Do you think this hurts the genuine guys?

[supranatural]

I've run into something interesting which although it's talked about a bit here and there, I've never seen it addressed in depth.  What I'm talking about are keyboard Romeo's, the guys who write to women but never go visit.  I know the stats are that typically only 5% of the guys who write ever really go over to visit, and I suspect that with the economic conditions improving over there the numbers will drop down even lower.  I kind of ran into this the other day - as some of you know, I was married for 5 years to a nice RW but we are in process of divorce now (amicable).  I've started writing to women again but IMO have not really found someone that I've wanted to visit just yet.  I found one that I was very interested in but as it turns out after talking to the agency that she is no longer accepting letters/correspondence from anyone unless they are actually getting ready to visit her home city.  The reason she cited was that she was tired of corresponding with men who never visited (she's fairly popular from what I can discern).  Of course IMO this hurts guys like me and others who are serious about this endeavor and who have every intention to visit (I'm planning to be in Russia in August or September at the latest).

What's your opinions?  Have you run into women who are jaded by guys who write (and talk a good game) but never visit in the end?

[Simoni]

With 100% certainty, I can say it DOES make girls suspect the intentions of guys who write. 

The solution is simple--don't write more than a half dozen letters.  Tell her up front that you will be in her city on X date and that you want to meet her. Don't expect a girl to write you for months. If she does, she may be a scammer. (writing for months is good, AFTER you meet her)

A second problem is that girls don't like Americans, because they have met many who come to the FSU for sex, and who are not serious about marriage and family.

[Nando]

Funny enough I am jaded by women who like to correspond and then talking on the phone but when we set a date to visit them, try to delay or change the date, or became "afraid" like one said to me.
So this time I will just go there and meet women from an agency where the women don't like correspondence too.
Maybe this only happened to me but I just fed up with correspondence
 

[Sort]

Maybe this only happened to me but I just fed up with correspondence

I agree with ya m8.
I am so d a m n tired of correspondence.
I will be going down in July or September to Nikolaev and meet some from a agency but i will try to meet "normal" girls to.

[catzenmouse]

A second problem is that girls don't like Americans, because they have met many who come to the FSU for sex, and who are not serious about marriage and family.

Heck, there's tons of Americans that "I" don't like...

I think this attitude depends a lot on where the girl is. The big cities with easy access are where the majority of folks looking for a hit an run go to. They don't want to waste their time riding the bus or train to some off the beaten track place. So... if you want to avoid this then you might just think about getting off that beaten track a bit.

FWIW,
 Ken

[MaxxumUSA]

Heck, there's tons of Americans that "I" don't like...

I think this attitude depends a lot on where the girl is. The big cities with easy access are where the majority of folks looking for a hit an run go to. They don't want to waste their time riding the bus or train to some off the beaten track place. So... if you want to avoid this then you might just think about getting off that beaten track a bit.

FWIW,
 Ken

I totally agree...  especially because my girl IS off the beaten path.  There were not any bad things said about americans in Samara that I knew of.  I don't know of any agency there other than a business man that caters to american men for his hotel.  He has a list of women interested in foreign men on his site.  His site is www.stayinsamara.com His name is Mikhail.  He is also available to translate and owns a hotel, will pick you up at the airport.  The whole nine yards.

Mikhail helped me with my surprise engagement to Elena during my second visit to her.  I paid him only a little money for his services and flowers he prepared for her.  He told me he owed me a refund because I overpaid but I refused it as his tip.


Hey...  I just verified that link.  A couple cuties there.  No fees at all.  ZERO SCAMMERS.  Guaranteed by me...  I have met him in person.  Have at 'em boys!

[Simoni]

Heck, there's tons of Americans that "I" don't like...

I think this attitude depends a lot on where the girl is. The big cities with easy access are where the majority of folks looking for a hit an run go to. They don't want to waste their time riding the bus or train to some off the beaten track place. So... if you want to avoid this then you might just think about getting off that beaten track a bit.

FWIW,
 Ken

That's very true...and a good arguement for getting away from Moscow or Kiev, and to cities that don't have so many "tourists." 

[Wayne B]

Big cities can offer serious minded women.....The thing that is important is to write a few letters to women who are close together....give them the date that you will arrive 1,2 months in advance and go meet them.....treat them with being sincere in your actions and treat them with respect........These women 'do not' have the amount of free time that most of us men enjoy.....but, to show yourself in person....will gain you much respect!!!....and if it doesn't work out with her?....because you gained her 'respect'....she may introduce you to her friend or cousin    

[catzenmouse]

No doubt about it Wayne. I did not mean to say that there were not excellent women in the major cities. We have some fine examples of big city girl marriages right here in our own jb and groov.

It is only natural that there would be more of this kind of thinking in the main destinations.

Ken

[Wayne B]

Yes Ken, I knew what you meant.....Kharkov, is the second largest city in Ukraine....no bells and whistles like Kiev but, there are fine restraunts and night clubs and the people there seem to be much more friendly to foriengers of all colors....I think because of the many Universities there....and the prices are much less than in Kiev....so far?   Kharkov, is a city off of the beaten path.....so far

[Daveman]

Yeah, it does hurt the good guys, but not too much. Most of these good ladies are determined to sift through the crap, just like we are, to find their treasure.

I think I mentioned in another post somewhere a guy who was writing to a friend of my lady in Omsk.  It was her first internet search experience and he was smooth. He spoke about love, marriage, soul mates, and all kinds of keyboard romeo crap, and she fell for it hook, line, and sinker.  When I was in Omsk, she (her friend) asked me many things about internet dating.  I told her point blank that until he comes to meet you and your relations merge with real life, you have nothing but an email fantasy.  Of course she defended him and her relations with him.  I spoke to the guy, for a few minutes on the phone and he told me how much he cared about the lady, that he wanted to marry her, etc. (refraining from comments about such things prior to even meeting).  He told me of his concern about traveling to Russia and that he was worried that someone would attack him because he's American.  I told him it's no big deal and that he'd have a great time, just get his ass on the plane and GO. 

Well, about a week later, he told the woman that he could not go because someone would kill him - the twist being, he began to write to OTHER ladies in Omsk (talk about an idiot), and of course as chance would have it, they all knew each other.  Sheesh.  So, he was 'blacklisted'  by word of mouth. Good for them.  Without other positive responses, he began to write the first lady again... she told him to get lost... a little more wise from the experience.  Good for her. 

The friend was pretty hurt over it all, but most of the ladies do seem to realize that there are bad apples on both sides of the scene.  It hurts the good guys in that suspicion and paranoia has increased, same as it has for the guys with the scammers, gold diggers, and pro daters. 

Overall, I think our chances are hurt less than their chances because I think most of them actually look at this the right way... that the guys writing to them are nothing but cyber ink until they actually come to meet.  I think the men are more apt to believe the hype than the ladies are, but opening hearts too soon is not a wise thing for either.

Dave

P.S. Yeah Wayne B, Kharkov is awesome...    a wonderful city to visit and a great share of lovely single ladies. 

[MaxxumUSA]

Hehe...

Daveman...

When I first started writing women in my introduction letter I stated that I am serious about wife, family, blah blah and also made it very clear I am willing and ready to travel wherever I find my woman to visit.

This prompted a rather high level of responses.

My Elena was shocked that I was coming to visit after only talking to her for a few days.  After I had my visa and plane tickets in hand, I showed her on the webcam.  Our conversations became much better because she knew I was telling the truth and was actually following through with my words.  It gained me a HUGE amount of respect from her.

When I made my second visit only a short time after my first...  she felt like it was a dream come true in some ways while I was there.  For the record I already have tickets for my third trip - June 20-July 4.  Her family and friends know we are serious at this point and support us very much.

She is a beautiful woman so she had many keyboard romeos trying to romance her.  She was on Elena's Models site for 9 months before I sent her my first email.  Only that site.  I was the first man to follow through with a visit.  I'm not sure how things would have worked out if I were the third or fourth man to visit her.  Not that I am afraid of competition...  but it sure is a whole lot easier with NO competition.  After meeting her and us falling in love...  I think to myself why on earth did all those men NOT come to see her before me?  Thank goodness she was still available and thank goodness I gained such high respect just for simply getting my ass on a plane.

[Wayne B]

Maxxum, words are cheap on paper but, words have 'meaning' when two come together eye to eye.......I wonder if it helped me with Anna to have my teeth whitened....

[macman]

Hey Maxxum -

Are/where you a WOVO man? 

 ???
macman

[Simoni]

Heck, MacMan...

Most of us start out as WOVO men...

First time....WOVO
Second trip...WOVO
Third trip...WOVO
Fourth trip...WOVO

Then I tried a different method, and WMVM...twice.  The last time I found my girl, and became a WOVO from then on, until I brought her home with me.

For most, who want to be pure, things start out like they did for me.  But since the odds are WAY against connecting with only one girl, I recommend WMVM in a casual way, just meeting girls before getting serious. Then you can get serious with the one you want...and who wants you.

[macman]

Thanks Bro,

Great advice and a good chuckle 1st time, etc. . . I think my best attempt at having a backup plan will be after my meeting and "We" both find out there's no chemistry - I'll wonder into an agency and go from there.

Just seems to be a hot topic today!

c ya.
macman

[Daveman]

I think my best attempt at having a backup plan will be after my meeting and "We" both find out there's no chemistry - I'll wonder into an agency and go from there.

Hey Macman, when you are in a foreign land, and if things fall through with the one girl, the amount of tension you will experience with leap upwards if you don't have a firm alternate plan in place.  Check out some agencies ahead of time, get to know as much as you can PRIOR to arrival.  Having done your homework will elevate your comfort level during the process of meeting and the trip itself.

Having something concrete and preplanned to fall back upon gives you a much more relaxed attitude about the meeting, less pressure on yourself, and being 'at ease' in this gives you a clear mind to think with while you are visiting the one you're interested in. Relaxed yet remaining focused. That's the mindset you want to have.

Dave, I agree with you... letting the woman know you are serious about travel gets the response rate as well as the genuine interest levels elevated.  Nando seemed to have a different experience with this, but I personally haven't seen a woman with interest ever postpone a trip or say she's afraid to meet.  Something seems a bit unusual there though I certainly haven't corresponded with every woman in the FSU, tempting as that was.. 

I also had my profile on Elenas professionally translated into Russian so the ladies could read about me more easily, including the same statement of "I am ready to travel to meet you... blah blah"

My travel experience is also exactly what Simoni describes..

First trip WOVO,
Second trip WOVO
Third trip WOVO and seemed to have gotten very lucky... not a home run yet, but, maybe.. so now definitely WOVO for future trips with her..

Next 'dating' trip - if necessary, definitely NOT WOVO... some kind of casual 'meet many' approach.

The Other Dave

[MaxxumUSA]

Hey Maxxum -

Are/where you a WOVO man? 

 ???
macman

Yes.

I knew nothing about the forums.  I used Elenasmodels.com and read her E-book "how to marry a girl like me."  I only found the forums AFTER my first trip.  I was going nuts not being able to talk about my experience with like minded fellows so I sought a forum out.

From that E-Book I actually followed about 80% of her advice.  Some of the advice I used common sense to weed out.  But I did make a list of my needs, wants, and lists of what I wanted in a woman.  I took my search seriously and was lucky to find a woman early in my search.

I literally started during Christmas break 2006.  So...  December 26th.  By Dec 29th or so I had a long generic intro letter translated into russian which I emailed about 20 or so women out the the thousands of profiles I had viewed.  Almost all responded positively.

But there was something about Elena that stood out.  And it was not only her looks.  All of the woman I emailed were beautiful.  Some more than others but definitely all high on the scale.  We exchanged skype names and real email addresses by about Jan 2.  By Jan 9th we both hid our profiles on ElenasModels.com and I had visa in hand and plane tickets to visit her exclusively.

I planned to visit her for 4 days Feb 2-6 but extended for one day to spend just a little more time with her.  That final night we had a talk and agreed we wanted a very serious relationship.  We filed the K-1 March 13th - before an official proposal.

My second trip was the first three weeks in April.  We lived together as a couple in her flat.  I worked using my computer and skype to call clients.  She talked to me and kept me company in between calls.  We spent the days exploring new places for me.  I work from 9-5 so that is 6pm - 2 am samara time.  We got officially engaged the first weekend of this second trip and had about 4 parties with friends and family over the next few weeks.  We were like peas and carrots.  Very loving as we both like this in a relationship.  We couldn't be happier.

I have my plane tickets in hand for my third visit already this year.  Going to stay only two weeks this trip.  June 20-July4.

That's the basic of my story.  If you search my posts you can see my trip report.

Good luck to you.

- David

[Zhena]

Supranatural,
do you think the scammers hurt the reputation of genuine girls? This is an answer on your question.

About those girls who dont like americans...I surprised that you even met them because if the girl doesnt like the americans,she logically wont meet any of them. If she meets you and tell you that she doesnt like you,I would be confused about her goals ??? She probably wants soemthing from you-but she doesnt like you and doesnt trust you-what might she want? The answer is obvious ( for me,but not for many men )

[Gator]

Supranatural,

This is not rocket science.  Women who are jaded by the process will not answer your letters.

Women who respond to your first letter are interested.  To maintain and enhance their interest, be truthful about your intentions.  However, many may not believe you because keyboard romeos lie that they will be traveling soon. 

Russian are suspicious and skeptic, particularly the Russian women.  They have heard it all before.  It is up to you to seize the moment - RW appreciate such behavior.

[catzenmouse]

The answer is obvious ( for me,but not for many men )

ZING! Bingo!

Ken

[I/O]

S/N To address your original questions, yes it is a fact of this whole pursuit now that many are treating it with skepticism for obvious reasons.  Key Board Romeos, Scammers etc. 

I noticed this trend quite some time back and I also found it frustrating for several reasons, not least of all that many of the Russian women had become so frustrated with the idiots, they also had fallen into the trap of being totally unrealistic in their expectations, particularly in the area of time frames. 

I struck some, who I'm certain were delightful women however were expecting a visit within the first month or so of communications and any longer time frame was unacceptable to them.  I suspect they would have never found what they were looking for abroad and particularly outside Europe as it is simply impossible to arrange visas, travel and other logistical things within a short time frame and I was certainly not going to pack up and travel that distance without I'd learned at least a little about this person. Learning takes time.

A number of people have commented the improving economic situation In Russia and the FSU will reduce if not remove the opportunities to meet women there as they currently exist.  Frankly I don't entirely agree with this as I see Russia now being in one of it's historical eco/political cycles and perhaps ending up right back where it started. However, I do suspect the opportunities will reduce for another reason and that is the the constant flow of idiots onto websites and to some extent into Russia itself who have no hope, means or intention of ever getting serious about a Russian woman. Who can blame the Russian women for becoming skeptical?

Why do scammers exist?  Why do dream seekers polute this pursuit? Because they can. It is that simple. Do they spoil it for the genuine people? You betcha..!! Men need to lift their game if they want to limit the opportunities for scammers and as my "Significant other" says, Russian women have to lift their game if they want to generally attract a better class of man to Russia on a consistent basis.

With respect to men lifting their game, I was naive enough to think these boards and the people on them were pursuing that, but from some of the things I've seen recently, I now doubt that.  I don't see the situation as is stands now improving anytime soon.  I am thankful I am not now searching and if I ever found myself in that situation again, I doubt I would bother.

I/O   

[macman]

I/O,

Your written articulation of "our" common goal is quite good and applicable to us all.  Thanks. . . I hope this last trip for you is the best trip.  Personally; I did Estonia for 3 years - much money, time and emotions spent to develop what never developed.  While I am somewhat incredulous to "this" current adventure/journey, I feel pulled, driven or led to achieve in this manner.  Time will tell.


God Speed man. . .
Macman

[philb]

Supranatural,
do you think the scammers hurt the reputation of genuine girls? This is an answer on your question.

About those girls who dont like americans...I surprised that you even met them because if the girl doesnt like the americans,she logically wont meet any of them. If she meets you and tell you that she doesnt like you,I would be confused about her goals ??? She probably wants soemthing from you-but she doesnt like you and doesnt trust you-what might she want? The answer is obvious ( for me,but not for many men )

Everyone ought to read the above again.

I can't beleive the crap that gets posted here sometimes.  Don't go to Kiev, Don't go to Moscow, find a simple girl off the beaten track who has not become jaded.  The truth is there are decent women everywhere (even in your hometown for that matter).  Yes it is true that the girls "off the beaten track" are less likely to have met a foreigner, but what difference does that make?  (Unless one is worried that they will somehow come up lacking in comparison.)

As far as guys who write and never visit hurting the "genuine" guys, it really shouldn't matter unless the girl is less than serious or even worse stupid.  Sure some girls will try this and decide it is a waste of time, just like some girls in the USA will try online dating, speed dating , or whatever and decide that these things are not productive.

I have often seen this statistic quoted that less than 5% percent (or some other number) of the men who write actually go and visit.  The truth is it is just a guess.  Heck, I have been to the FSU (large cities and small)  14 times and I have probably visited less than 5% of the women I initially wrote to.  (I was always a write 10 to 20 narrow it down and go visit one guy).

[I/O]

Don't go to Kiev, Don't go to Moscow, find a simple girl off the beaten track who has not become jaded.

Huh...? I kinda missed that in this thread. Oh well. {Shrug}

I/O