When any particular agency or city got a little too hot for him, he would move on to the next one. After all, there were dozens of cities and dozens of agencies within each city.
Hippoman never went on the internet himself to look at profiles. He never wrote any personal letters to any of the women. He never answered any letters from any of the women. He never spoke to any of the women on the telephone. So- how did he do it?
He had a secretary-a full-time correspondence secretary- handling the entire process. The secretary would go on-line to view the hundreds of profiles posted by the various marriage agencies and make all of the selections for him based loosely on his pre-dictated criteria. His secretary would handle all of the address purchases and agency memberships that he needed.
Occupations and marital status were irrelevant to him; he wasn’t going to be around long enough to care about shared interests. English ability didn’t matter; he was fluent in Russian. Looks definitely mattered. He would only communicate with the top twenty percent of any of the women of an agency. He didn’t think that much of the AFA database except that the sheer numbers of women on the site gave dozens of likely, though decidedly average, prospects.
His secretary also mailed all of the initial letters with pictures that he had pre-selected, and logged in all of the responses. For subsequent letters, she would select from his vast library of correspondence letters, personalizing each one to be responsive to the information that the woman had enclosed in her response letters and, using her independent judgment, determining which type of response would be most likely to generate the desired level of interest.
He never knew a thing any of about the women that he was going to be seeing on any given trip until he read through a series of portfolios and summaries of each relationship that he was in, created by his secretary a few days before he was due to travel overseas. He chuckled over the difficulties encountered in trying to pretend that he knew all about any given woman who thought that he had actually been involved with her in an exclusive relationship for several months instead of the actual hour or two that he was spending in preparation for their “meeting.” 
As soon as he completed his tour, he rarely communicated with the same woman again, only continuing correspondence when the sexual experience was the most satisfying and he decided that he wanted a repeat performance on a later tour. Never more than two trips because the woman would begin to suspect his intentions or expect something more serious.
 He waxed eloquently over his belief that the major cities in Russia were pretty well picked over and that the improving Russian economy was cutting into both the numbers and quality of women joining the marriage agencies. He was also lamenting that Volgograd was such a small city and that the word would spread quickly among the agency women about his hobby. This vein of gold was going to be tapped out quickly, he confided. One trip was about all he would be able to accomplish as there had already been a few questions in some of the letters about whether he was also writing to other women in the area. He had opened communications in Ukraine but was going to work on the former soviet republics as well.
Damn- and I thought that coin collecting and deep sea fishing were cool hobbies. I had never thought of starting a sex collection.
When I returned to Volgograd just a few months later, I noticed a change in the women-and in the men. Some of Hippoman’s visions of the future appeared to be coming true even faster than he had predicted.

[START2]

Wm.
  No, I wasn't trying to blur any edges. I couldn't put my finger on what constituted a true sex tourist. With your post there appears to be a clear definition and I can accept that extreme or not. I assume there will be variations.

[Mir]

Wm

Maybe your story is as you know/narrated it.
I suspect hipoman was loaded and the secretary might be arranging meetings with good looking escorts rather then Russian women looking for husbands.
Or maybe he payed the escorts and made up the story.

[DKMM]

Well Mir in any case, those types of girls wouldn't be far from escorts anyhow.  This is why its good that the economy is improving there so it weeds out the wrong people from this business, both male and female.

[William3rd]

Nope- totally a factual experience. Not escorts. Love and marriage and etc. Wholesome girls. Definitely he had the money-to have a correspondence secretary.

This is a version called WMVMSA. At least he was honest about what he was doing- with the bystanders, anyway.

Since when do escorts go to breakfast and interact with their "John."

[Mir]

Since when do escorts go to breakfast and interact with their "John."

Since they started work as one......
I am not trying to be funny but are you really that naive (in a nice innocent way) or just trying to be?

[Mir]

Well Mir in any case, those types of girls wouldn't be far from escorts anyhow

You mean the difference between them and escorts would be as subtle as the difference between some men looking for wives and sex tourists

[William3rd]

Maybe your escort experiences are more far reaching than mine. . .
especially when it comes to FSU variety but, to call me naive-

I have had a grand total of 90 FSU trips in the last 10 years. sometimes looking and other times just working.

[Kuna]

Start,

It's an interesting but complex topic...

I think it's almost impossible to define a "Sex Tourist" because it depends on the values of each individual.

For me it depends on the intent of the individual.

If someone is travelling to FSU and pretending or suggesting he is seeking marriage (You are doing this if you're making your contact through dating or marriage agencies and sites) but is actually just there for a jolly good time - then he is a sex tourist.

I little problem with a guy travelling to FSU and actively using hookers because there is a clear transaction and no deception.  What irritates me is when I hear of men deceiving women who are seeking marriage just so he can get his rocks off.

I imagine these men do very poorly with women at home (for whatever reason) and therefore they seek out someone they consider disadvantaged so they can have some "control" over a situation they would never experience at home.

Anyone that travels to FSU and meets a woman is thinking about sex...  but what is he SEEKING?

If he is only seeking sex it's abhorant to use the marriage and dating sites.  If he's such a big man he should pick up women as he normally would at home (if he could)... or just use hookers.

Any man that is genuinely seeking marriage should be a real man though and not try to exploit the situation for his own sexual gratification.

Should anyone be labelled as a "sex tourist"...  it just depends on his INTENT!

Kuna

[Mir]

Maybe your escort experiences are more far reaching than mine. . .
especially when it comes to FSU variety but, to call me naive-

I have had a grand total of 90 FSU trips in the last 10 years. sometimes looking and other times just working.

Was expected, also shows why you were trying to act innocent......

[William3rd]

Do you have any idea what you are talking about-or is it just the Memorial Day Weekend? 

Aint no issue of innocence here- I watched the sex tourists come and go for years. Always a "serious man" seeking marriage. . . .

[Mir]

Wm

I am sure you have.
However I have met several rich men with escorts on their arms, both in Ukraine and Europe who behave like their girlfriends, what makes them stand out is the advanced age/physical repulsiveness of the men and the youth/beauty of the women.
Your comment that escorts don't come to breakfast and interact with the client showed either you don't know what an high class escort is (unlikely) or you were trying to show that you don't know,  The fact is:'Do you know what you are talking about?' should have been my line but I tried to be polite to you.
I did not try to imply that you have used escorts, like you did about me in your rebuttal. Yes I know about this business, I also know a lot about military aircraft, tanks and guns although I have never been in the army.
I also know a lot about Ferraris and Lamborghinis though I have never owned one and I know a lot of world history though I don't have a degree in it.
Now shall we return to the topic under discussion or do you want to keep grating this desk?
Have a nice day

[William3rd]

Sorry- you are too anal for me.

  I think I will avoid you in the future because, after reading large numbers of your posts, they seem to fall in the same genre. Faux argumentation over straw subjects.

[Mir]

Actually I am far too much disorganized to be even remotely anal.
Once again I wonder: 'Does he know........about?'(but I will not say it)

[START2]

Kuna,
   Good view. I agree that if a man tries to deceive the woman into thinking he's there for honorable relations when actually he's using her for his own purposes and leads her on, there has to be a worse term for him than sex tourist. That's something I didn't think about. 
  So if the guy strikes out with his pre-arrangements, and uses the agencies as back-up, what would his status be if he were think he's not going home without?
  It is a difficult determine the intent. One of my trips there was to visit a gal I had been with before. There was no way we were going to be married but we enjoyed each other immensely. Fun wise and fun wise.There was no deceipt on either side and we were meeting for only one purpose.
  Is the biggest consideration here intent to deceive?

  Mir, please give it a freaking rest!! Your argumentative posts reminds me of a woman I use to know.

[Kuna]

  So if the guy strikes out with his pre-arrangements, and uses the agencies as back-up, what would his status be if he were think he's not going home without?

To me a guy using a backup plan (agency) and getting lucky isn't an issue as long as intentions are clear and proper.  If he were such a good catch and not grossly trading up, a bit of honesty might actually get him laid anyway!

I don't think the problem is sex... it's deceit.

  It is a difficult determine the intent.

It IS difficult to determine someone else's intent but it's not impossible.  Example? There's a recent Trip Reporter who, in my opinion, is only dating in FSU for one reason.  A number of times he's said things like "I'm not using marriage agencies, I'm using dating sites" (as a way of justifying his actions) and "I'm not desperate to marry but would consider it if the right lady comes along" (leaving an "out" at the end of his trip as a reason why he doesn't find someone to build a relationship with).

If he was so cautious over finding the right woman perhaps keeping his pants on would work better than maneuvering them into his apartment and then getting pi55ed off when they're not impressed by photos of his house and money talk.

In all reality I should just ignore these types but it "5hits me" to know they're here collecting info and researching methods that will be used to exploit the women.  These types of men are too cheap to pay for hookers therefore they'll deceive for personal benefit.

  Is the biggest consideration here intent to deceive?

In my mind those that deceive are the lowest form of sex tourist.  A loser that goes all that way to pay a hooker for something he can't get at home is pretty sad... but someone that lies to women (who are seeking marriage) just to get their rocks off needs a good hard kick in the pants!

Of course we all have our own set of values we live our lives by but I think the best test is for someone to be honest when asking himself, "Would I be happy if someone treated my sister or daughter like this?"

[START2]

Kuna,
  Thanks for hangin with me on this.
  When I started to think about the term I kind of looked at myself in retrospect wondering what my intentions were after my first couple visits. Hell, I was having so much fun with my Ukr friends. I can say there was never deceipt while visiting but I can't remember exactly when it was I decided I would make a particular visit to look for a wife. I don't think I ever did in that respect. I do at some point remember thinking if I would ever be married again it would with an FSU woman. I met my wife by chance and feelings grew from there. I liked the way it happened. There was never any
pressure with time or how often I could leave work and go.
  I believe that it's possible that most men will not admit in a public forum or to themself that other things might be on their mind when planning a trip to the FSU to wife search.
  I think you were there in winter. Wait till you visit again when the weather's warm. It's soon, da? You're in for a treat and don't forget your sunglasses.
 

[Kuna]

Start,

Two days to go...  two long days!  ;-)

Maybe it's because I've already found the most amazing girl but the thought of short skirts and high heals isn't anywhere near as enticing as knowing in a few days we'll be sitting together at home eating a home cooked meal with her family.

Oh, good point about the sunnies though....  I'll pack them now!