Crime in the FSU

[Turkey]

Macman,

No insult intended, but from reading your posts I imagine you can not help but look American. 

If you wish to try to look local, wear dark clothing, especially black leather shoes.  Do not smile.  Have the same facial expression as if you have been constipated for a week and now something new is annoying you (such as your boss is demanding you work late to attempt the impossible).  The expression is not a frown nor anger nor impassive, but the look of a displeased man walking around on a gloomy day.

Even more is required because there is a demeanor that you must emulate.  Pick one of the following as a model follow:

http://www.exile.ru/field_guide.html

OMG that site is a hoot!

[ScottinCrimea]

I think asking about crime in the FSU would be similar to someone asking about crime in the US.  You're going to get a far different answer from someone living in New York or South Central Los Angeles, for example, than you would from someone living in a small town in Iowa.  I think anyone who has questions would be better served by asking about crime or places and things to avoid in a specific city or area rather than the area as a whole.

As for avoiding trouble when you walk late at night, I just stagger a little as I walk and they think I'm a native and don't bother me.

[BillyB]

I would not recommend walking outside past 9pm; especially in poorly lit areas. If it so happens that you do have to walk outside, make sure you are around people and can call for help if anything happens.
I've heard too many stories about someone getting stabbed walking outside past midnight.

A poster here named Andrew living in Estonia got hit on the head one evening in January. After he woke up from unconsciousness, he found he was bleeding from the mouth and nose and his clothes ripped apart. Lucky he didn't die because it was cold as there was snow on the ground. All this done so thieves could rob him.

[ScottinCrimea]

Thre is an endless supply of third person accounts of just about anything on any topic.

[macman]

What if you weight 250 and could knock the snot out of a gorilla?

[BillyB]

What if you weight 250 and could knock the snot out of a gorilla?

I'd suggest going on a diet.     

Thre is an endless supply of third person accounts of just about anything on any topic.

If it makes a difference, Andrew's story was told in first person but out of respect for the forum, I didn't want to post a link.

I'd say on average there is more crime in the FSU based on the stories I've heard. Considering the short amount of time most of us has spent in the FSU, many of us have been victims in one way or another and is testimonial to the fact someone their has their eye on what's in your pocket most of the time.

Most of us have elevated our guard against crime when travelling to the FSU compared to everyday life we live at home and yet still become easy victims. Just think of the elevated guard many FSU citizens live with everyday when doing something as simple as going to and from work through the gauntlet of thieves at the metro.

Maybe we could hire protection when walking around. Does anyone know if the Mafia offers reliable services?

[macman]

YO BillyB

I'd suggest going on a diet.

Too funny.  You must be south of the M/D line and have the humor I'm familiar with. . . 

Truth?  Yes, I could loose a few - still could knock. .  But, that ain't my heart.  I'm tryin' to get a feel for these boys here on the site; where are they spiritually, emotionally, intellectually and physcially.  Most of 'em got 1 or 2 of these goin' for 'em.  But hey, that don't make the PIE boys.  I'm thinkin' back to a previous post about the GREEN - NO, not the card. . .  And then again, maybe I'm thinkin' we all are all lackin' in somethin'.  But the green supercedes all - even in the home and land of the free!

do svydonia. . .

Rub's for this day. . .

Mm
 

[macman]

I'd say on average there is more crime in the FSU based on the stories I've heard.

Do you have statistics to subsantiate this?  I'll research this for us all; however, I did have a run-in with the RMafia in Eesti.  I was eye to eye with (BIG) home_boy and I asked him - MAN, have you ever played football?  He laughed, I laughed. 

They said - "AMERIKAN - hummm"

[Yulz]

As for avoiding trouble when you walk late at night, I just stagger a little as I walk and they think I'm a native and don't bother me.

Hahaha! Right on!
Don't forget the essential accessories - a bottle of booze in one hand and a cigarette in the other..

[ScottinCrimea]

I'd say on average there is more crime in the FSU based on the stories I've heard. Considering the short amount of time most of us has spent in the FSU, many of us have been victims in one way or another and is testimonial to the fact someone their has their eye on what's in your pocket most of the time.

I would like to see your evidence on this as well.  Based on my experience, I think there is less crime in Ukraine than in the US as a whole.  Certainly it will vary city by city in both places, but I think Ukraine is more homogenous than the US.

Here are some preliminary statistics that I came up with:

Murder rate:  US - 5.6/100,000      UKraine - 9.4/100,000

Rapes:          US - 3.17/100,000    Ukraine - 2.4/100,000

Total crime    US - 51/1,000          Ukraine - 11.8/1,000


Here are some numbers for all of Ukraine:


Assaults: 5,264
Car thefts: 3,164
Murders: 4,418
Murders (per capita): 0.094006 per 1,000 people
Murders with firearms: 173
Murders with firearms (per capita): 0.00368109 per 1,000 people
Rapes: 1,151
Rapes (per capita): 0.0244909 per 1,000 people
Total crimes: 553,594
Total crimes (per capita): 11.7793 per 1,000 people

Given that the population of Ukraine exceeds that of any US state by far, I would say these numbers are pretty low.  I found expecially interesting the very low rate for murders with firearms.  It appears that they have to be more creative in Ukraine and also suggests tht if you are a fast runner you have a better chance of surviving an attempt in Ukraine than in the US.

[Lily]

I really sorry for those who has been robbed in the FSU.

As for me, I became a victim only once, when I was about 16 and was strolling on the crowdy market with my wallet recklessly put in my shoulder bag. Luckily it was no much money in there. But not after that.

In fact I am a sort of control freak over my bag and pockets when I go out. Apparently picpockets fell that and don't attack me.

Thieves are very selective of their potential victims. They pick up people who seem not controlling things. An emotional, relaxed, obviously careless person is best.

I walk relatively securely everywhere in Moscow, even when it's dark, even in poorer neighboorhoods. Unlike the American one, Russian poverty is not aggressive. The only people that I afraid to meet is the Moscow policemen. I know how to interact with them and how not to let them make use of me, but it really costs me nerves.

[Mir]

A poster here named Andrew living in Estonia got hit on the head one evening in January. After he woke up from unconsciousness, he found he was bleeding from the mouth and nose and his clothes ripped apart. Lucky he didn't die because it was cold as there was snow on the ground. All this done so thieves could rob him.

If it was freezing cold and his clothes were ripped apart he had a good chance of dieing from exposure.

[macman]

Great Post ScottinCrimea: 

Apparently it would be much safer for me to hang out in UA.  These nr's are from my city. . . It's an embarrassment.  Thank God I'm only passing through.


City Population: 653,858   
 
Murder: 126
Forcible Rape: 438
Robbery: 4,297
Aggravated Assault: 5,436
Burglary: 16,900
Larceny or Theft: 30,049
Car Theft: 8,526
Arson: 287

[BillyB]

Scott,

Statistics are only as good as the people who put it together, the cops and government. We all know how the people of the FSU feel about the cops.

What is not documented in your statistics is the amount of crime performed by the police against it's citizens. Or the amount of crime the Mafia does because they bribe the police/government to get away with what they do.

As noted in Pike's trip report, he saw a guy put his hand up a girls skirt and another guy grab the nipples of another girl. Stuff like that in the FSU doesn't get reported but those guys would be reported if they lived in America and possibly convicted as a sex offender. I would say a lot of rapes in the FSU isn't reported.

In America, stores display merchandise outside unattended. Try that in the FSU.

As Lily noted, after she was robbed, she lived more secure and less relaxed. It also cost her some nerves when dealing with the cops. It's probably why a lot of people in the FSU don't smile. Personally, I like to live relaxed and not tense all the time. Unfortunately, as Lily noted, if you live relaxed, you're a target for thieves.

I remember a thread here or elsewhere where a bunch of guys mention they do not lock their doors at home when they are out. How many people in the FSU do that?

Scott, with all the media attention America gets pertaining to the crime here, it's blown out of proportion compared to most nations. Most people here do not live watching their back all the time wondering who's the next person to screw them over.

[macman]

As noted in Pike's trip report, he saw a guy put his hand up a girls skirt and another guy grab the nipples of another girl. Stuff like that in the FSU doesn't get reported but those guys would be reported if they lived in America and possibly convicted as a sex offender. I would say a lot of rapes in the FSU isn't reported.

If I remember correctly Pike's TR on this account was merely school kids drinking and playing around.  But you are probably right about "cooked" numbers and reported vs. unreported crime.

[ScottinCrimea]

Of course crime statistics are only as good as who reports the crimes and which agency prints the statistics.  You can argue about underreporting with the statistics about any country and have a valid arguement that one is underreported more than the other.  You can find justification in statistics or other reports for saying that the US is safer just as I can do the same for Ukraine.

The best that I can go on is my own personal experience with extensive living time in both places.  Where I live in Utah now, it is safer than in Ukraine.  Many in Utah are very paranoid about keeping their doors locked at all times while I don't worry about it so much, but yesterday I read an article about a large increase of teens finding unattended homes and breaking in to steal, locked doors or not, so maybe I do have to be more cautious.  When I lived anywhere in California, I didn't feel as safe as in Ukraine.  I kept my home and car locked at all times and couldn't fail to notice how the majority of houses and apartments in many areas have bars on the windows, just like Ukraine. I have never had any experience with the Mafia in Ukraine, but I have had experience with CEOs in the US ripping off shareholders for huge profits and competing businesses filing frivolous claims to harass and discourage competition.  I don't see much difference.  In Ukraine there are good cops and bad cops, just like in the US.  For the most part my experiences with the police in Ukraine have been positive.  I can also relate many stories where people in the US don't bother to call the police because, "they aren't going to do anything anyway", or where the officer has discouraged someone from making a complaint because he doesn't want to do the paperwork.

Stores in many  parts of the US can leave items unattended on the street, but their pfofit margina allows for a certain amount of loss for this.  Shoplifting is rampant in the US regardless of whether the merchandise is inside or outside.  It all just gets written off their taxes.  In Ukraine they don't have that luxury.

You claim the problem of crime is overblown in the US, but based on the statistics I'm seeing and the stories of family and friends I don't think so.  I can make the same arguement that it is overblown in Ukraine based on Western propaganda, urban myths and third person accounts getting passed down for years.  For example one guy gets robbed in Kiev and tells 10 people.  They mention this on the internet, etc. and suddenly it seems like 10 incidents, not one and on and on.  We all know someone who knows someone who knows someone.

I walk in the streets of Simferopol at all hours of day and night, as does my wife and my daughter.  Never once have any of us felt threatened.  I use the ATMs with not one problem.  I don't carry my passport and have never once been stopped or hassled by the police.  While shopkeepers may be rude at times, they have never once ovecharged me and have returned change if I accidently paid too much or pointed out when I have dropped some money.  I have never been overcharged by a taxi driver because I am a foreigner.

I have at times had someone who tried to get me into a flawed business deal or otherwise tried to take advantage of me in some other business arrangement, but I have also experienced that in the US and can deal with that quite easily.  Heck, the worst offender in that regard was someone from Australia.  I tended to give him more trust because he was a Westerner but my wife saw right through him and nipped that in the bud.

So those are my own, personal experiences in Ukraine, nothing second or third hand.  Others may have had one or several experiences that have soured them and they will of course have other opinions.

If you don't feel safe in Ukraine, either don't come or else walk around paranoid the entire time.  I know I did walking the streets of New York City and I have no desire to return there just because I didn't feel safe.

[Lily]

  It's probably why a lot of people in the FSU don't smile. 

The reason of lack of smiles is more likely in a Russian (not a Soviet) belief that a decent person should abstain from smiling without an obvious reason. Smiles belong to kids, and you man have to portray seriousness and soberness. If you want to be taken seriously, you should smile only if there is a reason to. 

I think essentially it would be something like that.

[Turkey]

The reason of lack of smiles is more likely in a Russian (not a Soviet) belief that a decent person should abstain from smiling without an obvious reason. Smiles belong to kids, and you man have to portray seriousness and soberness. If you want to be taken seriously, you should smile only if there is a reason to. 

I think essentially it would be something like that.

Aw   I like seeing people smile. I like to smile !!!  A nice smile puts people at ease and lets them know that you are friendly  

[Gator]

Turkey wrote,

A nice smile puts people at ease and lets them know that you are friendly

True, but many Russians will call your smile a "silly American grin".   I like the story about a RM doing business for the first time in America.  He entered a conference room and saw that everyone was smiling.  He thought he did something silly and he even looked to see if his trousers were unzipped.

Lilly wrote,

The reason of lack of smiles is more likely in a Russian (not a Soviet) belief that a decent person should abstain from smiling without an obvious reason. Smiles belong to kids, and you man have to portray seriousness and soberness. If you want to be taken seriously, you should smile only if there is a reason to.  

Exactly what the Cossack told me, who thought me not serious.  She chose not to leave Russia.

OTOH, the Muscovite came to America and learned that smiling is friendly and infectious, and now lists it as one of her Top 5 reasons for wanting to live in America. 

And Mexicans think Americans do not smile enough.

[Mir]

As noted in Pike's trip report, he saw a guy put his hand up a girls skirt and another guy grab the nipples of another girl. Stuff like that in the FSU doesn't get reported but those guys would be reported if they lived in America and possibly convicted as a sex offender. I would say a lot of rapes in the FSU isn't reported.

First of all it was Pike's looking at a group of drunk teenage friends.
Go to any park in UK, Ireland, France, Germany etc and you will see the same behaviour.
They will be convicted as sex offenders, hahaha where exactly do you live?

[macman]

True, but many Russians will call your smile a "silly American grin".   

The reason of lack of smiles is more likely in a Russian (not a Soviet) belief that a decent person should abstain from smiling without an obvious reason.

I found this to be true in several FSU countries. CZ, EE and AT.  I was told several times - you laugh and smile too much; yea right lady, you guys don't laugh enough - nevermind about the smiles - mostly non-existent.

And Canadians think we are too serious. . . 

Go figure!

Mm

[Daveman]

Aw   I like seeing people smile. I like to smile !!!  A nice smile puts people at ease and lets them know that you are friendly  

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! and you thought life was so simple...  I didn't know about this hypocrisy angle and was actually surprised.  Heck, I had already spent over three months in Ukraine, smiling at everyone, hanging from street lamps, all that good stuff.. but here's the Russian ladies talking about it.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=4237.0

[Simoni]

OTOH, the Muscovite came to America and learned that smiling is friendly and infectious, and now lists it as one of her Top 5 reasons for wanting to live in America. 

Two more points...in agreement...

1) When my first serious RW gf later came to the US to live with another man, she wrote me "now I understand why you are always smiling, and why I thought you were so naive.  It's just the American way..."

2)  When my wife first came to the US, she thought all the smiles and "hello's" were insincere.  Now she does the same to others, in all sincerity. 

What we have in play is a cultural difference.  You can also see this difference between NYC and a small town in Georgia.

[Lily]

Aw   I like seeing people smile. I like to smile !!!  A nice smile puts people at ease and lets them know that you are friendly  

Yes, and that's one of the reasons why AM look more attractive than RM.

[Yulz]

Yes, and that's one of the reasons why AM look more attractive than RM.

..among many other things..