Acceptable Behaviour and Trip Reports

[Admin]

Won't be widely accepted by the men or the women?

Each Russian Women who responded on this forum has voiced their disapproval of this kind of action. Don't worry, I won't be hanging out with S.R.Ms, the mafia and sex tourists.

Just for the record - the S.R.M crap that goes on at other boards will NOT be allowed here. That is a disparaging term which has no place in civil discourse. Please do not use it again.

- Dan

[KenC]

Kuna,
What is your problem?  Did you get laid in Ukraine?  Are you jealous because Pike got more trim than you did?  It is a matter of quantity?  Would it had been OK if he only beded one woman?  Is two OK?  I disagree, it is all about casual sex.  Pike's TR is a great reference for newbies to understand the morals and the attitude that some RW have toward casual sex.  BTW, I did read the TR before I first posted here.  I wanted to see what the hub bub was and found none.
KenC

[Kuna]

I don't think the members here read Pike's TR with an open mind.  They were turned off by his style of telling a bit too much and put off by the fact that he did have sex with multiple partners to be objective.  What Pike did was compact months of dating into a few weeks.  He planned well and organized his time to meet the maximum number of women.  Because marriage was not his main goal, this is some how despicable behavior.  Sorry, but I do not see it that way at all.  It seems as though his goal was to meet many RW that he was interested in and see what happened.  Well, some sex did happen.  So what?  I guess Batman is the only person here that never had premarital sex before.  As I said before, casual (and safe sex) between two consenting adults is fine by me.
KenC

If it was casual sex.. as in an american rocking up and picking up women on buses, in nightclubs or in shops I'd have no problem... BUT any man that uses the ENGLSH LANGUAGE dating sites and the marriage sites to procure sex is misleading the women.

THAT is what I object to.

Defend it and water it down as much as you want but I think THAT is the measure of the man...  Does he have what it takes or not???  

And are these women so expendable that we as a community should accept it?

[KenC]

If it was casual sex.. as in an american rocking up and picking up women on buses, in nightclubs or in shops I'd have no problem... BUT any man that uses the ENGLSH LANGUAGE dating sites and the marriage sites to procure sex is misleading the women.

THAT is what I object to.

Defend it and water it down as much as you want but I think THAT is the measure of the man...  Does he have what it takes or not???  

And are these women so expendable that we as a community should accept it?

So your objection is that the women were not using their own language?  Pike was very specific that these women were listed on "dating sites" and not on marriage sites.  Or is it offensive to you that Pike found an expeditious way (the Net) to meet a lot of women?  Why is using English (with RW that speak English) "misleading them?"  Did he not even blow off a woman who misled her English abilities?  I don't get it.  Sorry.
KenC

[Kuna]

Kuna,
What is your problem?  Did you get laid in Ukraine?  Are you jealous because Pike got more trim than you did?  It is a matter of quantity?  Would it had been OK if he only beded one woman?  Is two OK?  I disagree, it is all about casual sex.  Pike's TR is a great reference for newbies to understand the morals and the attitude that some RW have toward casual sex.  BTW, I did read the TR before I first posted here.  I wanted to see what the hub bub was and found none.
KenC

Ken,

Bullshit... on a few counts!

Did I have sex on my trip???  That's none of your frigging business!  I don't need to gloat in a marriage focused website about my successes... I don't need the ego boost!

It's not about how many women he bedded... it's about RWD being a vehicle for men learn how to and brag about decieving women.

Before his trip it became obvious what he was about...  you obviously don't read "too good"!

Bullshit again over your claim of reading the thread.  Either your English comprehension is deplorable or you didn't read it.  "Tongue in cheek" my ass.  That part of his thread was clear to read for anyone!

I'm shocked and surprised at your defense of this type of character and feel I've either misjudged you in the past or maybe you'e having a bad day...  

I say leave the TR as a warning for the women... and as a trophy for men like Pike that think exploitation of women is OK.

[Kuna]

So your objection is that the women were not using their own language?  Pike was very specific that these women were listed on "dating sites" and not on marriage sites.  Or is it offensive to you that Pike found an expeditious way (the Net) to meet a lot of women?  Why is using English (with RW that speak English) "misleading them?"  Did he not even blow off a woman who misled her English abilities?  I don't get it.  Sorry.
KenC

Let me speak very slowly for you... Maybe your ears are the first thing to go???

A man going - from the USA to the FSU to meet women - that he meets off the Internet Marriage and Dating sites - is likely to give the impression that he is looking for a wife.

I think it's gentlemanly to manage the womens expectations as much as possible. I did... how about you?  Or did you string the women along too so you could fulfill your fantasies that you couldn't live out at home?

Based on his posts (fantasies about 16 yr old girls - which you seem to endorse, anger at the women that didn't fall for the "picture of my big house trick", accute focus on the womens bodies and physcial assets rather than normal ways to describe a person, and boasting about the ones that he did get) I would bet he actively deceived the women to get what he wanted.

We'll never know.. if the gy lied to them he'd lie to us. I bet we'd here a very different story if we heard the other side... don't you?

Ya know.. you might be a fan of this type of behaviour.  Men like you and Pike are infact a big part of the reason other men with honest intentions have such a bad name... I don't blame the women at Antidate for their views of us when I see such deplorable behaviour supported by someone who's supposed to be held in high regard here.

You've lost me in this post... Maybe you just haven't understood what was written or maybe you're justifying your own behaviour from the past but I find the whole topic disgusting.

Don't worry.. I'm getting PM's supporting my stance, and don't worry.. many people think the same way that I do.

You're entitled to be who ever you want to be... I just want to know... do YOU have any photos or videos of 16 yr old girls you'd like to share?

[Kuna]

And I think that is enough for this thread...

Now we know who is who is the zoo we can all judge for ourselves!

[Admin]

If it was casual sex.. as in an american rocking up and picking up women on buses, in nightclubs or in shops I'd have no problem... BUT any man that uses the ENGLSH LANGUAGE dating sites and the marriage sites to procure sex is misleading the women.

THAT is what I object to.

Defend it and water it down as much as you want but I think THAT is the measure of the man...  Does he have what it takes or not??? 

And are these women so expendable that we as a community should accept it?

Kuna,

I think we are all in agreement that to objectify a woman, and take advantage of her on the basis of misrepresentation is reprehensible. I have some personal experience with this in that I have sat across the table from a number of women who told me of the shenanigans and antics western guys have pulled on them. Some of those women were really broken-up by the shabby treatment they received at the hands of western men.

I also met a guy from the old PL board who spends approximately half his time in Kyiv now. He made the point to me that; "Ukraine is the only country in the world with a never-ending supply of 22-year-olds ready to jump in bed with a 45-year-old guy [him]." At last count, he told me he had bedded 6 virgins in Ukraine.

Obviously, there are some guys who travel to Ukraine for the sex - pure and simple - and they do not care a twit about who they hurt or mislead in the process. I think it is safe to say that most of us here at RWD do not fall into that category and we find those behaviors condemnable.

Having said all that - you will find EXACTLY the same behavior at ANY nightclub in ANY city in the world. Fact is - there are predators in the world who seek to take advantage of others - and a rare few are proud of it.

As we all know, there are scammers on the other side who exercise predatory behavior of a different sort. They seek to separate you (and me - and anyone else they can reach) from our hard-earned money.

The psychology involved in predatory behavior of any sort is blatant disregard for the other person's feelings, and a focus on selfish interests. The expert predators are the ones who are able to disguise their motives to that others have difficulty seeing them. Over time, the motives become apparent - but in the short-term, a successful predator is able to take advantage if he/she finds a willing victim.

Now let's focus on the "willing victim". How many times has it been stated that a guy cannot be scammed for money if he simply follows the golden rule to NEVER SEND MONEY to someone he has not met ?

Same for the women. It is as simple as "Keep your legs together until you have enough time to know the true motives of the person you have met."

Couple of simple rules which would eliminate 90+ % of the predatory behavior from either side.

So why are we not attacking these women who so freely opened their legs for Pike? Where is THEIR accountability in all this?

I have a belief - which could be entirely wrong - BUT - I believe that while some tend to objectify women - many, MANY others (I would argue MOST) tend to nearly deify them. There is a strong tendency I've noticed in a large number of the guys I've met in this pursuit - including myself, BTW - to engage in a "Knight in Shining Armor" syndrome - riding in to save the distressed damsel from her fate. While these are noble motives, I believe this is ultimately unhealthy - for both. In fact, I think we ought to hold both men and women to the same general standards - recognizing that cultural and economic disparities introduce dynamics which need consideration - but the principles and standards need to be normalized so that one gender is not more at fault (guilty) than the other - for the same behavior.

My point in this long-winded post is to say:

* Let's maintain a balance of accountability and consider men and women equals when the choice to engage in consensual sex is concerned, and...
* Let's ALL stand opposed to predatory behaviors of ANY sort.

FWIW

- Dan

[KenC]

Ken,

Bull*snip*... on a few counts!

Did I have sex on my trip???  That's none of your frigging business!  I don't need to gloat in a marriage focused website about my successes... I don't need the ego boost!

OK, that is your choice as it is Pike's choice to share or not.  I really didn't see any "bragging" about Pike's conquests.  It was a rather a matter of fact report.

It's not about how many women he bedded... it's about RWD being a vehicle for men learn how to and brag about deceiving women.

Excuse me?  Where is the deception?  Where is the bragging?  It is what it is, casual dating sex.

Before his trip it became obvious what he was about...  you obviously don't read "too good"!

Bull*snip* again over your claim of reading the thread.  Either your English comprehension is deplorable or you didn't read it.  "Tongue in cheek" my ass.  That part of his thread was clear to read for anyone!

Let's not get personal here son.  I didn't read anything from Pike except his T/R as I stated.  I took it on it's face, and I don't see too much to get upset about.

I'm shocked and surprised at your defense of this type of character and feel I've either misjudged you in the past or maybe you'e having a bad day...  

Getting personal again.  It seems as though you are the one with his panties in a bunch not me.  Disagree with my opinion as I do with yours, but don't make this personal.

I say leave the TR as a warning for the women... and as a trophy for men like Pike that think exploitation of women is OK.

Where is the exploitation?  Two consenting adults having casual sex is not exploitation.
KenC

[Gator]

While I may disagree with KenC, hats off to him for having kahonies to explain and defend his vote.   As such he is the spokesman for the silent (ever growing) minority.  At least he keeps the discussion balanced and informed. 

Please, one question for you KenC:  Do you believe Pike is a sex tourist?

Dan, the same question if you did not answer it earlier?

[KenC]

Let me speak very slowly for you... Maybe your ears are the first thing to go???

A man going - from the USA to the FSU to meet women - that he meets off the Internet Marriage and Dating sites - is likely to give the impression that he is looking for a wife.

I think it's gentlemanly to manage the womens expectations as much as possible. I did... how about you?  Or did you string the women along too so you could fulfill your fantasies that you couldn't live out at home?

Based on his posts (fantasies about 16 yr old girls - which you seem to endorse, anger at the women that didn't fall for the "picture of my big house trick", accute focus on the womens bodies and physcial assets rather than normal ways to describe a person, and boasting about the ones that he did get) I would bet he actively deceived the women to get what he wanted.

We'll never know.. if the gy lied to them he'd lie to us. I bet we'd here a very different story if we heard the other side... don't you?

Ya know.. you might be a fan of this type of behaviour.  Men like you and Pike are infact a big part of the reason other men with honest intentions have such a bad name... I don't blame the women at Antidate for their views of us when I see such deplorable behaviour supported by someone who's supposed to be held in high regard here.

You've lost me in this post... Maybe you just haven't understood what was written or maybe you're justifying your own behaviour from the past but I find the whole topic disgusting.

Don't worry.. I'm getting PM's supporting my stance, and don't worry.. many people think the same way that I do.

You're entitled to be who ever you want to be... I just want to know... do YOU have any photos or videos of 16 yr old girls you'd like to share?

Kuna,
First of all you know nothing about being a gentleman from your condensending and rude post.  Being a "gentleman" is not only for the ladies laddy.  You also need to expand your thought process to being a gentleman to other men.  I find your post above to be a personal insult to me and will not honor it with a reply.  I did think better of you than you have shown here.
KenC

[KenC]

While I may disagree with KenC, hats off to him for having kahonies to explain and defend his vote.   As such he is the spokesman for the silent (ever growing) minority.  At least he keeps the discussion balanced and informed. 

Please, one question for you KenC:  Do you believe Pike is a sex tourist?

Dan, the same question if you did not answer it earlier?

Gator,
To answer you I first have to ask your definition of "sex tourist"?
KenC

[Mir]

Same for the women. It is as simple as "Keep your legs together until you have enough time to know the true motives of the person you have met."

And IMHO this cannot be achieved within a few hours of first contact.
Those who ignore this rule might find a sincere man but are equally likely to find a Pike (who is their male counterpart)

[Admin]

Hey Guys - KenC and Kuna

You see how 'passionate' are the arguments on this topic. This is EXACTLY the reason you BOTH are asked to help out with the 'Standards' project. There are HUGE chasms which divide us on what appears to be a simple topic - but it is NOT simple.

Please do not let it become personal between you two - you BOTH are terrific contributors.

Gator - I want to see that definition also.

- Dan

[Kuna]

Son? Laddy?  I'm glad you brought up the age thing granddad.  

You've shown your true colours and that's fair enough.  Everyone should have the right to declare their stand on any topic they choose.

You're definition of gentleman is a bit girly though.  I promise you,  If I saw a man in public abusing a woman I'd not be very gentlemanly... If I had a friend that exploited women they would not longer be my friend... and I wouldn't be very gentlemanly.

I think ANY man that exploits women doesn't deserve "gentlemanly" behaviour from the men around him and I think that those who think Pike's report isn't about exploitation are probably covering something up.  How you can't see I I don't know but that's the way it is.

When your wife returns you might want to show her this thread... of course she'll support you like any good wife should but... well... she should see it.

Am I clear Old Man?

(Dan,  don't delete my references to this characters advanced age... The age thing clearly came out before this post and if this one wants to try to belittle me because I'm young and not old... he can take some reality to ponder on.)

[batman]

Definition of Sex Tourist from wikipedia.org:

Sex tourism is tourism, partially or fully for the purpose of having sex, often (but not always) with prostitutes. One term for a sex tourist is sexpat.

[Kuna]

Dan,

It's personal. Move the thread to No Holds Barred so I can let him know what I really think.



Sex tourist... A man that travels to a country for the primary reason of finding sex with women that are out of his league at home.  i.e. he will have to use dishonest means to get the sex... or use a hooker.

I'd prefer they used prostitutes but the lowest of the lie will lie to women to defile them.

Simple?

[Admin]

Son? Laddy?  I'm glad you brought up the age thing granddad.   

You've shown your true colours and that's fair enough.  Everyone should have the right to declare their stand on any topic they choose.

You're definition of gentleman is a bit girly though.  I promise you,  If I saw a man in public abusing a woman I'd not be very gentlemanly... If I had a friend that exploited women they would not longer be my friend... and I wouldn't be very gentlemanly.

I think ANY man that exploits women doesn't deserve "gentlemanly" behaviour from the men around him and I think that those who think Pike's report isn't about exploitation are probably covering something up.  How you can't see I I don't know but that's the way it is.

When your wife returns you might want to show her this thread... of course she'll support you like any good wife should but... well... she should see it.

Am I clear Old Man?

(Dan,  don't delete my references to this characters advanced age... The age thing clearly came out before this post and if this one wants to try to belittle me because I'm young and not old... he can take some reality to ponder on.)

Kuna,

You guys (you and KenC), should NOT be personalizing what has been, to this point, a VERY productive debate.

It is not always necessary to agree with someone. I see Ken's points - and yours as well - and have a few of my own.

Let's PLEASE try to get this back on track and focus on the CORE ISSUES - not the personalities (or ages) of the people involved.

OK?

- Dan

[Gator]

KenC,

Definition of sex tourist?

Did you not tell the joke of yes to sleep for one million and no for $5.  The definition is not black and white; there is a continuum.  In fact, some such as Holy Toledo Batman may consider me a sex tourist.

In my book Pike is a sex tourist:  no interest in marrying but dangling (to some women) the marriage card implicitly with photos of his house, etc.  

During your casual sex days, you represented yourself before your dates the way you normally live (good car, country club, etc.).  But did you need to show them family oriented photos such as you as a little tyke with your parents?  Of course not.  The women just wanted a little attention from a charming man.  

Some of Pike's women fell in that category and I discussed that earlier.  Some for sure were a little desperate.  I have been there and felt the desperation and walked away.  Why?  Because it is deception whether blatant or subtle.  Some of us can sleep at night after deceiving a desperate woman.  Others can not.  Besides, I do not want a desperate woman.  I want a woman who wants me (been difficult - maybe I should lower my goals).

 

[Admin]

Dan,

It's personal. Move the thread to No Holds Barred so I can let him know what I really think.



Sex tourist... A man that travels to a country for the primary reason of finding sex with women that are out of his league at home.  i.e. he will have to use dishonest means to get the sex... or use a hooker.

I'd prefer they used prostitutes but the lowest of the lie will lie to women to defile them.

Simple?

Kuna,

Two thoughts:

The thread has been productive (till now) - and needs to remain intact (maybe with some minor edits). If you and Ken want to take it to NHB, go right ahead - but for my part, I will feel badly if you do. Let's stop the personalized insults here.

As for the defiling of women - as I mentioned earlier, it is impossible to defile a woman if she does not wish to be defiled (obviously, forcible rape not considered).

- Dan

[Gator]

it is impossible to defile a woman if she does not wish to be defiled

If so, it follows that it is impossible to scam a man if he does not wish to be scammed.  Yes, I know, do not send the money aks as keep your knees together.  It happens because the scammers and sex tourists have the same mojo.  Have you notice that they avoid each other  - they can spot deception.

Admittedly Pike's mojo was not near as concerted as that of a scammer such as the  one working the Phantom

[Kuna]

Dan,

I have a problem with men that deceive to get root!  It's a sign of the man.  I don't like it at home and I don't like it when I travel.

Those men here with any credibility would act as Gator has said above.  Those who are sad and desperate AND predatory will take whatever meat he can get... Why?  Because he can't get it in any other way.

When I've been in FSU I've been disgusted with some of the men I've met (not just because some looked like second rate citizens... but some were like Pike boasting about his dirty little conquests) and I honestly understand why the stigma exists over this pursuit.  I can't change that but when I see someone defending the type of behaviour I can't help but wonder who they are and what they really believe in.

Your comment about "White Knights" in your previous post is a good one.  Are we trying to save the world here?  No, I don't think so...  Initially I was trying to genuinely gauge the quality of the men in this forum.  Of course there is a wide spread of opinions and that's good...  but some of the defenses are feable.  I don't believe the poll means a large number of men support Pike-type behaviour BUT I do think that we have the right to know where our community stands on such topics.

If we're so accepting of Pike's behaviour (like Ken is) why do we actually have rules about not promoting sex tourism and prostitution? Let's go for it... Where the photos of the 16 yr old children we find so enticing?

I think the use of a prostitute is a better path for a loser who wants sex with the type of woman he can't get at home.. at least there's a fair transaction there...  For anyone to assert that Pike didn't deceive can only be a result of naivety or guilt.

[KenC]

Kuna,

Two thoughts:

The thread has been productive (till now) - and needs to remain intact (maybe with some minor edits). If you and Ken want to take it to NHB, go right ahead - but for my part, I will feel badly if you do. Let's stop the personalized insults here.

As for the defiling of women - as I mentioned earlier, it is impossible to defile a woman if she does not wish to be defiled (obviously, forcible rape not considered).

- Dan

Dan,
Don't include me in your wide paint brush here.  I may have used the terms "son" and "laddy" in reference to Kuna, but those are usually terms of endearment not personal attacks as he seems intent to use. I used those references because of his less than mature reaction here. Please reread the posts and tell me where I didn't just attack the ideas and not the man.  At the same time Kuna has called me some rather nasty names and has alluded to me being a sex tourist and even hinted of being a pedophile.  I guess one has to resort to mud slinging when you don't have the answers to the legitimate questions asked.  
KenC

[KenC]

Dan,

I have a problem with men that deceive to get root!  It's a sign of the man.  I don't like it at home and I don't like it when I travel.

Those men here with any credibility would act as Gator has said above.  Those who are sad and desperate AND predatory will take whatever meat he can get... Why?  Because he can't get it in any other way.

When I've been in FSU I've been disgusted with some of the men I've met (not just because some looked like second rate citizens... but some were like Pike boasting about his dirty little conquests) and I honestly understand why the stigma exists over this pursuit.  I can't change that but when I see someone defending the type of behaviour I can't help but wonder who they are and what they really believe in.

Your comment about "White Knights" in your previous post is a good one.  Are we trying to save the world here?  No, I don't think so...  Initially I was trying to genuinely gauge the quality of the men in this forum.  Of course there is a wide spread of opinions and that's good...  but some of the defenses are feable.  I don't believe the poll means a large number of men support Pike-type behaviour BUT I do think that we have the right to know where our community stands on such topics.

If we're so accepting of Pike's behaviour (like Ken is) why do we actually have rules about not promoting sex tourism and prostitution? Let's go for it... Where the photos of the 16 yr old children we find so enticing?

I think the use of a prostitute is a better path for a loser who wants sex with the type of woman he can't get at home.. at least there's a fair transaction there...  For anyone to assert that Pike didn't deceive can only be a result of naivety or guilt.

Kuna.
Let's try this again.  Where is the deception?  The women were all listed on a dating site and not a marriage site.  Why is Pike a loser and you are not?  Because of your intent to marry?  Why is "dating" not allowed in the fsu?  In the past you even admitted to bedding more than your share of Aussie women.  Why are RW any different?  There is a fine line between showing a woman who you are and luring them with your financial where with all.  So a man should only date women in his own financial status?  Please quit acting so childish and just discuss this like a man.
KenC

[KenC]

KenC,

Definition of sex tourist?

Did you not tell the joke of yes to sleep for one million and no for $5.  The definition is not black and white; there is a continuum.  In fact, some such as Holy Toledo Batman may consider me a sex tourist.

In my book Pike is a sex tourist:  no interest in marrying but dangling (to some women) the marriage card implicitly with photos of his house, etc.  

During your casual sex days, you represented yourself before your dates the way you normally live (good car, country club, etc.).  But did you need to show them family oriented photos such as you as a little tyke with your parents?  Of course not.  The women just wanted a little attention from a charming man.  

Some of Pike's women fell in that category and I discussed that earlier.  Some for sure were a little desperate.  I have been there and felt the desperation and walked away.  Why? because it is deception whether blatant or subtle. some of us can sleep at night after deceiving a desperate woman. others can not. besides, I do not want a desperate woman.  I want a woman who wants me (been difficult - maybe I should lower my goals).

Gator,
I have read your replies and other here and it appears to me that the hinge point of all of your arguments are based on the fact that Pike was not wife shopping.  I find this VERY ironic because most of the world would look at the "wife shoppers" as the strange ones, not the guy looking for dates in a foreign country.  What is so wrong with going to Russia to meet some women and see what happens?

When I went to meet Lena, I was not on a wife hunting trip.  I didn't see a big future in "us" as a couple, but I still wanted to meet her.  It was just like meeting AW here in the way I went about it.  I didn't have marriage as a motivating factor, but rather a sense of exploration of the unknown.  Why is it now "predatory" to go meet women that interest you?  Why is it despicable for Pike to meet and bed women that are fluent in English and not promised anything long term?

How two people go about romancing each other is between them.  There is no right or wrong way, just "their" way.  As Dan pointed out, the women were also showing their best sides to Pike.  He may have shown them photos of his house and they showed their sexual talents.  So what?  Remember the old saying, Sex is the price women pay for marriage and marriage is the price men pay for sex?"  I am not ready to say that Pike is a sex tourist at all.  He just has yet to meet the woman of his dreams.  I didn't go to Russia to find a wife, but that is exactly how it turned out.
KenC