Acceptable Behaviour and Trip Reports

[Kuna]

OK - now THIS we can deal with.

RWD and Principles. I cannot commit to providing the written summary in the next 30 minutes - but certainly within the next 30 days - and probably a lot sooner. Much, or all, of it is already commemorated in past posts - but it will be better for it to be more succinct and in a central location which is easily retrieved.

TR's sans response. I think I announced it as a "trial" - and this experience has illustrated one of the frailties of the experiment. I will take it up with the management team - and probably some others of the members - and we will address this - rest assured.

OK - so no more insults and invective - right?

- Dan

Dan,  

After discovering what some of the members are REALLY like I doubt I will stay motivated to participate anyway.  I may or may not be around in 30 days... I hope I am, but ya know... motivation wains at times.

It's purely coincidence that the following imagine came up in the "Random Image" panel a few minutes ago and it says more to me than it would have a few weeks ago.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?ind=gallery&op=foto_show&ida=343

If the male members here have such low respect for FSUW I don't want to associate with them.... especially if the forum has mechanisms in place to promote their less than honourable behaviour.

Jacks photos cut it pretty close at times but Sokays beach photo looks more like an upskirt pic in a shopping centre than a street shot of beautiful girls.

By the way... let Sokhay know he can go to jail for a photo like that in Australia.  Men that take them are considered predators.

[Mir]

Men can go to jail for that photo!
Why?

[Kuna]

Facts:

Many men that go to FSU are not what most would consider "the cream of the crop" at home

We often hear men in here claim that RWD members are "cream of the crop" out of the losers that do go to FSU

Many FSUW are exploited by men that travel to FSU

We've seen many times in here that men lie about their relationships and encounters with FSUW.  When the women get to comment an entirely different story emerges

Ken supports everything in Pike's TR including the encounter with the 16 yr old child

Ken likes to read things and take things on face value and doesn't apply any consideration or experience to developing his decisions. He just takes it as it's read.

All sides got aggressive with eachother and both sides threw insults.  I regret mine but it doesn't stop my feelings of total contempt for those major contributors supporting this form of TR and defending the right to post it uncommented in our community

[Kuna]

Men can go to jail for that photo!
Why?

I dont know the exact legal reason but it's considered to be parallel to stalking.  Perhaps it has somethnig to do with the breach of personal privacy.

Last year a guy was jailed for 6 months for taking upskirt pics of girls in a shopping centre (on the escalator) and only a few months ago police in Sydney were hunting a man (expected to be a tourist) for taking similar pics of women on Bondi Beach.

[KenC]

Dan, I didn't bother reading much of that thread because I noticed the poll was for women only but when KenC started bullying people around again I couldn't be bothered.

If what you're saying is that the men and women of this RWD supoprt Pike-type trip reports without comments... then I'll leave.  I wouldn't want to associate with you (the people of RWD) in any way.

It's not something my value set can support and I know for sure My Girl woud feel the same way.  Maybe she's not loose and easy like the members assert many RW are but if it doesn't suit us we just won't participate.

Kuna

Kuna,
You know, you and Jazzy are a lot alike.  You think just because you state your opinion with bravado it makes it true.  Of course everyone is entitled to have an opinion.  Like my Father used to say "Opinions are like azzholes, everyone has one."  But an unsubstantiated opinion has no value.  You can say it with all the gusto in the world, but if you cannot support it with logic and facts, it is meaningless.

I didn't "bully" Jazzy, I mearly questioned and challenged her opinion, much like I have to you.  To me "bullying" someone is to berate them, call them names, make unfair conclusions about them and put words they never said into their mouth.  You Sir, are the master bully here.
KenC

[WmGO]

...when KenC started bullying people around again ...

Kuna

Actually KenC is not the bully in this thread. That would be you. In very childish fashion you are ranting and raving for everyone to cave in to *every* aspect of your position, comments and opinions.  Hey, I don't approve of "sex tourism" either but I also do not approve of the way you (and Scot) constantly engage in personal attacks and ranting and raving when someone disagrees with you.

I have had many occassions to score collegiate debate and I can assure you that you have been thoroughly smoked in this debate in general and with KenC in particular.

What must be kept in mind is that Pike speaks for no one but Pike. That's it. He doesn't speak for anyone else and he doesn't reflect on anyone else who posts here. This is an anonymous internet forum of people who for the most part do not know each other. To suggest that one person speaks for everyone else or that one person taints everyone else is ridiculous. We all stand or fall on our own merits.

Now, can we kick the dead horse some more?

[ecr844]

Facts:

Many men that go to FSU are not what most would consider "the cream of the crop" at home

We often hear men in here claim that RWD members are "cream of the crop" out of the losers that do go to FSU

Kuna,

I'm just curious and if I miscomprhended your statement above please accept my apology. Could you please clarify this for me? But reading this it 'sounds' like your saying that because someone (take myself for example) CHOSE to go to the FSU and look for a mate, marriage, etc... That this means I am somehow scum or no longer a viable bachelor at home and is instead a 'looser' and not worthy of 'the cream of the crop?

ECR844

[Jack]

Jacks photos cut it pretty close at times but Sokays beach photo looks more like an upskirt pic in a shopping centre than a street shot of beautiful girls.

Damn!!!!!    What to do?   WHAT to  DO??  


If I post this one photo is it showing too much cleavage for some ???

If I post this one photo is it showing to much cheeks for some ???




(note: all photos were taken on public streets. no photos from bottom of escalators in shopping malls)

[WmGO]

... Could you please clarify this for me? But reading this it 'sounds' like your saying that because someone (take myself for example) CHOSE to go to the FSU and look for a mate, marriage, etc... That this means I am somehow scum or no longer a viable bachelor at home and is instead a 'looser' and not worthy of 'the cream of the crop?
ECR844

He is saying that if anyone disagrees with him they are no longer a member of the cream of the crop club.

[Kuna]

Kuna,

I'm just curious and if I miscomprhended your statement above please accept my apology. Could you please clarify this for me? But reading this it 'sounds' like your saying that because someone (take myself for example) CHOSE to go to the FSU and look for a mate, marriage, etc... That this means I am somehow scum or no longer a viable bachelor at home and is instead a 'looser' and not worthy of 'the cream of the crop?

ECR844

ecr,

Something that discouraged me initially from "dating" when I took my holiday in Ukraine was the common perception in the broader community many that marry FSU women were somewhat predatory.  You know.. old men that aren't having much luck at home go and chase some young girl that's desperate to get out of her country...

Of course there's the perception that all FSU women are sluts and former prostitutes too.

I really thought about it for a while and wondered if I wanted to be a part of such a community.

Ultimately I decided that IF I found some compatible in FSU and IF we married I would measure myself by my own behaviour.. i.e. To hell with what anyone else thinks.

Since travelling to Ukraine (twice) I've met some men who were genuinely good people.  men that met a woman who was compatible and an emtional equal and they're starting (or living) happy lives together.

I've met others that were real scumbags.

My comment in the previous post was a reference to the broader community perception that men that marry women from economically disadvantaged countries are doing so because they can't get a decent wife at home...  and then I went on to ponder the assertion that's often raised in RWD that this community has more upstanding citizen than other International communities.

[Kuna]

He is saying that if anyone disagrees with him they are no longer a member of the cream of the crop club.

You're a very witty and perceptive dude... Obviously cream of the crop... but we've seen your posts in the past... nothing of much vaue there!

[Turboguy]

We all have standards that we hope are compatible with those we make friends with, here and in real life.  If you think RWD is not cream of the crop go hang out for a very short time at some of the other old time forums and watch the likes of smooth operator getting accolades from the other members and all the low classes stuff that goes on and you may appreciate what we have here.

As far as who is in the cream of the crop club I don't think one member disagreeing with another member on one issue qualifies anyone to put anyone into or out of a particular group.

[Kuna]

We all have standards that we hope are compatible with those we make friends with, here and in real life.  If you think RWD is not cream of the crop go hang out for a very short time at some of the other old time forums and watch the likes of smooth operator getting accolades from the other members and all the low classes stuff that goes on and you may appreciate what we have here.

As far as who is in the cream of the crop club I don't think one member disagreeing with another member on one issue qualifies anyone to put anyone into or out of a particular group.

 

That ws a perfect time to interject Ray... just when we were discussing "Cream of the Crop"

 

[vwrw]

Idiots!

Simple... moronic idiots.

If you don't understand something why is the other person the idiot?

[Turboguy]

I am glad you enjoyed that Kuna,  I think a little levity would help you a bit right now Kuna.   I have always felt that it was better to disagree with someones ideas and not to attack them personally.   I have to give my vote for Cream of the Crop to KenC.   

[Kuna]

Turbo,

I understand exactly what the posts were overnight and why I think the responses were idiotic.

As for you annointing who is Cream of the crop (or whatever) I simply couldn't take anything you say seriously considering your recent past.  You've proven what you are...   

By the way...  Cream of the Crop or similar notions isn't something a person is annointed to... I certainly wouldnt claim to be better than others... but if I disagree with something then I have a right to say it.  In TR sans responses no one had the right to comment.  That's the point.  The problem with that is the people that join RWD in 6 months or 12 months and their percetion that such a trip might be embraced by all here...  not just some who folow the same path.

I honestly try not to respond to you now.. Some might endorse your type but again I'm entitled to my opinion.

[Kuna]

Anyway... I feel like enough has been said in this thread now and all we're getting is a couple of whimps coming in with childish taunts...

I feel like I've made my point...  TR's without comments add the risk that future members will think we endorse that sort of behaviour.

Others have expressed their opinions...  it's now up to Dan and Management to decide what kind of place RWD will be.

[Gator]

IMO, Pike is not the issue.  The issue is whether to allow reports to be isolated in "sans response".  As such, Pike's T/R (not Pike) is one example, and it proves to me why there should be DISCUSSION.

I agree that Pike never could have written his report.  He would have been constantly interrupted and attacked.  

Thus, some reports should be isolated, bot only TEMPORARILY.  At the conclusion, the author should ANSWER questions.  Pike should elaborate:  exactly how did he get the women's names, were all women just interested in casual sex and had no thoughts of possible marriage, how many insisted on safe sex, etc.  

There is not enough info in the report to support some of Kuna's claims, nor are all of KenC's claims backed precisely by the content of T/R.  Both of you are making inferences, reading between the lines.  And we should not have to do that.  The author should explain.

[Admin]

IMO, Pike is not the issue.  The issue is whether to allow reports to be isolated in "sans response".  As such, Pike's T/R (not Pike) is one example, and it proves to me why there should be DISCUSSION.

I agree that Pike never could have written his report.  He would have been constantly interrupted and attacked. 

Thus, some reports should be isolated, bot only TEMPORARILY.  At the conclusion, the author should ANSWER questions.  Pike should elaborate:  exactly how did he get the women's names, were all women just interested in casual sex and had no thoughts of possible marriage, how many insisted on safe sex, etc. 

There is not enough info in the report to support some of Kuna's claims, nor are all of KenC's claims backed precisely by the content of T/R.  Both of you are making inferences, reading between the lines.  And we should not have to do that.  The author should explain.

OK - a thought:

What if Pike's TR were moved from its current isolation over to the regular TR forum now that he has posted his Final post?

He has said that he will not reply to the detractors. It is really no different than leaving it where it is, and having a parallel thread to address it - except that those comments will be attached to the same topic.

Would THAT be a good solution?

It would also open up the 'sans response' forum for future members who do not wish to be 'tainted' by association with Pike's topic - and the precedent will have been set that TR's may continue unfettered until conclusion, at which time they are moved over to the regular TR forum for comment.

Make sense?

- Dan

[catzenmouse]

Dan,

 I think that is a good solution to go forward with. I surely don't expect to see any responses to the membership's questions from Pike but it would, at least, group the TR with the wild ride thread associated with it.

What must be kept in mind is that Pike speaks for no one but Pike. That's it. He doesn't speak for anyone else and he doesn't reflect on anyone else who posts here. This is an anonymous internet forum of people who for the most part do not know each other. To suggest that one person speaks for everyone else or that one person taints everyone else is ridiculous. We all stand or fall on our own merits.

 I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. No group of people, however like minded they may be, can or should be judged by the thoughts or words of a single member. It is no different than saying all Native Americans are drunks, all Blacks are on welfare, or all White people can't jump. It is simply nonsensical and wrong.

Ken

P. S. Does that Cream of the Crop club serve free beer? If not, I'll stay down here in the swamp...

[BC]

I think a good many responders in this thread just didn't get the point.  Just because someone voted to keep  Pike's thread is not necessarily an endorsement of the material therein, but likely a statement regarding the principles and purpose of having a no response TR section.

The fact that the material was left untouched also seems to indicate that *within certain limits* there won't be judgements of morality involved as to what is allowed or not..  and that is the way it should be.

Pike posted his experiences in a manner that was within TOS.. and that's that.

Not much to be fussin about IMHO

[ScottinCrimea]

The problem is that we are forced to read between the lines and draw different conclusions because sans response we were not allowed to ask the questions that would make clear Pike's true intent.  When he began his trip report, some did this, called him on a few things and that was when we began to discover that his aims were less than gentlemanly.  At that point he whined and was allowed to post with no comments or challenges.  All we know is what he chose to tell us in the manner he chose.  Still, some salacious things came out in spite of himself.  I saw how his story changed in the beginning after having to respond to questions so I have no doubt that we would have learned a lot more that he didn't want us to learn if he had been forced to explain or justify a few things.  His last post clearly demonstrated the problem with the sans response type of thread.  He was allowed to make comments above and beyond his trip report, totally free to say whatever he wanted about whoever he wanted and no one could respond.

Why the heck are we supporting this guy by giving him a forum and doing it in a way that essentially censors the rest of us?

[ScottinCrimea]

Actually KenC is not the bully in this thread. That would be you. In very childish fashion you are ranting and raving for everyone to cave in to *every* aspect of your position, comments and opinions.  Hey, I don't approve of "sex tourism" either but I also do not approve of the way you (and Scot) constantly engage in personal attacks and ranting and raving when someone disagrees with you.

Okay WmGO, two things.  First is that I noticed you have a problem spelling my name.  At first I gave you the benefit of the doubt and thought that it was a typo, but now I must assume that you are doing it intentially.  Is there a reason behind this?

Second:  I'm going to put you to the KenC test.  Show me the posts where I made personal attacks and ranted and raved.  Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm ranting and raving.  Since according to you I do this constantly, it shouldn't be too hard to find numerous examples.

[KenC]

Scott,
In what way are you being censored?  You may not have been able to respond within his thread, but have you not had the freedom to say all you wanted here?  Why shouldn't a guy have the freedom to write his T/R without interruption?

BTW, this is not the first such T/R.  Photoguy was also allowed to rewrite and repost his T/R sans responses.  In the Photoguy case, Dan allowed his original T/R to be deleted in it's entirety and rewritten.  (The second report had very little similarity to the first.)
KenC

[Daveman]

Well here is something *I* think is important. It's a distinction which sets the T/R section apart from the other forum areas, and that is Trip Report.  It's not the "Trip Discussion and Critique" area.  A report in NOT a discussion.  No one can possibly report on a trip other than the one who goes on the trip.  I can understand the desire to write a report open for comment, or the desire an entire report without interruptions.  That option should be left up to the poster.  But, again a report is not a discussion.

Why is it that we seem to feel a need to insert our comments into the body of a T/R?  If comments are disallowed in that area, so be it.  If it is opened up for discussion after writing it, that's fine too.  But, I do think the poster of a report should have the freedom/ability to actually write the report (within the TOS rules) and not have to enter into a debate in the middle.  If it violates TOS, scrap the report, but if npt those of us foaming at the fingers to annihilate something in a report can either wait until the report is completed or start a new thread.


WmGo wrote:
What must be kept in mind is that Pike speaks for no one but Pike. That's it. He doesn't speak for anyone else and he doesn't reflect on anyone else who posts here. This is an anonymous internet forum of people who for the most part do not know each other. To suggest that one person speaks for everyone else or that one person taints everyone else is ridiculous. We all stand or fall on our own merits.

Very well put... my sentiments exactly about the "reflects on us" aspect.  Also, if anyone looking at our community would see this report and make the statement "Those guys are all sex tourists" because of one inidvidual trip report... then el phuck them.

Sure, that must be boundaries and sometimes censorship, but that's what the TOS rules are for.  If there is a problem with the TOS, then let's address THAT -- and drag Dan out of his haze and smack him around until he changes it..