Trip From Hell!!!

[Rvrwind]

Sorry WO, it is true. Both incidents you mentioned were not in the west. They were in Europe, a far cry from the west. When we talk the west we mean the USA & Canada. European laws in most countries are not a whole lot better than Russia's, but in some they are, but to compare Europe or Russia to the West is like trying to compare Pumpkins & Watermelon!
I do feel for you as I know what it is like, but as I said in The West things are different.

[BradSTL]

Richard--- Incredible story!  Leaves me speechless to see a visa process so out of control.  You would think Russia could handle so many of these problems in Tver.

I know oil money is producing some tangible improvements there... but the shine that oil bucks provide has been seen in the USA before... like... in **** TEXAS **** in the late 70's.  Then the great price break occurred and Texas was on its back for a while.

My intuition tells me this economic boom in Russia is a mirage- of sorts.  That a big economic recession is not far away.

You are a survivor!

[Phil dAmore]

Slightly off-topic:

As of June 1st, The Estonian Russian Consulate will no longer issue tourist visas to non-Estonian citizens.  Business, work and student visas are still being issued though.

[Wild Orchid*]

Sorry WO, it is true. Both incidents you mentioned were not in the west. They were in Europe, a far cry from the west. When we talk the west we mean the USA & Canada. European laws in most countries are not a whole lot better than Russia's, but in some they are, but to compare Europe or Russia to the West is like trying to compare Pumpkins & Watermelon!
I do feel for you as I know what it is like, but as I said in The West things are different.

So our Australia isn't Western enough for you? "Rainman" said that Qantas is the best airline in the world   Travelagent was Australian too...
I can't believe that you said .. see bold. May be due to your arrogance you think so, but the rest of the World has broader meaning of West than yours..  

BTW I've seen some TV show about American airlines and airport. Looks like a person should consider him/her-self lucky if managed to get from A to B without delay and lost luggage... Problems of Western World I guess.

[Wayne B]

Wild Orchid, I have to agree with you.....two times this year....Delta from New York to Kiev...I made it there but, my luggage decided to stay in New York    It is nice to wear the same cloths for three days

[chivo]

A few things:

Sorry to say, but many of the problems could have been avoided.

I understand all about the things that can drive you crazy here, but it's not much different anywhere, regardless of what you think. I've had the same experiences dealing with the government agencies in Los Angeles (worse actually), the only difference was I could go home and sleep in my own bed at night.

I've renewed my visa a number of times, and except for the first time (my fault BTW), I haven't had any problems. I'm still wondering why you chose to go to Finland instead of Estonia, for instance. The train I take to Tallinn stops in Tver on the way. It's also just a 2 day process to obtain the visa.

Richard, I've never met you, but you seem like a nice guy. Someone who tries to live by his word. A no bullshit guy who does what he says and expects others to do the same. A rare bird indeed, and getting rarer. BUT...sometimes I get the feeling you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. If things are black, then they're black. Why in hell would I try to change it if I know I can't? It has taken sometime, but I found out that it's much better to roll with the punches than to keep taking them head on.

Russia is what it is. Anyone thinking they're going to come here and impose some western way of doing things is in for a big surprise, and ultimately disappointment. As much as we like to think things could be better, our best bet is to accept things as they are, and try to make our own personal life better. It's what I try to do.

JB, with all due respect, with the possible exception of Vancouver, you couldn't pay me enough to get me to move from Moscow to Canada. Nothing against the country, but I'd probably kill myself from the boredom, and that's not even mentioning the brutal tax laws they have there. But, yes, it is his country.

If anyone who lives in America, Canada, or wherever thinks they live in a country that doesn't have problems on the scale of what's is happening in Russia, should think again. I think America is a great country, it's my country, I love it, and will defend it every chance I get. BUT..., are you telling me it doesn't have a lot of serious problems? Are you kidding me?

With regards to people here always trying to take you for what they can get, all I have to say to that is the only difference i've found with Americans and Russians is that Americans will smile while they're trying to screw you. The absolute biggest lying, two faced, snake of a man piece of shit I met here was from Canada. I worked with him for about a year before he suddenly left taking most of the company's money with him. They're still looking for him.

I'm from California. California is such a "police state" that you can't fart without some bureaucrat smelling it to make sure everything's on the up and up, while of course they try to get away with everything. I personally think many of the freedoms we (Americans) enjoyed in the past are slowly going by the wayside, for whatever the reason.

As a foreigner here in Moscow, I feel I have more autonomy here and therefore more freedom. Maybe (probably) for the locals its a different story.

Don't get me wrong, some things here in Russia make you wonder what the hell is going on. Is that any different anywhere? Are you telling me that you never ask yourself these questions living in America, Canada, or bumf*ck Egypt.

Currently I'm doing fine here. I haven't for a minute regretted coming here. I make more money than I ever have. I have an interesting life filled with people whom I'm grateful to know. Some of the best people I've ever met in my life live here. The personal growth I've seen in myself since my move cannot be denied. I am also learning a new language and culture.

Yes I made some sacrifices by living here, but they sacrifices pale in comparison to the benefits I've experienced. I've had many more good times than bad...many more. Funny how I never hear myself saying "I wish I was in Los Angeles"...never.

As far as the economy, well its been steadily growing in Russia for 8 years now. Yes maybe it will all blow up soon, who knows? You can make the same predictions for America's economic situation. Its moot to even try.

I've always said that if you don't like your situation or where you live, then change. I certainly wouldn't want to be in a place that I didn't like. I also think that life is what you make it regardless of the circumstances. Most (a great majority) of the time we make the bed in which we lie, and most of the time when something goes wrong we tend to place blame on things other than ourselves.

Richard, I feel your frustration brother, I really do. Russia could do much, much better, no doubt. So could a lot of places. I do think things have been improving, even though there's a long way to go. Russia is certainly not for everyone.

Sounds like you've made up your mind, but part of me wonders if maybe you were talking out of frustration. I mean if things were so good in Canada, why didn't you bring your wife there in the first place? If it was because she wanted to be by her family, well what about her family now that you're leaving?

I'm sure you had a good reason. Maybe its Tver. I'm sure its an OK place, nothing against it, but I know I couldn't live there. Maybe you would have been better served setting up shop in Moscow as oppose to Tver, who knows? I do know at least financially speaking you would have, as there are just too many opportunities for both you and your wife here compared to Tver.

Anyway, whatever the case may be, I wish you good luck in the future, which ever road you chose to take. We all deserve the best, but like you say, dying is easy, its living that's hard. Ciao.

chivo


 

[BC]

I agree with chivo on many of his points.  There are a lot of quirks that come with each country and probably the most difficult step is to quit comparing problems of one country with that of another.. it simply does no good. - after all you can't be in both at the same time.  I can tell some tales that rival those RVR experienced.  How about applying for residency here and being told I had to go back to the US to apply.. - yeah right..

I used to get a little ruffled having to officially register each time I moved .. - thinking that I would not have to do such in the US, that some 'right' was being infringed upon.  Then again, I thought long and hard about it and figured in essence even in the US, I am 'registering' each time I apply for a drivers licence, open a bank account, rent or buy a home or want to file a tax return.  In fact I learned that being 'found' in the US is much easier than here and it can be done by ANYONE online!  Indeed, my privacy here is probably better protected than elsewhere.

These just examples and not start of another east vs west discussion.

I think this thread does delve in to the topic of 'adjustment', just that in this case it's a man instead of woman that is faced with doing the adjusting.

RVR, I fully understand your frustration but think if your business projects had flourished your outlook today would be very different.

Yeah, getting a visa anywhere is a PIA and the 'i's' better be dotted.. that's universal and you are not alone - after all they don't install bulletproof glass without good reason!

[Mir]

Chivo

Hats of to you as it is one of the best posts I have seen, and it is good that there is at least one American on this forum who is not afraid to acknowledge there are problems with the great US of A.
However if you ever try to mention any of these problems in specific details you are sure to snubbed as quoting socialist propaganda

[WmGO]

  When we talk the west we mean the USA & Canada.

Not to take away from your screwed up trip full of wonderful Russian beauracracy, but "the West" refers to Western Civilization which means: Western, Southern and Northern Europe, Great Britain, Iceland and Greenland, Australia and New Zealand as well as the USA and Canada.

Sorry you got shafted again. Russia is a rather hellish place to live for Westerners not akin to so much backwardsness and lunacy.

[Mamma D]

 

AND tell all of us again, the percs of living outside the Good Old U S A 

Mamma D

[ScottinCrimea]

Perc #1 - Lots fewer lawyers!

[wxman]

Moving anywhere away from one's home will always present new problems or different ways of doing things. I'm sure a foreign business coming to the US, or doing business in the US, will find our federal tax codes almost impossible to figure out, and then having to figure out each state, county and city tax codes. Too many lawyers? Probably too many tax accountants and lawyers!

When I travel to different states, I run into different rules, which from where I look would appear stupid. Why do I need someone to pump my gas in New Jersey? When I lived in Memphis, why could I not buy my beer from a liquor store, but instead had to buy from a convenience store or grocery store? Or in my state, why one can't operate a casino without a liquor license?

Every country and city presents it's own set of unique problems. Sometimes they are more than we wish to deal with, and makes us reconsider whether we wish to stay or not. When I go to Ukraine, I wonder how I could live there. Of course I would be capable of westernizing my personal space, but would that be enough? I probably will give it a try in a few years, but there is no guarantee that I will be able to adapt, and adapt I must in order to fit in.

What Richard went through would be more than I could deal with, and he does it almost on a daily basis, and he fits in more than the rest of us, living a truly Russian lifestyle. The same goes for Scott, Chivo and any other westerner living in the FSU I have not mentioned. These guys give us a unique perspective of life in the FSU for a westerner that one can not learn just by visiting.

[ScottinCrimea]

When I first came back to the US, I noticed the conveniences, the cleanliness and apparent orderliness and thought maybe it wasn't so bad living here, but over the past few days I've realized that I am really homesick for Ukraine.  I'm starting to see more the shallowness of people and life here.  So much is based on materialistic thinking and trying to get ahead, or at least get caught up.  Over time I'm having to deal more with the everyday complications and expenses of living in the US that one just doesn't think about until they have been away from it for awhile.  There is just a fullness of life in Ukraine that is difficult to describe to someone who hasn't experienced it for some length of time.

Sure there are some frustrations with living in Ukraine, but I'll trade them for the frustrations of living in the US any day.  It's amazing how many things I just accepted and thought of as normal in the US I am unable to tolerate now.  I don't think someone can have a good picture of this unless they fully integrate into the foreign society.

I can certainly understand Rvrwind's frustrations.  I think if I had to try to run a business in Ukraine it might drive me nuts too.  Unfortunately he has had to deal with some bad people and it has tainted his whole perspective.  I believe this could have happened in Canada just as easily as it happened in Russia.  Things like that happen in every country. I've certainly gotten screwed a few times without ever having to cross the US border. I have also met my share of bad people here, just as I did in the US.  I guess we all have our different breaking points.  I've already seen a few WM try to live in Ukraine and give up after awhile.  I've also seen a few that are handling it quite successfully and are very happy. It's hard to predict who will make it and who won't.

I'm still firm in my belief that moving to Ukraine was one of the best decisions I ever made.  I'll live at least 10 years longer and enjoy those years much more.  I may not die with a lot of toys and a big house, but I'll be debt free and have a lifetime of great memories of something besides the inside of a hospital and the interior of my car.

[Wayne B]

Chivo

Hats of to you as it is one of the best posts I have seen, and it is good that there is at least one American on this forum who is not afraid to acknowledge there are problems with the great US of A.
However if you ever try to mention any of these problems in specific details you are sure to snubbed as quoting socialist propaganda

   Chivo, good very good ............ Mir, good and you are right ...We all have problems in what ever country we decide to hang our hat in.....I guess where a person has been born and lived, there to, may I say till...Adult status....then maybe we as Adults...can begin to see the flaws in our own country's.....only after we have had an opportunity to visit another country......then we try to compare between my/their's.......I can only say, that I want to vision a day where we have 'no' restrictions on travel to where ever 'one' may want to go......See for one's self.....and decide if this is where you would like to hang your hat....without the BS. 

[Rvrwind]

Chivo, dewd, you may not be one of the most prolific posters on this board but you certainly are one of the most thought provoking. I can tell you are intelligent & thoughtful in all you say & for that I give you much credit. Don't know why we have never met as we live so close & I work in Moscow?
After reading your post & Scott's I did some thinking. I've been back a few days now & have had time to calm down & think as I get back into my normal routine.
I think a lot of my frustration stems from what the ladies going abroad would go through after a period of time. I have been here going on 5 years now, without a break. I have not left the country other than to get a new visa & actually for about 3 years I didn't have to do even that. Call it boredome or whatever I guess I am just letting all the little things get to me lately. I certainly know that Canada is far from perfect of that there is no doubt. I have been screwed over there as well by fellow Canadians who are not perfect either.
I'm not exactly sure what it is but I think it may be that I have crossed a threshold or something as things were fine before, it just lately that everything seem to be getting on my nerves. Maybe I need to go back to Canada for awhile just to remind me why I chose to come here in th first place. I know there are many things here that need, not so much changing, but streamlining, as nothing is easy.
When I first started trying to get a business going I was totally lost as in how complicated it was, in Canada it took me 20 minutes, here it takes a month or more! Maybe they have their reasons for it but I just don't see it, sorry.
I think I need a break & yes much of my frustration stems from trying to operate a business surrounded by thieves that are visably making way more money than we are being honest. The frustration I feel over that is beyond the comprehension of many.
I will return to Canada in October & see what I see. Valya may or may not come at that time. The idea I had for a business there just got shot to pieces by a friend who emailed me the other day so I don't know whats going to happen now. I do know I need a change & I need it soon.
A change is better than a rest some say!
As for those arguing East & West, Well I was taught that Europe & Asia were the Eastern Hemisphere & Canada & the US the Western Hemisphere, Hence East & West, Europe is only West if you live in Asia, if you live in the West it is East, go figure.

[Mir]

As WmGo has rightly pointed out, the West means Western civilization. Much of the thoughts and cultural values of this civilization have been formed by the Germanic people who spread over Europe when the Western Roman empire collapsed. The various tribe, Almenai,Franks,Angles,Saxons etc have had the most profound influence on the world history over the last 1500 years. USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand regardless of where they are situated on the globe are mere extensions of this Western Civilization.
Russia (and other Slavic lands) were more or less in the middle of the West and the East and so have features of both plus their own.Bureaucratic red tape is a fact of life in all the Middle East,it was prevalent since Byzantine times and Russia has adopted this along with the religion.