Odessa Girls: Legalized Pimping or True Love?

[groovlstk]

groov,

 You may only have 7 months under your belt here but right from the start you went about this with the proper mindset and good instincts. I had no doubts that in the end you would be successful.

Ken

Thanks Ken,

Honestly I think luck plays a big factor in all this. I was having beers with Simoni a few weeks ago and we were comparing notes. It seemed to us that there were a lot of RWD guys in the past year or so who'd met their fiancees/wives on their very first trip. We were a bit miffed since we'd both put in 10+ trips, met dozens of girls, got raked over the coals, etc., before we met our spouses. But we also had to take into consideration something that KenC pointed out awhile back, that a lot of the newer guys have the collective wisdom of the board to rely on and don't have to stumble around blindly as we did.

Still, I wouldn't trade those experiences for anything 

[KenC]

I have always wondered the same thing too.  I always tried to stay as far away as possible from agencies.  I understand that the above video is not indicative all agencies and guys who use them, but when I see something like this well.....

philb,
I don't know if that is necessarily true.  Are they in the minority or are we?  Forums like RWD help shake out the undesirables, but they don't have to post here to go find a gal in Russia.  As much as I think this forum helps a lot of men, it really only touches a very few.  And for every good agency, how many bad ones are there?
KenC

[I/O]

As to the MOB thing, I find it distasteful when people use this term, but have come to understand that I need to get used to it and to some extent ignore it.  People are people and those of us who dare to be different will always pay some kind of price.  However does any one remember the names of Einstiens 3 close colleagues? Generally not.  Why?  Usually the names in the crowd are lost in the numbers, but the INDIVIDUAL is the one remembered.  That slot will do me if need be.

The chairman of board of directors of an associate company is in his 80's and married a Polish girl in Europe over 50 years ago.  They were with me at a recent function and talk about a "Class act".  She, in her 70's is still a stunning lady and she sure has some class.  Some smart arse across the table asked me what stage things were up to with my MOB.  I simply smiled and before I could respond, old Leo chipped in and said to this knucklehead, oh please allow me to introduce you to my MOB. The moment was golden and the silence was deafening.

To watch this pair at their age as they were the absolute stars on the dance floor, she spoke to the gathering with class, dignity and articulation almost beyond compare, to see them in the position they have earned together was quite humbling and left me thinking, if I have to put up with a few knuckleheads to have a fraction of what this pair have, the benifits will be well worth the price of every implied insult.

I/O

[KenC]

Dan,
I have thought a lot about what you posted up thread and I have to say I disagree with your take on things.  We all have to accept that some people will lump us all together with the likes of Art.  Your sincere explanation of the logical turn of events means nothing.  The common view of an western man married to a much younger RW will not be favorable.  That's life!  You have to live with it as do I.

We are all responsible for our own actions.  I knew that many would look upon my eventual marriage to Lena is an unfavorable way, but I went ahead with it any way.  I knew that Lena participating in a marriage agency is something I would rather not share with everyone I know.  Why?  Because I didn't want to be associated with guys like Art

As much as you want us all to be one happy family, there are differences of opinions.  And differences in how to go about finding a mate.  There are differences in what we think is appropriate and not appropriate.  Not all of us agree with the methods or the motivation of some members here.  You either like Turbo or you are attempting to protect him in some way.  You, as most of us, find this Art character a scumbag.  But other than the class of the delivery, the message Art told in the video is the same as Turbos.  I was struck by the similarities.  I didn't take a "low blow" at Turbo, I just stated the obvious.
KenC

[Turkey]

I've seen 2.5 documentaries on international marriages (the one I posted, the one here and one that was on tv that included the Svetlana Agency I mentioned in another thread).  Each of the three had a tour, and I gotta say that they all seemed aweful.  The tours seemed so artificial and unnatural, no one in their right minds would think that any sort of long term relationship could be the result from viewing these documentaries.

They all seemed pretty depressing as well.  I suppose that is natural when the producers try to be 'fair' by showing a success, a scam and a failure (though it really seems like 2 failures and one qualified success).  I wish I could find the Svetlana one to post here.  They had one couple that I really liked.  The wife did almost all of the talking for the couple and it really did seem like the 'dream' or 'fairy tale'.  They also had the obligatory 'cretin'. 

The clips online posted here are just really sad to watch IMO.  If I were a gal, I certainly would never consider some of these guys.  I don't know if the producers picked them for this or not but geeze it was painful watching them.

[Gator]

What is the source of this video?  Is it a documentary prepared by an independent news organization? Or is it advertising for Anastasia agency?  Considering Anastasia's reputation, it easily could be the latter.

[catzenmouse]

If it is the latter then they need a new production crew. Nothing I saw in that video would make me want to go on their tour. And to have Art the fart (I like that name!) would really turn me off to the tour and the company. Unless they did that just to entice other folks like him to pay up and go for a test drive, which was also what disgusted me about him.

Ken

[philb]

philb,
I don't know if that is necessarily true.  Are they in the minority or are we?  Forums like RWD help shake out the undesirables, but they don't have to post here to go find a gal in Russia.  As much as I think this forum helps a lot of men, it really only touches a very few.  And for every good agency, how many bad ones are there?
KenC

If I were to make a guess it would be that the weirdos/sleazeballs outnumber the normal guys and that would be a guess based on what I have seen.  As I stated, I have always kept my agency contact to a minimum (purchased a couple addresses which never amounted to anything) and so have never been on a tour. But ,from what I have seen, read, and heard from a variety of sources, tours seem to atract a disproportionate number of sleaze in both the men and the women.

And... for every decent agency I couldn't begin to guess at the number of "bad" ones.

[Admin]

Dan,
I have thought a lot about what you posted up thread and I have to say I disagree with your take on things.  We all have to accept that some people will lump us all together with the likes of Art.  Your sincere explanation of the logical turn of events means nothing.  The common view of an western man married to a much younger RW will not be favorable.  That's life!  You have to live with it as do I.

We are all responsible for our own actions.  I knew that many would look upon my eventual marriage to Lena is an unfavorable way, but I went ahead with it any way.  I knew that Lena participating in a marriage agency is something I would rather not share with everyone I know.  Why?  Because I didn't want to be associated with guys like Art

As much as you want us all to be one happy family, there are differences of opinions.  And differences in how to go about finding a mate.  There are differences in what we think is appropriate and not appropriate.  Not all of us agree with the methods or the motivation of some members here.  You either like Turbo or you are attempting to protect him in some way.  You, as most of us, find this Art character a scumbag.  But other than the class of the delivery, the message Art told in the video is the same as Turbos.  I was struck by the similarities.  I didn't take a "low blow" at Turbo, I just stated the obvious.
KenC

Ken,

The fact that you would take some time to think about what was said earlier is a high compliment. Thank you.

We may not agree - but through civil discourse, we might also find more agreement than at first thought.

For instance - I agree that there is the distinct possibility that any of us with foreign wives will find ourselves, our marriages, and our families, stigmatized. A valuable topic might be to discuss the types of stigmas and the extent of stigmas we have each faced in our courtships and marriages.

I also agree - and am sure TG would concur - that he and VWRW will face enormous skepticism and doubt for the long-term success of his marriage. I sincerely hope the skeptics are proven wrong.

And I finally agree with you that the Art character is a shameful representation of someone involved in this pursuit. It does not surprise me that Art and his shameful antics would find his way into a video, as those antics support the misinformation which some would care to spread about this pursuit.

Three separate points of agreement - not bad.

What I do not agree with - is the assertion/suggestion/innuendo that TG is, in any meaningful way, similar to the Art character portrayed in the video. That is a stretch of logic which I find irrational.

I also, personally, do not feel the "association" with any group of others who are involved with international relationships. Some may, but I do not. I look at each person individually - and believe that any thinking person would do the same. Sadly, there are many who do not. It makes little difference to me - unless it somehow imposes on me in some negative manner. I have rarely found it to be that severe.

FWIW

- Dan

[viking]

Groove

Unfortunately my friend Karen took a job up in Boston. So the chances of getting together are a bit slim. But she thought Polina was super. Not every one has a closed mind about an RW wife.

[MaxxumUSA]

I know I'll probably tick some people off here, but I wonder about someone that has to use an agency to do everything for them.  How are you supposed to be strong and survive if you have another person doing all of the work for you?  It appears as if the guys are weak or perhaps it's just laziness?  The only things I can see using an agency for is to secure a place to stay and pick me up and drop me off at the airport, other then that leave me to my own devices.  I relish the sense of adventure and exploring the unknown (unknown to me at least).

Just the views/opinions of a lowly hard headed civil servant

Bear,

There are many views I have about this.

FIRST - I don't understand the need to go to Russia/Ukraine to date many women.  This is why I went started seeking a woman abroad for marriage...  I was TIRED of dating many women.  I want a committed relationship with ONE woman.  It seems that this is not the intention of some of the men on these tours.

Second - I think in some cases there might be a very sincere gentleman that is interested in a life long relationship - However lacks "game" to compete with women in the USA.  For me I know I could meet hot women anywhere in the world.  But the guys I have seen in documentaries of this type that use the tours - I would say they lack this confidence.  So ...  my point being that this does not necessarily make them bad people.

Third - ART - the man in the video.  Wow.  What a tool.  Viewing his interview made me think he might be the type to go to south america for a sex tour.  I'd almost be surprised if he has not.  And...  men like him on these tours with one intention put us sincere men in a bad position.  I HIGHLY doubt that he is this honest to the women he meets.  And the men - with values like him - I can imagine that only in a few hours a women can NOT see through their lies.  Just a tragedy.  I would expect RVRwind would not allow a man like this to be his client.

Finally - Would I do a "tour?"  Hmm... probably not.  Like you bear - I am confident and secure in myself and would prefer to do things on my own.  But I did screw up on my first trip to russia because I did not have a backup plan.  Thank goodness everything worked out and my lady fell in love with me...  but damn...  it would suck being stuck deep in russia without knowledge of the language.

As for the personal attacks on T/G - they are not appropriate, uncalled for, and simply rude.

I have read the some of the attacks on him since he returned here - and it makes my stomach turn a bit.  Not only attacks on him but attacks in general - these attacks make me lose respect for the attacker.

In any community there are disagreements and personality conflicts.  To publicly air someone else's dirty laundry for no good benefit is wrong in my opinion.  None of us like personal attacks.

Yes - This is an Internet forum.  BUT - we are all real people with real feelings.  I remember when I was in Russia my last visit - I was SO happy because I proposed to my darling.  My Elena told me it was the happiest day in her life and I was estatic that I had made her so happy.  I posted a partial trip report for that one day.  Someone attacked me personally about my approach to finding my fiancee.  He really dug into me and quoted my past posts out of context.  Basically tried to make me look like a complete fool.  At the height of my happiness during my visit I was pissed off because of this attack.  And I did take it personally - because it was a personal attack.  I said some rude things back and he replied and I replied and ...  you get the point.  The whole thing was a waste of time and energy.

I think we can all do better than this.  Especially when unprovoked.

[Donhollio]

Curious Ken why is it you see yourself that much different from Turboguy ?

 Why because you didn't take tours and found your girl sooner ? What you fail to realise because your no longer searching is the countless stories I have heard from thee women about being hit on by seniors older than thier dad.
 The disgust they have in thinking some old fat hairy slob could possibily have anything in common with them.
  But hey , Thanks for giving us the same painted brush as those who have gone before us.

 Phil
 I whole heartly agree with you, these women get so put off by this process, sadly not enough normal guys get on the plane.

[IAmZon]

I would like to rename myself "Leagueco" rather that "Rivardco"

Is it not ALL about league!!!  Those guys in the video were jokes!  Did they not ever look in the mirror?

Of course they know the truth!  They are just acting contrary to it because short term factors that an imbalance. Nature corrects all imbalances ... these types would be called nasty divorces. 

I am happy that I saw the film.  It made me MORE comfortable with the MOB process. Ironic, is it not?  I am sooooo far different than those PIGS, no reasonable person would ever draw a correlation! 

(Interestingly, when I am with "O", I am not treated as well as when I am by myself, or when I am with an AW OF equal AGE AND BEAUTY.  It is because of her accent, and people's ignorance.  These people are PIGS too)

[groovlstk]

I am happy that I saw the film.  It made me MORE comfortable with the MOB process. Ironic, is it not?  I am sooooo far different than those PIGS, no reasonable person would ever draw a correlation! 

Riv, FWIW:
If you're going to Dnepr and you're a decent looking guy, act like a gentleman, dress fairly well, don't have any apparent hangups, and aren't dating women half your age, you will mop up... I hate to state it in such terms, but you will be treated like the Sun God.

[KenC]

Donhollio,
If you read the exchanges between Dan and I you would know that I said that guys like Art taint all of us with Russian wives.
KenC

[Gator]

Guys like Art taint all of us with Russian wives.

Now I understand your feelings.  And they are valid feelings.  It cheapens RW, yet there are some cheap RW if they climb into bed with Art.  Maybe no young RW ever did and he is just all talk. 

Your feelings evaded me when you referred to TurboGuy as RWD's own Art.  I think Pike may be a better target where you could render punishment. 

[KenC]

Now I understand your feelings.  And they are valid feelings.  It cheapens RW, yet there are some cheap RW if they climb into bed with Art.  Maybe no young RW ever did and he is just all talk. 

Your feelings evaded me when you referred to TurboGuy as RWD's own Art.  I think Pike may be a better target where you could render punishment. 

Gator,
My original passing comment that Turbo might know Art was made as a joke.  Maybe it was a bad joke done in poor taste, but a joke none the less.  (Turbo has met a lot of guys over the years and has gone on a few tours)  I have since apologized to Turbo.  When Dan took me to task for my bad joke, I justified it.  Even though there are similarities in some areas, I know that Turbo is not the same level as the slime bag Art.

As Donhollio points out, I too have similarities with Art.  As I said, guys like Art only give others ammunition to criticize any man with a RW.
KenC

[Daveman]

As I said, guys like Art only give others ammunition to criticize any man with a RW.

Anything else aside, there is simply zero logical argument against the validity of this statement.

Jealous, judgmental, close minded fools are going to pass judgment and attack all of us, as well as the motives of our ladies. Actions of the guys like Art just add fuel to the flame throwing of the ignorant or worse.

[acrzybear]

Bear,

FIRST - I don't understand the need to go to Russia/Ukraine to date many women.  This is why I went started seeking a woman abroad for marriage...  I was TIRED of dating many women.  I want a committed relationship with ONE woman.  It seems that this is not the intention of some of the men on these tours.

Although I have heard many horror stories regarding the wovo method, that is the course I am comfortable with and will stick with.  My only "back up" plans are to sight see and meet different people and learn about that country I am visiting.  If I happen to meet a lady and things go well, then so be it. As long as you have that attitude then you will have a good time.  The problem I see with a lot of guys is they put too much pressure on themselves to find a wife, just relax and be yourself (hey it's going to come out anyway if you make it to the K-1 process), be a gentleman and have a good time

Second -I think in some cases there might be a very sincere gentleman that is interested in a life long relationship - However lacks "game" to compete with women in the USA.  For me I know I could meet hot women anywhere in the world.  But the guys I have seen in documentaries of this type that use the tours - I would say they lack this confidence.  So ...  my point being that this does not necessarily make them bad people.

  The above paragraph sounds like me, except for I haven't met an American lady that doesn't have freight, er I mean baggage of some sort or another.  I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but I am honest, I don't lie and am also extremely loyal to the few people I call friends.  Is there a lady out there for a guy like me? I don't know, if I happen to find this lady I could really give a damn if she's American, Russian, Asian, Hispanic or whatever and I really care even less what others think or say.  They aren't feeding me or (you can guess the other word) me so they can kiss me   I would like to have someone to grow old with and to have children with, but if it doesn't happen I'm still going to live my life.

   Now if I had a wife and children, then they would be first and foremost and my needs and wants would take a back seat, I believe that's called commitment (which is lacking in todays world). . 

Finally - Would I do a "tour?"  Hmm... probably not.  Like you bear - I am confident and secure in myself and would prefer to do things on my own.  But I did screw up on my first trip to Russia because I did not have a backup plan.  Thank goodness everything worked out and my lady fell in love with me...  but damn...  it would suck being stuck deep in Russia without knowledge of the language.

I can't see myself doing a tour, I prefer not to run with the cattle but to explore and discover things on my own.  When I went to Odessa in 04 I made mistakes, but you know what? It added a great deal to my life experience.  I will also listen to others and store their advice and possibly use it if I see it makes sense and is appropriate for a particular situation. But I have been known to be hard headed at times and haven't always listened to good advice :selfharm: although I like to think I've gotten a little better since I've gotten older.

Being stuck deep in another country and not being able to speak the language-now that would be a challenging adventure and one that would be remembered for the rest of your life

And as far as that Art charactor goes all I can say is he appears to be the product of what happens when cousins marry

Well that's all I got to say about that (I'll get off my soapbox now)

[Shelfstuff]

Does anyone have the rest of this documentary...?  I've emailed the poster, but he's not actively using his Youtube account, and from what it seems it's a privately made piece, too.  I see there are other people looking for the rest of the documentary as well...

  Any help would be appreciated!  I'd really like to see the rest of it.