Ain't life grand, an evening in Kiev.

[KenC]

For the record my comment was meant to be an observation and not a judgement:)
No doubt everyone has the right to express what they feel.
There has been some discussion about prostitutes, well at times there can be a subtle line between a prostitute and non-pros. I mean you go to a club and find a beautiful lady, approach her and straight away she says $300, well no doubt she is one.But what if she agrees to have a drink with you, and you buy several drinks for her, she leaves with you and you have a nice expensive dinner (paid by you) and eventually at the end of this DATE she sleeps with you.Most likely she does this with different men each time she goes to this club. So by conventional definition she is not a working girl, but then........

With that kind of logic (?) every woman that has sex is a prostitute.
Sorry, not buying it.
KenC

[chivo]

Personally I'm trying to figure out what's so grand about the OP's life.

Let's see. You're in Kiev, OK, cool I guess. You go to clubs around the city and sit in a bar/club and look at girls/women with tourists, but don't really meet any. Well, a "working girl" gave you the eye, congratulations .

I work in the center of Moscow on Tverskaya and see more beautiful RW than my eyes can handle on a daily basis...so what?

You get home at 5-6am (here in Moscow if I go out, 7-8am is my usual get home time). You helped a bouncer, so I guess you're a tough guy, and you got harassed by the police...where is the grand?

If that's the definition of grand, I have died and gone to heaven.

Excuse me for missing something here, but I don't get it. Maybe you're just having a great day, certainly no problem there. Maybe you're just not telling us everything...its possible.

Maybe you want people in other countries to envy you because you are in Kiev, or maybe you're just trying to rustle up some business by telling us that others (the tourists) are possibly getting some.

Sorry, but with all due respect, if you know and are around that many woman, in that town, seems you could do much better than this, I know I do. Ciao.

chivo 

[Mir]

every woman that has sex is a prostitute

Not every, then one who jumps into the sack couple of hours after you first see her does creat doubts

[Mir]

Chivco

I think for the sake of decency he does not write about the fun bits

[KenC]

Not every, then one who jumps into the sack couple of hours after you first see her does creat doubts

Mir,
For the sake of not hijacking this thread, this will be my last comment on "this" subject.  Your position reminds me of an AW I dated before I met my wife.  On our first date she informed me that there would be no sex until the third date.  I told her that that was a bizarre concept.  I also asked her what made her think I wanted sex with her ever?  To prove a point, I did date her twice more.   On our third date she was all over me like a dog in heat!  (Because that was "the date" that we should have sex according to her)  During the course of dinner, she made it clear that she had complete privacy at her place and that "we" wouldn't be disturbed by anyone.  After dinner, drinks and listening to some nice jazz, I took her home.  She got a peck on the cheek at the door and I never called her again. 

In my mind she was a prostitute of the highest order.  The price "to have her" was 3 dates.  There is no "right" or "wrong" time schedule as to when sex is appropriate, it just happens.  One of the finest ladies I dated during that time period ended up being intimate with me on our first date.  It was just right and I certainly never thought any less of her because of it.

There are no hard and fast rules as to when sex is appropriate.  I find your comments ludicrous (at best).
KenC

[wiz]

One of the finest ladies I dated during that time period ended up being intimate with me on our first date.  It was just right and I certainly never thought any less of her because of it.

There are no hard and fast rules as to when sex is appropriate.  I find your comments ludicrous (at best).
KenC

Totally agree with you KenC........

If 2 people fancy eachother it can happen in 10 minutes or 2-5 days..........so what?

Mir obviously likes the romantic notion of winning and dining first before anything happen....LOL

[srsol]

Dammit Jack, I brought up my pix of Kershatyk - great memories!!  Nice to hear your trip is going well and as usual, you're takin' care of the crew.  I thoroughly enjoyed the "evening" trip story - I'm sure the guys there are having a great time.

[START2]

Sigh!!  some of you people are just killin me here. Jack's there having a good time and relating some of his time spent while there. He's not some newbie and as many times as he's been there definately not just a tourist. What is it that's offending you so much? what's posted that you feel you need to see a priest about and pm Dan? This is just a light hearted post from someone having a good time in a great city. Not everything here has to do with the search or mission some of you are on. It doesn't always have to be serious. He's actually giving some great info for those that might want to know where and where not to go if you just open your eyes. BTW, Jack, maybe I missed it but give us a few more names of the decent places you have discovered. Some of you people are acting like nothing more than a bunch of prudes. Some of you are pressing your morals. For you women with the family values, are you staying pure and clean until you are married. Some might even think you to be less than moral for, OMG , having sex before marriage. Where did you draw that line?
  Kyiv is a fun city. I'm glad to see someone is enjoying it. Going dancing has never been more fun than in the FSU. It's seldom you guys will ever be turned down if you ask a lady to dance. Can you say the same for where you live?  
   For those that are only on a serious mission, you will miss out on alot if you just don't take a little time to smile and stop to smell the roses as they say.
  I guess this thread is custom made for the ones that have noting else to do but bitch about something. The usual suspects showed up. I'm glad I don't have to live your life.

[srsol]

Nicely said!

Sigh!!  some of you people are just killin me here. Jack's there having a good time and relating some of his time spent while there. He's not some newbie and as many times as he's been there definately not just a tourist. What is it that's offending you so much? what's posted that you feel you need to see a priest about and pm Dan? This is just a light hearted post from someone having a good time in a great city. Not everything here has to do with the search or mission some of you are on. It doesn't always have to be serious. He's actually giving some great info for those that might want to know where and where not to go if you just open your eyes. BTW, Jack, maybe I missed it but give us a few more names of the decent places you have discovered. Some of you people are acting like nothing more than a bunch of prudes. Some of you are pressing your morals. For you women with the family values, are you staying pure and clean until you are married. Some might even think you to be less than moral for, OMG , having sex before marriage. Where did you draw that line?
  Kyiv is a fun city. I'm glad to see someone is enjoying it. Going dancing has never been more fun than in the FSU. It's seldom you guys will ever be turned down if you ask a lady to dance. Can you say the same for where you live?  
   For those that are only on a serious mission, you will miss out on alot if you just don't take a little time to smile and stop to smell the roses as they say.
  I guess this thread is custom made for the ones that have noting else to do but bitch about something. The usual suspects showed up. I'm glad I don't have to live your life.

[ScottinCrimea]

Start2, I agree completely!  Jack's out to have a great time and apparently he is accomplishing that.  I couldn't be happier or more jealous.  Keep it up, Jack, and please continue to share, as those of us who are stranded in the US have nothing better to do than read your posts, reminesce, and enjoy your trip by proxy.

[wxman]

I also find Jack's posts entertaining. What amazes me is how his post about a night on the town with friends got turned into a discussion of what makes a woman a prostitute.  :noidea:   Oh no, I may have sent this thread spinning off into another direction. 

[Rvrwind]

Couldn't agree more Start2!!!
I will say this though...
In Moscow on Wednesday I saw the most beautiful woman I have ever seen in my life, I kid you not. I have been here going on 5 years & never have I seen a Russian man double take any woman, there's just too many & they are so used to seeing them that they barely notice anymore. I wish I had a decent camera at the time, because I kid you not she walked by & the men were stopping dead in their tracks to watch her.
I was walking a little behind her as we were headed for the same place, the train station & when I got up kinda beside her I could see the little smirk on her lips everytime a guy stopped to look. This lady was an absolute doll & she knew it. About 5'10", nice & slim but not skinny, very nice curves in all the right places, deffinitley a natural blonde, with a face like an angel & a smile to match. No, she was not wearing a short short skirt or low cut blouse either but biege jeans & a light sweater. Hell she could have wore a burlap bag & she still would look hot. She was totally hot, her only problem was she knew it & she flaunted it, but then that ain't all bad. No ring on her finger that I noticed & had she lived in Tver I'd signed her up real quick.
Never have I seen Russian men act that way for any woman but this lady had us all drooling!!!
Just when you think there are no surprises left, POW, right betwixed the eyes!!!
I may be married but I am far from dead!!
Sorry to hi-jack your thread Jack. But damn she was hot!!!

[Lily]

Rvrwind,

I'd definitely love to see that woman! 

[Rvrwind]

Your startin' to worry me Lily!!
I'll probably never see her again! Which will be a shame actually!

[Mir]

First of all I have not criticized Jack and what he is doing.

My only slight criticism was when he said there are not many prostitutes in so and so clubs and here I have to say that depends on how you define one. Anyway this is a useless discusion and no point in pursuing it.

Ken C

So you don't agree that sexual act is part of a reasonable if not long term commitment?
Is is wrong to say that sex should happen when two individuals know a bit about each other and feel they now have an emotional attachment?
If this is wrong then I accept that we should be free to shag withing minutes of meeting provided both are willing.
There should be no advice to teenagres about when they should enter in a sexual relationship, they should just wait to be of legal age and then celebrate by shagging the first person who agrees.
I was always told that women would usually move to the sexual stage when they establish a little trust and emotional attachment with the man, can this happen in 10 minutes? Maybe yes but it does sound ludicrous.

[KenC]

Mir,
I will be happy to debate sexual morals with you (and why you shouldn't try to force your's on to others) but not within this thread.  Start another and quit side tracking Jack's thread.  (May I suggest "no holds barred?")
KenC

[Mir]

Ken

I am not forcing anything on anyone.

Jack

Please continue this thread and make it no holds barred

[ScottinCrimea]

Mir, it all depends on whether your definition of making love is giving something of yourself or taking something from someone else.  It's not about give and take as in, "Okay, I've given her this and bought her that so now I'm entitled to take sex in return."  Nor is it the other way around as in, "Okay, I've given him sex so now he must marry me."  It's about giving of yourself with nothing expected in return.  If you're looking for a purely sexual transaction and both understand what it is, then that's fine, but if you treat every woman as some level of protitute than that is exactly what you wil end up with.

[Gator]

Scott wrote,

if you treat every woman as some level of prostitute then that is exactly what you will end up with.

True.  Empty, loveless relationship.

[START2]

Hey Jack,
  When I go to catch up with the wife soon, we plan to spend a few days in Kyiv before we head to our Ukr. home. You know, it's odd, but when we are here(US) we seldom go dancing but when there, we love it. Probably my fault. Might be because where we are there's not much to choose from that's near, or the clubs are more exciting there, or I'm not into the Texas 2 step. I have to say that many of the clubs there are like the old disco clubs of the 70's. I like that many of the places have that big wall of mirrors and I get a kick watching the gals dance in front of the mirrors mimicking their fav. pop star. Remember the hit and video a few years ago in UKr/Ru Mussie mussie, pussie pussie? Thats what it sounded like anyway. I loved watching the gals strut to that. So how bout a recommendation on a few new places. Maybe you can post here or wherever it is on the board about places to eat etc. Where is that guys? Someone started it.
  Wherever you came up with the idea to have a local friend bird dog for you is genius. or as the boys from Guiness say" BRILLIANT". What a concept.
  Keep this thread right here. It's a trip report.
  I have to join in with Scott and say I'm so jealous you're there and I'm here. I'll be catchin up soon.

[jj]

I was there with my sweety around Easter and the start of the political demonstrations in Independence Square, and ,ahhh ,I could not pass that ice cream place without getting the best soft ice cream I have ever had either Jack.  Only all the walking and (other activities) allowed me to work off those calories.  A near by restaurant also had some good food. (not mcdonalds).   

[jj]

the other restaurant we liked nearby

[CLB1973]

Absolutely  and I consider it to be a very  bad influence on all the members of RWD and mostly it produces bad effect on men , cos they all  want to repeat this fake success in meeting millions of strange women..... for the sake of what? of entertainment but not for the sake of creating stable good family

Jazzy, the guys who sincerely want to find a good lady to start a family with are not influenced at all by this story. The stories that I find inspirational are the ones where love is found on here.

[Jazzyclassy]

Jazzy, the guys who sincerely want to find a good lady to start a family with are not influenced at all by this story. The stories that I find inspirational are the ones where love is found on here.

It is nice to know that:)

[vwrw]

Have a successful hunt, Jack!!!
Nightclubs… favorite places for gathering uncrowned “queens” and unknown “stars” for demonstration their cheerfulness, grace, arrogance and haughtiness with hope to be noticed by a source of money. No, I do not want to say there are not decent women in the nightclubs. There are decent, lovely women but they look dull, unexciting and not seductive on the background of the “queens” and the “stars”.
Nightclubs are magnificent places to cure emotional trams resulting from breakup with beloved. A lot of attention, flirtation, attempts of courtship, etc. all those flatter and bring sensation of joy, delight, thoughts about visible advantage of being single. So I have an assumption why you would prefer now to look for an appropriative woman in clubs. But an assumption is only the assumption.
It would be very interesting to know the causes which attract you, Jack in clubs, not in agency you cooperate with for chasing women.