Acceptable Behaviour and Trip Reports

[Gator]

KenC,

I do not understand the term "dating sites".  Never seen such.  You have not either I presume.  maybe someone will enlighten us.

What if Pike had used only escort services and wrote the same style of report?  Would you wish for it to remain at RWD forever?

You said,
How two people go about romancing each other is between them.

This is not my definition of romancing.  Some other gerund, but not romancing.  If romancing, where were the flowers?

You do have the ability to grind it out.  Did you play fullback in high school football?

[KenC]

KenC,

I do not understand the term "dating sites".  Never seen such.  You have not either I presume.  maybe someone will enlighten us.

There are millions of dating sites on the Net.  More dating sites than "marriage" sites I would guess.  I always thought that there were two types of daters: #1 Dates others in seeking a mate, #2 Dates for sport only with no intentions of ever marrying.  I guess I was always a #1, but I said many many times that I would never marry again unless I found the perfect woman.  I really think I did.

When I was in Tver, I met other women and was very uncomfortable with it.  So much so, that I stayed in my flat rather than mislead any of the women from the agency into thinking I was interested in marrying them.

Pike was very explicit in the fact that he was open to getting married some time, but was not wife shopping.  As long as he was clear in his intentions, (which we have no evidence to the contrary) he commited no foul in my mind.

What if Pike had used only escort services and wrote the same style of report?  Would you wish for it to remain at RWD forever?

No, then he would be a whoremonger.

You said,
How two people go about romancing each other is between them.

This is not my definition of romancing.  Some other gerund, but not romancing.  If romancing, where were the flowers?

I agree that "romancing" may not be the correct word, but there were mentions of small gifts, dinners and entertainment.  There was plenty of seeing the sights and shopping and cooking and such.  All very acceptable dating practices.

I think it is very funny that these women are being portrayed by some as "victims" of a sex predator.  Who was stalking who?  Was the woman that left the door open and later asked Pike if he liked sex, a victim?  Or a predator?  How about the married woman that lied to being single?  Victim?  Or predator?  And let us not forget that these women were not "young and dumb" either.  The youngest was 37.

You do have the ability to grind it out.  Did you play fullback in high school football?

And noseguard too!
KenC

[Turboguy]

Pike was very explicit in the fact that he was open to getting married some time, but was not wife shopping.  As long as he was clear in his intentions, (which we have no evidence to the contrary) he committed no foul in my mind.
KenC

Actually don't I remember some young dude from Aussie land who was going to make a trip to Ukraine to search out his family heritage and while he was there there maybe meet a few gals from Ukraine?   I think he accomplished more than researching his family heritage and Pike could end up doing the same.

We are here having the same discussion with VWRW siding with Ken and me about half way in between.   Her point, and I can see the validity of it, is that you have a man who wants to have sex meeting a woman who wants to have sex and if they have sex it is their own business and they would likely both come away happy.   Yes, if he is using marriage sites and promising marriage and telling out and out lies to get what he wants that is a bad thing but it sounds like he is doing no worse than an AM who meets and AW on Yahoo or Match and gets laid. 

As far as if it fits what our members want in our community that is another story.

[KenC]

Definition of Sex Tourist from wikipedia.org:

Sex tourism is tourism, partially or fully for the purpose of having sex, often (but not always) with prostitutes. One term for a sex tourist is sexpat.

By this definition, are we not ALL sex tourists?  Doesn't every man have some expectation of sex when he travels to the other side of the world to meet a woman?  Please tell me who here went to the fsu and didn't have sexual expectations?
KenC

[Gator]

Well fullback, you have worn me out.

The spirit of the discussion has distracted me from my position posted much earlier.

Case No. 1.  Sex is sex, and many women enjoy sex, and maybe all they wanted was some attention, a fine dinner, some physical pleasure, and the challenge of trying to net this man.  Does sleeping with Pike make them slutty?  I do not know all the details, and in some cases the answer is most likely “yes”.   And in other cases, if he was a gentleman and charming, what is the problem as long as safe sex is practiced.

I guess No. 1 is KenC's position.

Case No. 2.   Some women may have slept with him out of desperation, encouraged by his false words.  If so, that is sad.  It happens in the FSU, and I must assume that such happened with one or more women if Pike does not protest such a charge.  That would make Pike a low-life (well, I guess the teenager episode already had him living among those little crawly critters we see when we pick up a large rock).

I guess No. 2 is Kuna's position.

Who knows the split between the two?  Only Pike.

Now to the issue: sans report or not.  

In “sans report” mode, questions go unanswered.  Without answers and without elaboration, one can assume "grey" is "black".  

Or is it white as assumed by others.

[Gator]

I hope we can agree to one point:  the barrage of attacks partly explains why so many people are reluctant to post trip reports, or post anything.

I have said enough.  It would be glorious if someone would summarize the positions. 

I have a chore, and then I need to write deceptive letters to several RW to convince them to jump into my bed.  I still need Pike's computer program for scheduling my dates so that I have a different woman arriving at my place every night for her third date.  Very tricky.  Pike is a genius.  And very silent.

[batman]

By this definition, are we not ALL sex tourists?  Doesn't every man have some expectation of sex when he travels to the other side of the world to meet a woman?  Please tell me who here went to the fsu and didn't have sexual expectations?
KenC

maybe, just maybe 'partially' is refering to tourism? as in work/tourism

I guess you'll read it anyway you like.

I'll let yet you work out the 'purpose' bit. 

[SANDRO43]

I am a newbie, technically speaking, since I've never been to the FSU nor dated a FSUW (no, wait, not quite true, when I was 18 I dated a lovely 17 y.o. Russian girl for about a week, she was studying in Switzerland and was over here to spend her Xmas holidays with a mutual friend ).

So here are a few considerations from the perspective of a newbie, who some seem to consider an endangered species in need of protection:

- Did I read Pike's T/R ? Yes.
- Why ? I found it interesting in that it appeared to depict an aspect of FSUW mentality refreshingly different from the usual MOB agency hype.
- Was it truthful and accurate, or just bragging ? Cannot really say, though it SOUNDED mostly a report of a direct personal experience.
- Am I going to be influenced by that info and follow in his footsteps ? Unlikely, though I think it always preferable to have additional intelligence to consider (Si visa pacem, para bellum ).
- Was Pike a sex tourist ? Although sex and not marriage was his object, maybe the definition does not apply completely in his case, considering the age and consent of his dates. A compulsive dater, maybe ?
- Was he deceitful to his "victims" ? It didn't appear so to me, if he reported correctly how he approached them through websites prior to his meetings. And the distinction beween marriage and dating sites is rather blurred, some of both also having "casual encounter", "short-term relationship" and similar non-marriage-oriented expressions among the profile choices available, which Pike may have targeted in his quest. And I don't know how many photos of his house he had in his portfolio, either, as opposed to other types : construing that showing them was misleading matrimonial bait, sounds far-fetched. 
- Were there really any "victims" ? Again, It didn't appear so to me. As others pointed out, interest in casual sex is not really a monopoly of the male gender.
- Should this type of T/R be allowed at RWD ? I think the membership here is mature enough, or should be, to either read it or ignore it, depending on personal tastes, interests, curiosity, whatever. However, since Pike's T/R appeared repetitious after a few pages, I would not be much interested in reading many others in the same vein.
- Does it reflect badly on RWD ? If all or most T/Rs were like Pike's, possibly. Considering the hullaballoo it created, I doubt many others may be tempted to follow suit .

The gap between pros and cons appears to be slowly narrowing, anyway .

[ScottinCrimea]

I almost get the sense that KenC is living vicariously through this guy.  He doesn't seem repulsed by this, but instead paints it as perfectly normal and acceptable behavior, as casual dating and sex between two consenting adults with everything up front because he met them on a "dating" site, and not a "marriage" site.  KenC, how do you know which site this was other than Pikes's word?  It's been awhile, but I recall that even "dating" sites allowed you to select on your profile if you were looking for a penpal, dating only, a longterm relationship, marriage, etc.  How did Pike list himself and how were the women listed that he chose?  I think we all know the answers.

I was quite interested to see you quote this old saying: "Remember the old saying, Sex is the price women pay for marriage and marriage is the price men pay for sex?" "  Does your wife know that this is your philosophy?

I was equally surprised to read Dan's simplification of the issue saying that "you can't have sex if the woman doesn't open her legs"  So does that apply to children abused by adults?  Pedophiles prey on those weaker than themselves.  Men prey on teens promising to take them away from their difficult home life or shower them with gifts, or take advantage of their need to feel loved.  Pike carefully selected through prior e-mails those must vulnerable to what he wanted and played on those vulnerabilities.  He selected those that he was most likely to score with and most likely to be turned on by.  Juat because someone is older doesn't necessarily mean that they are less vulnerable. Just listen to his comments about "Sweet Sugar".  She was too chubby for his tastes but he enjoyed the sex and knew he could get it again, so he debated whether to have her back as a sure thing or take the chance on someone he was more attracted to physically.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree that this is all normal dating behavior.  Pike is a predator and a sex tourist, period!  If this forum is so open as to embrace this behavior and these views and see them as normal, I'm in the wrong place.  I certainly would be embarassed if my wife were to read the report and see that I had condoned it or simply refused to comment.

[ecr844]

Hello Everyone,


  I was wondering if perhaps I might be able to interject a few questions  and perhaps make a statement or two here? (Since this is a forum, we'll just call that a rhetorical sort of question....errr..statement)

1.)  I've noticed as some others have commented previously that Mr. "Pike," seems to have no comment or clarification on this thread or TR. Have we given any thought that perhaps he knew he was stirring the pot with some of the more vocal personalities here and was merely looking for an internet version of the coloseum?

2.) It has been alluded to by a few posters here that historically this isn't the first but one of many TR's of this genre and content this individual has posted here or elsewhere. Have any of us given thought that the 13 pages of this is stroking his ego if via nothing more than attention?

3.) We are strting to get to the point of 'reading into' events and circumstances which in some instances of "pike's" writing have been devoid of details or sometimes self admittedly changed for any number of reasons. How can we say with any kind of objectivity what was 'promised or promoted' to accomplish "pikes" goals and experiences when we have only one side of the story? Taking that a step further when 2 sides of another issue were presented in this forum here by "correg & his RW' ( I forget her screen name off the top of my head) did just that they were met with a chorus of posts asking them to keep it amongst themselves. Where's the middle ground? Would this be a different situation with a different set of rules and expected responses??

4.) We all have a differnet set of morals, opinions and basic standards of acceptable behavior. these have been both volunatrily and involuntarily created by both intrinsic and extrinsic factors. Thus there will always be some points of dissention between a diverse group of people sharing the loosest of connections. Why would you expect anything differenthere?

5.) The points on both side have been legitimate, and spirited, with some great points by many of the involved. That being said shouldn't we all acknowledge the following? This is a privately owned and although liberally and fairly run forum, but still a private enterprise with a few people at the helm. Only they have the ability to allow or dictate the content difinatevly at the end of the day.

6.) Absent of an invitation (grossly illegal, highly immoral or predatory unacceptable behavior) to do so, why would anyone sharing their travel experiences expect to be attacked or subjected  to intensive negative scrutiny?

     As a personal note, one of the reasons  try to be careful about what personal details I post is because of the horror stories I have heard from veterans about getting stalked, threatening e-mails, attacked and libeled, their wife or fiancee contacted, threatened, etc... To think that after being witness to such reprehensabile behavior (Stealing pics, etc..) that this would encourage anyone to be 100% forthcoming and open with all of their personal life details and experiences is ludicrous and ill advised is it not?

Just somethings to consider,
ECR844

[BillyB]

I skimmed through some of Pike's old posts and he did say he used a pay per month site and another post a while back said he knows of freepersonals and Luckylovers.net.

So for all that's interested and for argument sake, Luckylovers is probably what he used. Women/men there list why they're there such as looking for Marriage, Long-term relationship, short term relationship, Fun, Traveling, Penpal, Friendship, Flirt, and Erotic Chat.

There are women that chose erotic chat, short term relationship and fun. In Russia and Ukraine there are 7138 women listed on Lucky lovers who have chosen at least one or more of those categories which could imply they are "looking for" or "open to" fast/physical action with minimum emotional attachment. After a quick study of the site and people there, I would say it falls halfway between freepersonals and adultfriendfinder.

I agree Pike was looking to get sex on this trip but for best results, it would not be in his best interest to target women looking for penpal relationships and try to deceive them into bed. There are so many women at luckylovers similar to Pike that he does not need to deceive to find what he's looking for. It's possible that his profile says he's open to fun, short term relationship, erotic chat and marriage. And with a combination like that, listed by a man, strictly marriage minded girls will proceed with caution or most likely wouldn't proceed at all.

Someone would have to try real hard to convince me that Pike deceived women and only listed marriage and/or long term relationship on his profile. One woman who jumps in bed with a man within hours may very well be a decent marriage minded girl as some would say but what are the chances of many women doing that? very slim to none. I say Pike advertised who he is to get that kind of lineup on a WMVM trip.

ERC844, it doesn't matter to me if Pike is making this story up or stroking his ego among other things, I'm enjoying this debate and find value in this thread. The important thing is to debate and not let it get personal.

[ecr844]

Billy B,


   I agree that even though the discussion has evolved that the debate, dissention and discussion are all markers on the road towards postive change and progress here.

[KenC]

I almost get the sense that KenC is living vicariously through this guy.

Why on earth would you think that?  I am happily married and certainly have no envy of the single guys in any way.  I already hit the jackpot Dude!
  

He doesn't seem repulsed by this, but instead paints it as perfectly normal and acceptable behavior, as casual dating and sex between two consenting adults with everything up front because he met them on a "dating" site, and not a "marriage" site

.
Well, not exactly, but close to what I believe.
  

KenC, how do you know which site this was other than Pikes's word?  It's been awhile, but I recall that even "dating" sites allowed you to select on your profile if you were looking for a penpal, dating only, a longterm relationship, marriage, etc.  How did Pike list himself and how were the women listed that he chose?  I think we all know the answers.

No, Scott, you do not know the answers at all.  All we can judge Pike by is what he wrote, to assume more can only make an ass of you and me.

I was quite interested to see you quote this old saying: "Remember the old saying, Sex is the price women pay for marriage and marriage is the price men pay for sex?" "  Does your wife know that this is your philosophy?

  Of course she has heard that saying.  I am sure that Lena would not be put out by Pike's thread.  She has shared quite a few stories about the women at the agency and to be truthful, she holds the women in lower disregard than the AM.  Most of the AM were naive, but the women were the real predators, not the men.

I was equally surprised to read Dan's simplification of the issue saying that "you can't have sex if the woman doesn't open her legs"  So does that apply to children abused by adults?  Pedophiles prey on those weaker than themselves.  Men prey on teens promising to take them away from their difficult home life or shower them with gifts, or take advantage of their need to feel loved.

 
That is a terrible and unfair analogy.  You should be ashamed of yourself for writing it.

Pike carefully selected through prior e-mails those must vulnerable to what he wanted and played on those vulnerabilities.  He selected those that he was most likely to score with and most likely to be turned on by. Juat because someone is older doesn't necessarily mean that they are less vulnerable.

More assumptions and innuendos.  Base it on the facts we have please.
 

Just listen to his comments about "Sweet Sugar".  She was too chubby for his tastes but he enjoyed the sex and knew he could get it again, so he debated whether to have her back as a sure thing or take the chance on someone he was more attracted to physically.

I actually thought Pike did a very good job in describing the women he met.  How many of us would say something like that in our minds.  Shame on poor Pike for saying it aloud!

I'm sorry, but I don't agree that this is all normal dating behavior.

 
I think it is very normal though a bit compacted time wise.

Pike is a predator and a sex tourist, period!  If this forum is so open as to embrace this behavior and these views and see them as normal, I'm in the wrong place.  I certainly would be embarassed if my wife were to read the report and see that I had condoned it or simply refused to comment.

Which behavior is that?  To share a trip report to the fsu?  You and your buddies are certainly making it Crystal clear that no one should share anything more here than "I went to Russia and then I came back!"  The view must be a lot more clear up in that ivory tower you and Kuna sit in.  I just don't see it.
KenC

[Simoni]

I was equally surprised to read Dan's simplification of the issue saying that "you can't have sex if the woman doesn't open her legs"  So does that apply to children abused by adults?  

That is an absurd and insulting point. You owe Dan and the readers an apology, Scott.

[Dan C.]

From Gator

the barrage of attacks partly explains why so many people are reluctant to post trip reports, or post anything.

  As for me, I am going to Kiev next month, and have considered writing a trip report, but wonder if it is worth it.  I would not put it in the sans responses section, as I am not Pike, and don't want the guilt by association.  So that leaves it open to comments, which at times can be quite scathing.  Who wants that?   

[ScottinCrimea]

That is an absurd and insulting point. You owe Dan and the readers an apology, Scott.

Simoni, perhaps this was a bit extreme for some.  If so, I apologize.  The point that I wanted to make is that there is not an age limit on vulnerability and that anyone who takes advantage of someone's vulnerability in any form for selfish reasons is a predator.  I don't see my comments as assuming so much as reading between the lines.  If you look at his report, he played each woman differently, depending on her vulnerabilities and what he felt would be most likely to get her into bed.

Perhaps my reaction is due to my experiences as a physician and seeing the various forms of abuse that occur quite too frequently, be it physical, verbal, emotional or paychological and the aftermath of this abuse.  It also may have something to do with the fact that I have 5 daughters, including my wife's daughter who is 16, the same age as the one that Pike was getting his jollies from.  To have an old loser like him having such thoughts about her just makes me ill.

KenC, do you have any daughters?

[Jazzyclassy]

        KenC, do you have any daughters?

         

I am also very interested if Ken C has daughters! If he had probably he would never post the things he did....

[KenC]

KenC, do you have any daughters?

Yes, I have a daughter and I was not offended by Pike's report about his encounter with the 16 yo girl in Russia.  Again, Pike did not do anything inappropriate with her.  He simply made an observation.  (Not like the recent track coach of 40 who married his 16 yo student here in America)
KenC

[Daveman]

Definition of Sex Tourist from wikipedia.org:

Sex tourism is tourism, partially or fully for the purpose of having sex, often (but not always) with prostitutes. One term for a sex tourist is sexpat.

Well, count me in among the sex tourist ranks.  Three trips, as a tourist, with three different women, and each time I had a partial purpose of having sex with the woman at the time.  The remainder of my motives are irrelevant as by that limited definition, I would be classified as a sex tourist.

I still haven't read any more of the trip report so I haven't voted.  But from what I remember, the first ladies basically told him to blow himself, and one who did have sex with him had her own orgasm and fled the scene (probably in gleeful laughter at outfoxing the fox).  I guess from the remarkable debate here that many other events took place. For some reason I simply prefer to remain in ignorance.

The quoted descriptions of the young teens playing with each other was over the top for my values.  THAT has no place here as far as I am concerned.  However, I still don't buy the 'exploitation' of adult women angle as any one of them could have done exactly like the first two and said "no" (unless of course, he's a Jedi, or a Sith, using well honed mind control techniques).  Even if he was speaking about marriage to them (which would be a deception at such an early stage), why in the hell would a grown woman believe a man is going to marry her, or make a commitment in a few hours?  Unless there is something to Gator's 'desperation' angle, it simply doesn't make sense to me, and even then it's still seems in the realm of bizarre.  I guess I'll actually have to read the damn thing to see where all of this is coming from...


BTW Mir, you're now tied for Heavyweight Ignore Champion.  I'm 2 back... where's Rocky and Alfie??.. I need a couple of quick sympathy ignores to get back into this race...

[CaptB]

To Admin,

When I started poking around for information about travel to the FSU, in 1999, my original intent was not to eek a partner in the FSU. Then I came across the RWG......at that time about 350 members. There was no controversy.....nothing "vague" about the mission of the forum. THE FORUM WAS STARTED TO HELP MEN FIND A LIFE PARTNER IN THE FSU.......plain and simple. Dan you addressed my "interesting points" on page 7 of this thread.....but still did not answer my question: "What is the (basic) mission of this website?" You expressed ideas like "inclussiveness"....flexibility.......ever evolving etc........but failed to state the base purpose of this forum. Yes.....on the RWG there was (in the beginning...at least) evolving changes......but were always and offshoot of the original purpose. Marriage is part of the natural progression. Immigration issues, travel, family visitation.......and yes....even divorce IMHO are relevant issues.

You have stated we appear to be separated by "chasms" in our opinions on many issues. Debate becomes very difficult.......if simple questions like "What is the root purpose of this board?" cannot be answered......by the originator(s) of the forum.

I think the original intent of this forum is "Men seeking a "life partner" in the FSU". If this is not correct........then I would like to be informed.

Although Ken C. brings up the point that he may stumble accross finding a partner in the FSU (good for him if he does).......... he stated up-front......he was making business trips only.....and was not interested in finding a wife. I think a forum on business trips and dating in the FSU......would be more suitable to his purposes. And yes I do
remember Matt on the RWG......but he also stated he was "looking for a partner".........this gentleman was not. I do see a difference in dating with the intent of finding a partner......and dating with "no" intent on finding a partner.

I have a thicker skin than my friend jb. I am neither sickened, shocked or particularly upset by the trip report. To me it is rather common.....for what it is. I just don't think it is appropriate.......because it is not relevant to the basic mission of the forum.


Capt B

[ScottinCrimea]

CaptB, well said!  I am on this forum for a couple of reasons.  First is to help those who are seeking their life partner.  Second is to get advice and insight from those who are farther along in the journey than me.  I am not here to help some American loser get laid in the FSU nor to learn how to screw as many women as possible in the shortest amount of time.

Daveman, I think you are playing a bit loose with the definitions.  Every man considers the issue of sex when he travels to the FSU in search of a life partner.  This is normal male mentality.  But to make sex the primary goal of your trip is where the line is crossed over.

[KenC]

Capt B,
You make a good point about Pike's T/R not being about seeking a wife.  But don't you think that there should be some interest and valid information obtained from the dating habits of some RW in general that could be used by others that are seeking wives?  With all the off topic threads here, to call this T/R irrelevant because Pike's primary purpose was not seeking a wife, is hair splitting at best.
KenC

[Jazzyclassy]

   Well, count me in among the sex tourist ranks.  Three trips, as a tourist, with three different women, and each time I had a partial purpose of having sex with the woman at the time.  The remainder of my motives are irrelevant as by that limited definition, I would be classified as a sex tourist.
            

Oh come on Davie according to many of your posts you are much more than that , do not allow anyone to break your morals , you went to meet those particular women as your prospective wives but in this or that case something just did not go right, that does not make you a sex tourist

Come on you can not compare Pike with many of great guys who are here, Pike is an extreme I doubt he ever exists sometimes.......maybe that is another agent who has his own purposes , oh only God knows what's on his mind

But once again as a woman it is disgusting revolting , repulsive and all those feelings together to see how many guys and girls  here are defending Pike's report posts... I guess I am a child still if I can not tolerate such adult behaviour , in this case I do not want to be an adult at all!!!!!!!!

[ScottinCrimea]

Jazzy, right on!!!  I want to have your baby!

[Jazzyclassy]

Jazzy, right on!!!  I want to have your baby!

hahahaha

I meant the thing that they still want something from women after such statements as Pike did along his posts

Oi actually it was not in this thread , it was in the thread where only women can vote:)) where Lily is the boss:)