Crime in the FSU

[Simoni]

Back on topic, my wife is watching a show on TV in Ukraine today that sounds like old soviet style propaganda.

It's basically saying how dangerous a place the USA is to live, and that no one is safe here.  They gave the example of the 6 year old who brought a gun to class and shot and killed a 6 year old classmate.  The "film" says it's the fault of the American government!  They encourage violence in children.  Implied.... to create the soldiers for our coming wars...

Anyway, anyone else notice that FSU girls BELIEVE what they see on TV?

I gotta get my Marina back here to the US before she goes nuts on me!  LOL

[Yulz]

Anyway, anyone else notice that FSU girls BELIEVE what they see on TV?

If they didn't, the myth of Americans' lack of intelligence (to put it lightly), naivety, hypocrisy, and who knows what else wouldn't be floating around in the FSU countries...

I've heard Putin actually toughened adoption laws after a murder case of a Russian orphan adopted by an American family had been reported. Of course, the many cases of Russian orphans finding home and loving parents in the US were not regarded as important. Blowing things out of proportion is not uncommon when an opportunity comes by to pour a bucket of dirt all over Americans.

Granted Russians discriminate against anything that's not Russian. I had the chance to browse through a Russian newspaper the other day, and it's amazing how openly critical they are of everybody who is not of the same nationality (including Ukrainians by the way), and how many sarcastic comments they throw their way. To the extent of misinterpreting the facts at times to make mother Russia look better.
I'm speculating now, but I believe this stems from the Soviet times, when the people's patriotism had to be built up during the WWII and subsequently during the Cold War.
I'm guessing the situation would be similar in Ukraine..

[Gator]

Yulz stated,

Blowing things out of proportion is not uncommon when an opportunity comes by to pour a bucket of dirt all over Americans.

All of us here have been hit with such from huge buckets dumped by some older RW (not interested in western men) who would post here a few months ago. 

Among the RW who were educated and worked during Soviet days, I am amazed at the difference in attitude between those who who have resided outside Russia and those who have never lived anywhere else.   What some from the latter group purport to believe is astonishing, as if they will never doubt anything they learned during Soviet days.  And their style of defending their position is so dogmatic and narrow minded.  I think and hope it is too much pride.

[Lily]

Among the RW who were educated and worked during Soviet days, I am amazed at the difference in attitude between those who who have resided outside Russia and those who have never lived anywhere else.   What some from the latter group purport to believe is astonishing, as if they will never doubt anything they learned during Soviet days.  And their style of defending their position is so dogmatic and narrow minded.  I think and hope it is too much pride.

Very true observation. The upbringing and educaion under totalitarian system was based heavily on dogmas. There are only right and wrong things. We shound think it right. Who believes differently, is our enemy. No individuality. Everyone should stick to the only right position. Condemn those who stick out. Welcome to the USSR 

[Turkey]

I get a feeling of 'clothesmouthedness' sometimes when I see some of the posts on different sites by Russians.  Maybe it's not really there. 

I think there have been huge leaps of progress in individual liberties in Russia but they still have a VERY long way to go.  And I suspect this has some bearing on discussions with them.

To give an example, when the Kursk sank, and the government had a public meeting, one family member expressed her feelings.  Some other lady came to her and gave a shot of a sedative!  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/894597.stm

When things like this happen (and it's better now then it used to be), it has to have an impact on what people say and do. IMO it will seep into their relationships with people and affect the way they see the world.

[chivo]

Scott,

Statistics are only as good as the people who put it together, the cops and government. We all know how the people of the FSU feel about the cops.

What is not documented in your statistics is the amount of crime performed by the police against it's citizens. Or the amount of crime the Mafia does because they bribe the police/government to get away with what they do.

As noted in Pike's trip report, he saw a guy put his hand up a girls skirt and another guy grab the nipples of another girl. Stuff like that in the FSU doesn't get reported but those guys would be reported if they lived in America and possibly convicted as a sex offender. I would say a lot of rapes in the FSU isn't reported.

In America, stores display merchandise outside unattended. Try that in the FSU.

As Lily noted, after she was robbed, she lived more secure and less relaxed. It also cost her some nerves when dealing with the cops. It's probably why a lot of people in the FSU don't smile. Personally, I like to live relaxed and not tense all the time. Unfortunately, as Lily noted, if you live relaxed, you're a target for thieves.

I remember a thread here or elsewhere where a bunch of guys mention they do not lock their doors at home when they are out. How many people in the FSU do that?

Scott, with all the media attention America gets pertaining to the crime here, it's blown out of proportion compared to most nations. Most people here do not live watching their back all the time wondering who's the next person to screw them over.

There are so many things wrong with this post I don't know where to begin.

Of course Lily was more gun shy after she was robbed, jeez. ask anyone anywhere how they feel after something terrible happens to them.

Nobody is any more worried in the FSU about getting screwed over than in America.

I'm glad that you're proud of your country (its my country too), but are you telling me none of these things (police corruption, mafia, etc.) never happens in America :noidea:. How naive can one be?

Nobody afraid of the police?  just ask your typical black or hispanic and see what response you get.

Of course no politician or policeman would ever take a bribe in the good Ole USA

how many rapes go unreported in the USA because the woman is ashamed, or knows that she will be dragged through the mud with innuendo about wanting it, being a whore, or whatever some ruthless lawyer will say to get his/her innocent defendant off.  some of us need to take off our rose colored glasses.

One of the things that always amuses me is this constant comparing of places, as if one place is more ideal than the other.

some things are more advantageous in one place, and other things are more so in other places.

I think one of the reasons many people hate Americans is because we have this unshakable thought that EVERYTHING in America is better and the rest of the world wants to/should be just like us. Sorry to burst the bubble here, but its just not true.

while I lock my door when I leave, something I also did when I lived in America, i usually leave the rest of my apt open (something i never did in LA) because I like fresh air flowing through it.

with the way they're built its almost impossible to break in unless you're spiderman.

bottom line, I live in Moscow. I can't imagine anywhere else in Russia having more crime than here. I also feel as safe as one can feel in a city the size of this. I certainly feel safer here than I do/did in Los Angeles when I walk around at night, and when I'm approached by the police.

ever been stopped by the police in the heart of LA? i have and it was scary (much, much worse than being stopped here), and all I was doing was driving my car.

no one needs to be paranoid here. the only reason some have a heightened fear of crime is not because its a fact thats there's more crime here, but from fear itself...fear of the unknown, or fear from heresay that this is such an evil place.

if you go anywhere and act like a sitting duck, someone will take advantage of it, and it doesn't matter where you are. good luck

chivo

[jb]

I think one of the reasons many people hate Americans is because we have this unshakable thought that EVERYTHING in America is better and the rest of the world wants to/should be just like us. Sorry to burst the bubble here, but its just not true.

Gee, chivo,,, I'm confused by this. 

If it were not true, at least to some extent, why then is there a river of would be immigrants clamouring to get through the gate?  As long as the tide of immigration is largely one way, then obviously, the great majority of the world does think America is better than wherever it is they came from.   If I were to see Americans leaving in droves for some other place,  I'd think hard and long about why.   Until then, I'll continue to think that while my country may not be the best, it is still a long way ahead of whoever is in second place.

[ScottinCrimea]

Excellent post, chivo!

jb, reread chivo's post again, especially noting the capitalization of the word EVERYTHING. What he is saying is dead on, that there are people who refuse to concede that maybe some thing or other is better somewhere else than in the US.

People aren't clamoring to come to the US to escape crime or because it's cheaper to live or because the people there are so much more wonderful.  They are coming to the US because there is more opportunity.  It's primarily an economic issue.  They are willing to put up with the different BS they will have to face, the struggle to learn a new language and start their life from scratch, etc. for the chance to build a more financially stable life (Note I didn't say a better life).  Believe it or not, not everyone in the world wants to emigrate to the US.

I'm certainly proud to be an American, but I shed the rose colored glasses long ago.  It's part of growing up, looking around, and seeing things for what they are, not what we wish they could be.

[chivo]

Gee, chivo,,, I'm confused by this. 

If it were not true, at least to some extent, why then is there a river of would be immigrants clamouring to get through the gate?  As long as the tide of immigration is largely one way, then obviously, the great majority of the world does think America is better than wherever it is they came from.   If I were to see Americans leaving in droves for some other place,  I'd think hard and long about why.   Until then, I'll continue to think that while my country may not be the best, it is still a long way ahead of whoever is in second place.

JB,

Don't get me wrong. I think America is a great country, always has been, always will be, no matter how much W is ruining our reputation around the world.

So yes, It is true to some extent. There's no doubt about America being better is many ways. It's also worse in ways too, and more to my point, is what we think of as great in our country necessarily great to other people or cultures?

America offers opportunities to make money, and we all need money to exist. So yes, in that way it is much better.

It, at the same time, attracts more of the "dregs" of the world which only adds to the original topic...more crime.

I can say the same about Moscow. Do you have any idea (I'm sure you do) about the number of illegals coming into Moscow from China, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, etc. not to mention Georgia, Moldova, Belarus, Armenia? Literally thousands upon thousands, especially in the last few years of its boom.

My point is, and we should all love our country, but, let's not confuse this with the thinking that "God" only blesses America as W would have you believe, and let's not believe that despite all that is good in America, thats there is no bad there. That somehow it only exists in other countries. We certainly know that this is not the case. 

All I'm pointing out is that bad things happen everywhere, not just in this evil place known as Russia. All places have problems, and America certainly isn't immune from it.

Again, I feel safer here in Moscow than I do in LA. Doesn't mean that I wont get robbed, assaulted, or killed here. It just means that it's how I feel.

I find it amusing hat people talk about other places as if it didn't existin their own country. I lived in Houston for 5 years JB. I know you know this city well. Want to take a walk through the 4th ward with me at night sometime? I know there isn't a place in Moscow where I wouldn't feel safe walking around with you...and that's all im getting at. We might live to tell about our trip through the 4th ward, but i'll be scared shitless during our walk.

I don't want this to get political. I just think that America needs to understand that as good as it might be, not everyone wants to live like us, or be like us.

I think sometimes we lose sight of this, because in our minds our life is good, and mostly it is. We think everyone should want it this good, and while money is a necessity, I do think at times we as Americans put too much value on it, almost above everything else.

its interesting in that by living outside of America I've been able to see things differently in respect to, not only how we (Americans) act toward other countries and cultures, but how those countries and cultures react to our imposing our will and lifestyle on them.

So yes, many want to get into America, but is it to do with our lifestyles, culture, and idyllic ways, or just because of the money? good luck as always.

chivo

[groovlstk]

My wife's impressions of the US after 7 months has been a mixed bag, but one of the things she unequivocally enjoys is a greater feeling of security here than in Moscow. Now, we live just outside Manhattan, on the embankment across from the World Trade Center - surely if we lived in the Bronx her feelings would be different - but we can walk the streets at 3AM without concern, things she could never do without being extremely careful in Moscow.

[Yulz]

I think one of the reasons many people hate Americans is because we have this unshakable thought that EVERYTHING in America is better and the rest of the world wants to/should be just like us. Sorry to burst the bubble here, but its just not true.

Chivo, I don't think that all Americans are naive enough to believe that "EVERYTHING in America is better". Second, a lot of things are better in the US (than in Russia, which is what I believe is being discussed here) including crime rates (which is, again, the topic of this particular discussion).
Let's take your example of locking the door on the way out. You are absolutely right in saying that living in certain areas, Americans do not have the luxury of locking their doors (let's take Harlem as an easy example). However, in Russia, people lock doors regardless of their location; the concept of not locking the doors is non-existent. Why? Perhaps, because the probability of you falling victim to a burglary is much higher in Russia than in the US?
Now, having said that, when making a comparison, we need to keep all (or at least most) things equal. We would never compare, say, Orange County to St. Petersbourg (hmm.. not sure how illustrative my example is though, considering I've never been to OC, but you get the point). Unfortunately, this is exactly the mistake that many people make, which is what gives rise to the perception that ALL of the US is much safer than ALL of Russia. But I would never say that all Americans are that subjective.
Oh, and personally, I sincerely believe that the US (and Canada to a larger extent) is a much safer country in general.. and I'm Russian.. hehe... but if security was my biggest concern in choosing where to live I would probably move to one of the Scandinavian countries

[ScottinCrimea]

If I were to make a somewhat sweeping generalization I would say that there are more violent crimes (murder, rape, armed robbery, etc) in the US and more crimes of opportunity (burglary, pickpocketing, etc) in the FSU.

[Yulz]

If I were to make a somewhat sweeping generalization I would say that there are more violent crimes (murder, rape, armed robbery, etc) in the US and more crimes of opportunity (burglary, pickpocketing, etc) in the FSU.

I did a bit of research on national stats just out of curiosity.. And based on different resources (some are reliable, some are not), it seems that Russia is far ahead of the US in the number of murder cases.. while the US is taking the lead in reported rape cases and violent thefts/roberies.. Now, I might be wrong, but I think that a significant %ge of unreported cases in Russia might be a factor here, which would help explain the difference between the two countries' stats.. The story that Lily shared with us (about her being robbed and the difficulties she went through when dealing with the police) seems to confirm this theory.. 

[ScottinCrimea]

this was discussed previously in this thread.  Scroll back a bit.  The amount of underreporting is quite large in both countries and I don't think either one has a monopoly on it.  You will find especially in the larger cities and minority area of the US that underreporting is a major issue, either because they fear the police, they don't think it will make a difference, or they are in the country illegally and fear being deported if they report.

I don't think we can really rely on any statistice to tell the true story.  That is why I have to rely on my own impressions and experiences in one small part of the FSU.

[Turkey]

JB,

Don't get me wrong. I think America is a great country, always has been, always will be, no matter how much W is ruining our reputation around the world.

So yes, It is true to some extent. There's no doubt about America being better is many ways. It's also worse in ways too, and more to my point, is what we think of as great in our country necessarily great to other people or cultures?

America offers opportunities to make money, and we all need money to exist. So yes, in that way it is much better.

It, at the same time, attracts more of the "dregs" of the world which only adds to the original topic...more crime.

[font=Verdana] Yes, dregs such as the Cuban criminals that Castro sent our way during the Muriel boat lift.  He sure was able to save a lot of money clearing out his prisons

If you think the average person is 'good' then the more the merrier.  Most of our immigrants came for economic opportunity whether due to famines or poor economic conditions in their country.  But I tend to think that these people were not the dregs but the creme.  Think about it.  What kind of person would try to lift themselves up by the bootstraps, leave everything that they have ever known, to take the risk with family in tow to a foreign land to make have the opportunity to prove themselves and provide for their loved ones?  Sounds to me like the kind of people I want to know! 

"Give me your tired, your hungry, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breath free" and I would add, your ambitious can do risk takers

[/font]

I can say the same about Moscow. Do you have any idea (I'm sure you do) about the number of illegals coming into Moscow from China, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, etc. not to mention Georgia, Moldova, Belarus, Armenia? Literally thousands upon thousands, especially in the last few years of its boom.

My point is, and we should all love our country, but, let's not confuse this with the thinking that "God" only blesses America as W would have you believe, and let's not believe that despite all that is good in America, thats there is no bad there. That somehow it only exists in other countries. We certainly know that this is not the case. 


I'm gonna let you in on a secret.  Everyone in the entire world is an American   We are a nation based on ideas; universal ideas such as that all men are created by their creator with inalienable rights, of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Everyone one deserves freedom whether here or Iraq, Darfur or N. Korea.  And while we may be a young nation in the pantheon of great powers, our ideals as represented by our constitution is the oldest. 




All I'm pointing out is that bad things happen everywhere, not just in this evil place known as Russia. All places have problems, and America certainly isn't immune from it.

Again, I feel safer here in Moscow than I do in LA. Doesn't mean that I wont get robbed, assaulted, or killed here. It just means that it's how I feel.

I find it amusing hat people talk about other places as if it didn't existin their own country. I lived in Houston for 5 years JB. I know you know this city well. Want to take a walk through the 4th ward with me at night sometime? I know there isn't a place in Moscow where I wouldn't feel safe walking around with you...and that's all im getting at. We might live to tell about our trip through the 4th ward, but i'll be scared *snip*less during our walk.

I don't want this to get political. I just think that America needs to understand that as good as it might be, not everyone wants to live like us, or be like us.

I think sometimes we lose sight of this, because in our minds our life is good, and mostly it is. We think everyone should want it this good, and while money is a necessity, I do think at times we as Americans put too much value on it, almost above everything else.

It's not the money.  It's the possibilities that are available if people are free to follow their dreams.  It's the guy who immigrated with a few useless coins from his homeland, worked meanial jobs until he saved enough money to start his own small business and provided his family a life style he couldn't have been able to from his original country.  It's the hopes that his children can have a better life than he had.  That they can have educational, employment and political opportunities that were denied to him.  It's the security that a nation of laws and not men can provide. 

We are the destination of choice for the world's diasporas!



its interesting in that by living outside of America I've been able to see things differently in respect to, not only how we (Americans) act toward other countries and cultures, but how those countries and cultures react to our imposing our will and lifestyle on them.

So yes, many want to get into America, but is it to do with our lifestyles, culture, and idyllic ways, or just because of the money? good luck as always.

chivo

I completely agree with your points chivo.  I just wanted to clarify some areas that I think are slightly different.  The main thing is that the money represents something besides 'material goods'.  It represents human ingenuity, creativity, work, effort, dedication, freedom, opportunity and understanding.  The money is the effect not the cause of those ideas.  When people are left to be free, they can do amazing things!

[ScottinCrimea]

"I'm gonna let you in on a secret.  Everyone in the entire world is an American   We are a nation based on ideas; universal ideas such as that all men are created by their creator with inalienable rights, of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Everyone one deserves freedom whether here or Iraq, Darfur or N. Korea.  And while we may be a young nation in the pantheon of great powers, our ideals as represented by our constitution is the oldest. "

Maybe someone can let the visa people in on this little secret?

[Turkey]

Ha ha!  I hear ya! 

[Yulz]

You will find especially in the larger cities and minority area of the US that underreporting is a major issue, either because they fear the police, they don't think it will make a difference, or they are in the country illegally and fear being deported if they report.

hehe.. something tells me there are more unreported cases in Russia..

[groovlstk]

Of course no politician or policeman would ever take a bribe in the good Ole USA

Last Summer I was just outside Moscow and watched a policeman standing at the side of a highway flagging down trucks, each of which he demanded a bribe from. In the 30 or so minutes I waited for a bus I saw him take dozens of bribes, completely, unabashedly in view of anyone who cared to look.

Does it happen in the US? Sure, but nowhere near the extent that it does in Russia, and it's disingenuous to suggest it does...

[BillyB]

First of all it was Pike's looking at a group of drunk teenage friends.
Go to any park in UK, Ireland, France, Germany etc and you will see the same behaviour.
They will be convicted as sex offenders, hahaha where exactly do you live?

Mir, I live in the USA. You don't believe a teenager can be convicted as a sex offender in the USA? While the FSU may not consider these crimes from teenagers and don't put them on statistics, America does. Here's the latest: A teenage boy who received consensual oral sex is now labeled as a child molester and will have to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life after he serves his 10 years in prison.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,281292,00.html

I wonder how many forum members as teenagers touch their teenaged girlfriend on her private parts or let her touch their private parts? You're all child molesters/sex offenders according to some parts of the country so turn yourselves in.

Of course Lily was more gun shy after she was robbed, jeez. ask anyone anywhere how they feel after something terrible happens to them.

The people in the FSU seem to be gun shy all the time for good reason, not just after being robbed.

I'm glad that you're proud of your country (its my country too), but are you telling me none of these things (police corruption, mafia, etc.) never happens in America . How naive can one be?

If you take the worst cop in America and the worst cop in the FSU, then there is probably little difference. But you must take the average cop and compare and if you can't see a difference, then that is unfortunate. I've watched a cop in the FSU from my apartment for thirty minutes and he must have took 20 bribes. Twenty crimes committed by a single cop in 30 minutes against citizens and of course it went unreported in the statistics Scott supplied. The sad fact is that the citizens went to the cop and immediately handed him money through a handshake. People there are conditioned to give into the crime committed by the cops without even the cops having to ask!!

Chivo, I believe every nation has an equal amount of good and bad people born just like you  but I recognize certain facts that make one nation better or worse than others. Human behavior can be modified for the better by creating a consequence with stronger and enforced laws punishing bad behavior, or a person can impose better behavior upon themself if they have a belief in God or if they feel a duty to family such as being a good role model for their children or being a good employee to maintain their job to support their family. While most of the cops in the FSU may want the job because of the potential of making money off citizens they could bribe, most cops in America do not enter that profession with the same idea. Some cops do it to serve their country or help citizens keeping their oath and some do it just because it's a job and the need to support themself or their family, but hardly any do it simply to take advantage of citizens because if they are caught, there is a consequence as America enforces it's laws and convicts people more than the FSU does which in turn gives the world the impression crime is much more abundant here.

Why are cops in America better? Better laws, laws are enforced more often, stronger religious faith and a belief in God which places added consequences to doing wrong, getting paid more, or a system that promotes recruiting good guys for the job instead of bad guys.
 

Of course no politician or policeman would ever take a bribe in the good Ole USA

Where did anybody imply that?  Do you really believe American cops and politicians take as many brides as their counterparts in the FSU?

Nobody afraid of the police?  just ask your typical black or hispanic and see what response you get.

I'm a minority and I've been pulled over by cops 8 times in the 21 years I've been driving. Half of the time I didn't get a ticket. Out of the 4 tickets I did get, two cops apologized saying their just doing their job because they knew I wasn't speeding on purpose, I was not paying attention to the speedometer. If you talk to the cop with respect without making excuses, you might find the cop a decent person.

Also cops are asked by citizens to patrol bad neighborhoods more often to clean it up for good reasons and if the neighborhood has more blacks or hispanics in it, they will be stopped by the cops more often. That is a fact. Racism is not as big a problem as the media portrays. There are more whites than blacks in America but blacks kill more blacks than the whites do. So in turn, when a black person is murdered in a poor neighborhood, a black person is more likely than a white to be convicted of the crime.

I think one of the reasons many people hate Americans is because we have this unshakable thought that EVERYTHING in America is better and the rest of the world wants to/should be just like us. Sorry to burst the bubble here, but its just not true.

Who's "we" having the unshakable thought of everything is better? Nobody here implied that.

England's Prime Minister Tony Blair's said when asked by one of his Parliament members why he believes so much in America, he said:
"A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... and how many want out."

People in England are moving to America nearly 3 to 1 over Americans moving to England. I could go on and on with other countries on who's coming or going. Which side of the fence is greener? You have the right to your own individual opinion but to think things are equal or worse here for most people compared to living in other countries is to be in self denial.

I can say the same about Moscow. Do you have any idea (I'm sure you do) about the number of illegals coming into Moscow from China, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, etc. not to mention Georgia, Moldova, Belarus, Armenia? Literally thousands upon thousands, especially in the last few years of its boom.

Trying to imply people want in Russia than out? Russia has a large amount of people who want in, I agree to that but they have a larger amount of people who want out and that is one reason their overall population is declining besides the high rate of abortion among women. A taxi driver in St. Pete told me he wants to come to America but has no family or friends here to sponsor him, then he gave me a sad look. I felt as if he wanted me to adopt him. I told him he lives in a beautiful and prosperous city compared to most of Russia and should be happy but he just shook his head and wasn't buying into my compliments of his city.

My point is, and we should all love our country, but, let's not confuse this with the thinking that "God" only blesses America as W would have you believe, and let's not believe that despite all that is good in America, thats there is no bad there.

Again you are speaking for everyone as if they think no bad happens in America. Where has somebody said that? You don't want to make this thread political yet you're putting words in W's mouth. I never got any impression and don't remember W saying God "only" blesses America.

Americans do criticize their government and politicians often in hopes things would be done right. While things are not perfect as evident of the teenager I noted earlier going to jail for 10 years over consensous oral sex from a teenage girl, but Americans, on average, try harder to get it right and strive to be better people for whatever reasons and they earned the right to be proud living and building a place where many want to come to.

[Daveman]

Yeah, that teenage oral sex thing is about the most bogus crap I've ever seen.  This went down in my county, Douglas, and there are some truly ridiculous aspects of this which boggle the mind. 

Scheduled to hit the Ga Supreme Court in October, but likely to be pushed forward to early July. It'll be interesting.

[Mir]

Scott

I will tell you a secret, the right to freedom and liberty was granted by several charters before the US constitution:

.I FIRST, We have granted to God, and by this our present Charter have confirmed, for Us and our Heirs for ever, that the Church of England shall be free, and shall have all her whole Rights and Liberties inviolable. We have granted also, and given to all the Freemen of our Realm, for Us and our Heirs for ever, these Liberties under-written, to have and to hold to them and their Heirs, of Us and our Heirs for ever.

IX. THE City of London shall have all the old Liberties and Customs which it hath been used to have. Moreover We will and grant, that all other Cities, Boroughs, Towns, and the Barons of the Five Ports, and all other Ports, shall have all their Liberties and free Customs.

XXIX. NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the Land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right (Magna Carta 1265

The question is how it was applied, afterall despite the constitution slavery flourished in the USA for 7+ scores of years and half the country fought to deny the blacks those very rights promised in the constitution.

Somehow this ambiguity in application persists to this day.

Billy

You are right, that teenage case does show what a crazy, mixed-up, hypocritical justice system operates in USA (but didn't we already know that?)

[Turkey]

Also women's suffrage.   The original scope of suffrage was basically white dudes.  HA!  But through time amendments corrected the original compromises. 

Where is that charter from?  I can only assume that it was something from a much earlier time such as when the Church of England was formed.  I was pointing to the US Constitution as the oldest which is still being used.  I am sure that there are Greek city state charters that espouse freedoms (for white dudes with property:) ) as well.

The US isn't perfect for sure, and you are right to point them out (and as much as all the America Haters (who are generally Americans btw o.O) annoy me, I think they provide valuable input).  On the whole though, the things that are good about the country outweigh the bad.

[Mir]

Turkey

It was the Magna Carta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta



Yes I agree for an US citizen US is more good then bad

[ScottinCrimea]

I think it is quite interesting how the views of those who live in the FSU such as chivo and myself differ from those who don't as it relates to crime and feeling safe in the FSU.  Kinda puts the debate in perspective.