What kind of immigration bill would you support?

[William3rd]

It wont work- for several reasons-

1) the border problem would just shift south to their southern border-
2) federal minimum wage requirements would have the corporations screaming
3) the same problems of corruption would still exist
4) they would use much more than they provide
5) we can not afford it as a country
6) they dont want to be a state

there are a lot more reasons but these will do for starters

[jb]

BillyB,

Your post tells me that you haven't been to El Paso, TX lately.

[ScottinCrimea]

BillyB,
     You live in Washington, not exactly a border state with Mexico, so you don't see on a day to day basis the impact of all the illegals.  You worry about the price of food going up if they are deported, but you forget about what them being here is already costing us.  I worked in a hospital in the Central valley of California where there was a very large population of Mexicans, both legal and illegal.  Probably 80% of the people we saw in the ER where Hispanic, and the vast majority of them were illegals.  They would use fake names, addresses, etc. to get care and the problem was that we were forbidden to question them about it, and we were forbidden to deny them service even if they were illegal.  They clogged up the ER with routine cases like stuffy noses, constipation, etc. forcing those with more serious needs to wait.  As a percentage, the vast majority of these hospital bills did not get paid or were covered by Medicaid.  The hospitals are forced to increase the cost for the paying customers just to stay in business, which means higher insurance and medical costs for citizens.  Even then, many hospitals have had to close because they could not continue providing care for free and shifting the costs.  The Medical program is I believe the largest portion of the California State budget.

As far as them doing work that others won't do, I have lived in areas with few Mexicans, and the work always seems to get done.  The only difference is that the gardeners, maids, etc don't have dark skin.

I speak fluent Spanish, have lived in Latin America, and know the people well.  I have no ill will toward them at all.  But let's be honest.  Those who come here illegally aren't the best and the brightest.  would you raise a fuss if they built a subsidized trailer park right in the middle of your subdivision?  On a national basis, that is just what is happening.

I also saw first hand what happened after the first two amnesty programs.  The numbers of illegals coming across increased dramatically.  That is actually when the biggest waves of illegal immigration hit.  They figured (correctly) that if we did it once, we would do it again.

The bottom line is that, until the border is secure, nothing will work.  Let's do that first, then worry about how to deal with those already here.  Any program without secure borders first will fail.

[ecr844]

Let's look at just the published statistics here are some preliminary numbers:

Currently, DRO is unable to ensure the departure from the U.S. of all removable aliens. Of the 774,112 illegal aliens apprehended during the past three years, 280,987 (36%) were released largely due to a lack of personnel, bed space, and funding needed to detain illegal aliens while their immigration status is being adjudicated. This presents significant risks due to the inability of Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) and ICE to verify the identity, country-oforigin,
and terrorist or criminal affiliation of many of the aliens being released. Further, the declining personnel and bed space level is occurring when the number of illegal aliens apprehended is increasing. For example, the number of illegal aliens apprehended increased from 231,077 in FY 2002 to 275,680 in FY 2004, a 19 percent increase. However, during the same period, authorized personnel and funded bed space levels declined by 3 percent and 6 percent, respectively. These shortfalls encourage illegal immigration by increasing the likelihood that apprehended aliens will be released while their immigration status is adjudicated.
Further, historical trends indicate that 62 percent of the aliens released. Further, historical trends indicate that 62 percent of the aliens released will eventually be issued final orders of removal by the U.S. Department of Justice Executive Office of Immigration Review (EOIR) and later fail to surrender for removal or abscond.
DRO estimates that in FY 2007 there will be 605,000 foreign-born individuals admitted to state correctional facilities and local jails during the year for committing crimes in the U.S. Of this number, DRO estimates half (302,500) will be removable aliens. Most of these incarcerated aliens are being released into the U.S. at the conclusion of their respective sentences because DRO does not have the resources to identify, detain, and remove these aliens under its Criminal Alien Program (CAP). It is estimated that DRO would need an additional 34,653 detention beds, at an estimated cost of $1.1 billion, to detain and remove all SST, SIC, and CAP aliens.
Additionally, DRO’s ability to detain and remove illegal aliens with final orders of removal is impacted by (1) the propensity of illegal aliens to disobey orders to appear in immigration court; (2) the penchant of released illegal aliens with final orders to abscond; (3) the practice of some countries to block or inhibit the repatriation of its citizens; and (4) two recent U.S. Supreme Court decisions which mandate the release of criminal and other high-risk aliens 180 days after the issuance of the final removal order except in “Special Circumstances.” Collectively, the bed space, personnel and funding shortages coupled with the other factors, has created an unofficial “mini-amnesty” program for criminal and other high-risk aliens.

Also check out the realtime data counter and primary sources for this info here::

http://immigrationcounters.com/


Food for thought,
ECR844

[ecr844]

Alexander Hamilton opposed granting citizenship immediately to new immigrants: "To admit foreigners indiscriminately to the rights of citizens, the moment they foot in our country would be nothing less than to admit the Grecian horse into the citadel of our liberty and sovereignty." Instead, he recommended that we gradually draw newcomers into American life, "to enable aliens to get rid of foreign and acquire American attachments; to learn the principles and imbibe the spirit of our government; and to admit of a philosophy, at least, of their feeling a real interest in our affairs."

Here's a sample of the impact on employement!

Employment Down Among Natives In Georgia


As Immigrant Workers Increased, Native Employment Declined in Georgia

Download a pdf


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Contact: Steven Camarota
sac@cis.org
202-466-8185
 

WASHINGTON (June 20, 2007) — Some businesses in Georgia argue that they need large numbers of immigrants because there are not enough native-born Americans to fill jobs that require relatively little education. However, state employment data show that as the number of less-educated immigrant workers has grown dramatically, the share of less-educated natives holding a job in Georgia has declined significantly.

Between 2000 and 2006 the share of less-educated native-born adults (ages 18 to 64) in Georgia holding a job declined from 71 percent to 66 percent. (Less-educated is defined as having no education beyond high school.)

Had employment rates for natives been the same in 2006 as they were in 2000, then 186,000 more less-educated native-born adults and teenagers would have been working. The number of less-educated immigrants holding a job increased by 218,000.

Less-educated blacks in Georgia have seen a somewhat larger decline in employment, from 66 percent holding a job in 2000 to just 60 percent in 2006.

There are nearly 800,000 less-educated native-born adults in Georgia not working. There are likely between 250,000 and 350,000 less-educated illegal aliens holding jobs in the state.

Wages and salary for less-educated adults in Georgia have stagnated. Over the entire six-year time period of the study, real annual wages for less-educated adults grew by just 1 percent. If there was a labor shortage, wages should be rising fast.

Native-born teenagers (15 to 17 years of age) have also seen a dramatic decline in employment. Between 2000 and 2006 the share of native-born teenagers holding a job declined from 22 percent to 11 percent in the state.

There are about 300,000 native-born teenagers not working in Georgia.

Immigrants (legal and illegal) increased their share of all less-educated workers in Georgia, from 7 percent in 2000 to 19 percent by 2006. Other research indicates that at least half of this growth was from illegal immigrants.
 

Discussion: It would be a mistake to think that every job taken by an immigrant is a job lost by a native. However, it would also be a mistake to think that the kind of dramatic increase in immigrant workers that has taken place in Georgia does not have serious implications for the employment of less-educated natives there. The natives impacted by immigrant competition are already the poorest workers and have the lowest rates of employment. This raises important questions about the fairness of creating so much job competition at the bottom end of the labor market through our immigration policies.

There would seem to be a huge supply of less-educated native-born adults and teenagers in the state to meet the needs of businesses. Of course, a large share of persons who are not in the labor force do not wish to work. But it is also clear that many would be willing to do so if properly paid and treated by employers. This is especially true in light of the fact that so many less-educated natives who are not working were in fact working as recently as 2000.

If, for example, immigration laws were enforced and this resulted in say two-thirds of illegal immigrants leaving the state, it would mean that employers would have to find about 200,000 workers to replace them. Given the very large size of the non-working population in the Georgia, replacing illegal workers would seem to be very possible. Again, assuming they are properly paid and treated properly. It is worth noting that businesses in the state could attract natives from other parts of the country with weaker economies if the large existing pool of less-educated natives in the state was still found to be inadequate. There is also the option of utilizing labor-saving devices and techniques.

While the decline in employment among less-educated natives in Georgia is not in dispute, some may feel that immigrants have little to do with it because they work very different jobs than do natives. While there are some differences in the concentration of immigrants and natives across occupations, the fact remains that less-educated immigrants and less-educated natives very often do the same kinds of work. If we look at the top-five occupational categories done by less-educated immigrants we find that 44 percent of less-educated natives are employed in these same occupations. These include building cleaning and maintenance, construction, production, food preparation and service, and transportation and moving occupations.

Other Research: In a paper published last year by the Center for Immigration Studies, Andrew Sum and his colleagues at Northeastern University found that the arrival of new immigrants (legal and illegal) in a state results in a decline in employment among young native born workers in that state. Their findings indicate that young native born workers are being displaced in the labor market by the arrival of new immigrants. In another recent paper published by the National Bureau of Economic Research (Working paper 12518), the authors found that immigration was responsible for 40 percent of the decline in black employment between 1980 and 2000.

Data Sources: The data for this analysis come from the Annual Social and Economic Supplement of the Current Population Survey (CPS) collected by the Census Bureau in March of each year. It includes legal immigrants and most illegal immigrants. The occupational data discussed above was based on a combined sample of March 2005 and 2006 CPS. We combined two years to get more statistically robust estimates by occupation for the state of Georgia.



# # #

The Center for Immigration Studies is an independent research institute
which examines the impact of immigration on the United States.

[ScottinCrimea]

Interesting statistics, but one thing to keep in mind is that as the borders are sealed and the criminals deported, the cost would go progressively downward as there will be fewer each year to process, incarcerate and deport.  In the short term, strict enforcement would cost more, but in the long term, the overall savings would be significant.

[ecr844]

Interesting statistics, but one thing to keep in mind is that as the borders are sealed and the criminals deported, the cost would go progressively downward as there will be fewer each year to process, incarcerate and deport.  In the short term, strict enforcement would cost more, but in the long term, the overall savings would be significant.

For an idea of the realtime appreciation and loss of revenuem etc.. see this link:

http://immigrationcounters.com/

http://www.cis.org/topics/costs.html

The National Research Council has estimated that the net fiscal cost of immigration ranges from $11 billion to $22 billion per year, with most government expenditures on immigrants coming from state and local coffers, while most taxes paid by immigrants go to the federal treasury. The net deficit is caused by a low level of tax payments by immigrants, because they are disproportionately low-skilled and thus earn low wages, and a higher rate of consumption of government services, both because of their relative poverty and their higher fertility.

This is especially true of illegal immigration. Even though illegal aliens make little use of welfare, from which they are generally barred, the costs of illegal immigration in terms of government expenditures for education, criminal justice, and emergency medical care are significant. California has estimated that the net cost to the state of providing government services to illegal immigrants approached $3 billion during a single fiscal year. The fact that states must bear the cost of federal failure turns illegal immigration, in effect, into one of the largest unfunded federal mandates. 

Publications:

Backgrounder: The Impact of New Immigrants on Young Native-Born Workers, 2000-2005, by Andrew Sum, Paul Harrington, and Ishwar Khatiwada

Testimony: "SAVE: A Useful Tool for State Agencies," Testimony Before The Joint Committee on Housing, Massachusetts State House, September 20, 2005
Statement of Jessica M.Vaughan, Senior Policy Analyst, Center for Immigration Studies

United States Technological Superiority and the Losses From Migration
   by Donald R. Davis and David E. Weinstein
Center for Immigration Studies Backgrounder. February 2005

Social Security 'Totalization': Examining a Lopsided Agreement with Mexico
   by Marti Dinerstein

Center Paper 23: The High Cost of Cheap Labor: Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget
   by Steven A. Camarota, August 2004

Immigration in a Time of Recession: An Examination of Trends Since 2000
   by Steven A. Camarota
November 2003
.pdf version

Back Where We Started: An Examination of Trends in Immigrant Welfare Use Since Welfare Reform
   by Steven A. Camarota
Center for Immigration Studies Backgrounder, March 2003
pdf version
Panel Discussion Transcript

The Impact of Welfare Reform on Immigrant Welfare Use
    by George Borjas
Center for Immigration Studies, March 2002
pdf version
Panel Discussion Transcript

Stamp Act: Immigrants Si, Immigration No
    by Mark Krikorian
National Review Online, January 15, 2002

Public Charge Doctrine: A Fundamental Principle of American Immigration Policy
    by James R. Edwards, Jr.
Center for Immigration Studies Backgrounder, May 2001
pdf version

Distorted Incentives: The United States Pays the University of California Twice as Much to Educate Foreign Graduate Students as American Ones
Center for Immigration Studies Backgrounder, February 2000 
pdf version

The Impact of New Americans: A Review and Analysis of the National Research Council's The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration
    by Steven A. Camarota and Leon Bouvier
Center for Immigration Studies Report, December 1999

Immigration and California Communities
    by William A.V. Clark, UCLA
Center for Immigration Studies Backgrounder, February 1999

Measuring the Fallout: The Cost of the IRCA Amnesty After 10 Years
    by David Simcox
Center for Immigration Studies Backgrounder, May 1997

Immigration and Welfare: The Devil Is in the Details
    by Mark Krikorian
p. 13 in Immigration Review no. 28, Spring 1997

The Costs of Immigration: Assessing a Conflicted Issue
    by David Simcox, John Martin, and Rosemary Jenks
Center for Immigration Studies Backgrounder, September 1994 (summary only)
Coverage

Ok "Billy B," I've backed up my statements with facts now lets see some of yours.



ECR844

[KenC]

Interesting statistics, but one thing to keep in mind is that as the borders are sealed and the criminals deported, the cost would go progressively downward as there will be fewer each year to process, incarcerate and deport.  In the short term, strict enforcement would cost more, but in the long term, the overall savings would be significant.

Scott,
In all fairness, you are only looking at a small area of the "costs."  I think illegal immigrants are California's little white lie.  On the surface they support deportation of illegals, but in reality they support the illegals with their checkbook.  I see it every day in my business here in Southern California.  I loose out on jobs daily to illegal immigrants without proper trade licenses and the reason is very simple: money.  People simply will accept almost anything to save a buck.

I am in the landscape construction business and it is full of illegals.  Workers and even companies.  I had thought about expanding into a maintenance division, but I knew I could not compete with the illegals and unlicensed.  Any Mexican with a pick up, a lawn mower, a weed whip and a blower has his own maintenance company started.  The prices are so ridiculously low due to the competition amongst themselves that any legitimate business owner would be foolish to enter into it.  The average consumer doesn't give a rats ass about it as long as they can get their grass cut for $5 less per week.
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

KenC, I totally agree with you.  I can only speak with authority on those areas where I have personal experience.  There are many more areas where they impact our economy in a negative way that the government doesn't like to talk about.  I do know that even their impact on the health system is enough to convince me that the US has a big problem that needs to be fixed.

[Jet]

I am in the landscape construction business and it is full of illegals.  Workers and even companies.  I had thought about expanding into a maintenance division, but I knew I could not compete with the illegals and unlicensed.  Any Mexican with a pick up, a lawn mower, a weed whip and a blower has his own maintenance company started.  The prices are so ridiculously low due to the competition amongst themselves that any legitimate business owner would be foolish to enter into it.  The average consumer doesn't give a rats ass about it as long as they can get their grass cut for $5 less per week.
KenC

BINGO!
Same thing that destroyed the construction industry here in S. FL.
I got out of trimming houses years ago as I watched the going rate plummet to well below 1/2 what it was when I got in, and it's only gotten worse. Going rate now is 0.20 per foot for baseboard, used to be a buck!

[2tallbill]

WARNING BILL is a radical!!!!
WARNING BILL is a radical!!!!
WARNING BILL is a radical!!!!

Don't take anything too seriously!!!
Don't take anything too seriously!!!
Don't take anything too seriously!!!

This is just a forum be cool!
This is just a forum be cool!
This is just a forum be cool!

To answer the original questions what kind of bill would I support? I guess my answer would be none! They don't enforce the current laws that we have now.

If I were king for a week maybe a month would be better,
My plan would be something like this:


I would put a border patrol official in every public or private hospital in the United States and jail anyone who entered a hospital without proof of citizenship.

Anyone who commits an additional crime (like robbery, drug trafficing etc) while being in the country illegally will have their sentence doubled.

I would grant zero visa's for countries who are havens for terrorism. LIKE Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.

I would use education as a basis for consideration. For example a Russian woman with a Masters  degree and fluent in 3 languages would have a preference over a Man from Mexico with a 5th grade education.

I would build a real fence and do it right away

I would change the rules of engagement for border patrol officers. They could almost shoot and ask questions later. They need to protect themselves from armed drug trafficers etc.

I would test every visa candidate for Aids, TB and anything else I could think of. It's stupid to allow people with dangerous infectious disease into our country.

I would have border patrol officials patrol construction jobsites, Home Depot parking lots etc.

I would build More Jails! Bigger Jails and put law breakers in them.

Any proven gang member will be barred forever from entering the United States

I could go on and on but I am rambling already

Take care,

Bill

[2tallbill]

Here are a list of Jerry Doyles Ten Commandments on immigration

1. IF YOU ENTER THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ILLEGALLY OR OVERSTAY YOUR VISA, YOU WILL NEVER BE ELIGIBLE TO BECOME A CITIZEN OF THE US. NO EXCEPTIONS.
2. IF YOU HIRE SOMEONE WHO IS ILLEGAL, YOU AND / OR YOUR BUSINESS WILL BE FINED $50,000.00 PER EMPLOYEE. “STRICT LIABILITY” WILL BE THE LEGAL STANDARD.
3. THE POLICY OF “ANCHOR BABIES” IS NO LONGER THE LAW. YOU ARE ONLY ELIGIBLE TO BE A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES IF YOU ARE BORN “OF” A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
4. “SANCTUARY CITIES AND / OR STATES” WILL RECEIVE NO FEDERAL TAX DOLLAR REVENUE SHARING OR MATCHING. FEDERAL HIGHWAY SPEED LIMIT STANDARDS WILL BE THE TEMPLATE.
5. “SANCTUARY HOUSES OF WORSHIP”, IN DIRECT VIOLATION OF US LAW, WILL LOSE THEIR TAX EXEMPT STATUS.
6. FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS, DOING BUSINESS IN THE UNITED STATES, WILL BE PROHIBITED FROM OFFERING AND PROVIDING ANY INCENTIVE PROGRAM(S), ANY DISCOUNT LOAN(S), SUBSIDIZED CHECKING AND / OR SAVINGS ACCOUNT(S) OR ANY “SPECIAL” OFFER(S) TO ANYONE IN THIS COUNTRY ILLEGALLY.
7. PUBLIC EDUCATION, MEDICAL AND DENTAL SERVICES, HOUSING, SOCIAL SERVICES, FOOD STAMPS, SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE, SSDI AND ANY OTHER US GOVERNMENT PROGRAM WILL BE FOR THE BENEFIT OF LEGAL RESIDENTS OF THE UNITED STATES ONLY.
8. ANY PERSON(S), CHARITABLE ORGANIZATION(S), OR BUSINESS ENTITY THAT HARBORS ANY ILLEGAL ALIEN(S) WILL BE AUTOMATICALLY BE CHARGED WITH A FEDERAL OFFENSE AND LOSE THEIR CITIZENSHIP.
9. GUEST WORKER VISAS WILL BE ISSUED ON A 5 YEAR TRAILING AVERAGE OF THE AGGREAGATE NUMBER OF VISAS ISSUED WITH ADJUSTMENTS FOR PROJECTED GDP GROWTH AND / OR CONTRACTION.
10. ENGLISH WILL BE THE ONLY LANGUAGE USED IN THE PUBLIC WORKPLACE, PUBLIC EDUCATION, FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OFFICES AND FACILITIES, HOSPITALS AND RELATED MEDICAL FACILITIES AND THE FEDERAL COURT SYSTEM. ALL VOTING FOR FEDERAL OFFICES WILL BE DONE IN ENGLISH ONLY.

[2tallbill]

JOKE alert.........

Dear President Bush
 
I have a proposal that will solve the 12,000,000 illegal alien problem. They all claim the only reason for coming here is to seek work at a reasonable wage. Well let's put them all to work building a fence across the U.S.A. and Mexican border and pay them $20 an hour. We need less than 12,000 miles of fence so 12,000,000 workers should be able to complete that task  less than 4 hours. Just make sure they build it from the southern side so they will be home when it is finished and then give them all an application to become U.S. citizens like everyone else did before they were allowed in this country.
Run this by Laura and Dick and let me know what you think.
 
 

[KenC]

JOKE alert.........

Dear President Bush
 
I have a proposal that will solve the 12,000,000 illegal alien problem. They all claim the only reason for coming here is to seek work at a reasonable wage. Well let's put them all to work building a fence across the U.S.A. and Mexican border and pay them $20 an hour. We need less than 12,000 miles of fence so 12,000,000 workers should be able to complete that task  less than 4 hours. Just make sure they build it from the southern side so they will be home when it is finished and then give them all an application to become U.S. citizens like everyone else did before they were allowed in this country.
Run this by Laura and Dick and let me know what you think.
 
 

Penn & Teller had a show on immigration with a similar story line to this joke.  They hired 6 illegal workers to install maybe 20' of fencing approved by the government for the Mexican border.  It took these guys 8 to 10 hours to build it.  Then they grouped them into 3 teams of 2 men each to try and cross the fence.  One team went under, another over and the third went through the fence.  The slowest team took maybe 5 mins to get through it.  Of course the name of the show is called BULLSH!T.
KenC

[wxman]

Make sure they build the fence on our side of the border, not like the latest incident where we built the fence on the Mexican side, and now we have to spend millions tearing it down. Good ol American ingenuity. Apparently geography is not understood very well by our surveyors.   

[TigerPaws]

BillyB,

One issue that I have yet to hear very much about is that most illegals who are working in the U.S.A. have had to show some form of identification and knowing they crossed our border illegally they are using fraudulent documents which is a FELONY. Anyone using any form of fraudulent documents is committing a very serious crime.

We need to prosecute both the employer and the criminal not give them any form of amnesty for committing a felony on our country.

TigerPaws     

[ecr844]

BillyB,

One issue that I have yet to hear very much about is that most illegals who are working in the U.S.A. have had to show some form of identification and knowing they crossed our border illegally they are using fraudulent documents which is a FELONY. Anyone using any form of fraudulent documents is committing a very serious crime.

We need to prosecute both the employer and the criminal not give them any form of amnesty for committing a felony on our country.

TigerPaws     

"Tiger,"

They were already a felon when they enteredt the country illegaly, they just fulfilled their second + potentially more strikes when they presented false documentation, etc... Anyone else seeing the begining to see a trend?

ECR844

[catzenmouse]

Anyone else seeing the begining to see a trend?

Sadly enough, the trend we have seen, and will continue to see, is that nothing will be done about it. Why would our great and glorious leaders want to piss off 12 million plus future registered voters. Nope, they'll continue with their HUB caps on and sometime in the future they'll slip amnesty in on another bill and it will be done.

Ken

(HUB=Head Up Butt)

[KenC]

BillyB,

One issue that I have yet to hear very much about is that most illegals who are working in the U.S.A. have had to show some form of identification and knowing they crossed our border illegally they are using fraudulent documents which is a FELONY. Anyone using any form of fraudulent documents is committing a very serious crime.

We need to prosecute both the employer and the criminal not give them any form of amnesty for committing a felony on our country.

TigerPaws     

Not true Tiger,
The illegals here in CA can use their Mexican DL as ID to get a bank account at Bank of America where they give a photo ID debit card.  Illegals now can finance cars, get car insurance and drive within the law.  There is absolutely no cross information sharing between local police and the border patrol.  One of the local cities just passed an ordinance that renters must prove that they're legal, but that was shot down with a massive protests and threats of lawsuites.  Not sure if the ACLU was involved or not.
KenC

[BillyB]

Currently, DRO is unable to ensure the departure from the U.S. of all removable aliens. Of the 774,112 illegal aliens apprehended during the past three years, 280,987 (36%) were released largely due to a lack of personnel, bed space, and funding needed to detain illegal aliens while their immigration status is being adjudicated.

Can anybody tell me the cost of enforcement of 12 million illegals to round them up and send them back? Or do you expect voters to vote blindly without knowing the costs? I'm not going to write a blank check. The one stat that seems to be missing is the price tag and the estimated success rate of rounding up illegals if amnesty is not to be. Price is high, success is low, period. Although people overwhelmingly don't want amnesty, Congress knows it's good for our economy. Even though the Kyoto treaty is supposed to help the environment, no Senator, Liberal or Conservative voted in favor of it because they do care about the American economy even though they dispute on what methods are best.

ecr, In the past I've read similar stuff that you've presented and I used to think like you on this immigration issue. I'm not buying the BS from special interest groups. Now, I can think for myself. I don't believe the myth uneducated white guys are losing jobs to illegal immigrants. The facts are unemployment is low and getting lower and ANYBODY, regardless of skin color can go to a farm and pick fruits and vegetables. If you don't make money, it's probably because you're lazy, not because an illegal took your job.

Also you seem to be disappointed in the amount of American dollars getting sent back home by immigrants. I sure hope you are as generous to your wife, kids and parents as the immigrants are.

If things were your way, there would never have been amnesty in the past and the number of illegals would be a lot higher and much more of a burden on the taxpayer.

tigerpaws, yes illegals use false documents to get a job and employers send that info in and pay taxes on that employees wages. But it seems to me you want to think businesses should be experts at detecting fake documents and should be punished severely. I hope you're prepared to pay for a number of bankruptcies when farms are raided and farmers get heavily fined and can't get their crops harvested in time. I'm glad you're not running the show. Your no tolerance stance is going to cost a lot of people. What is your solution to harvest crops and replace workers if you send all illegals back? It's ridiculous to spend money, catch and send millions of immigrants home and then have to import millions of immigrants to replace them. And you are making life more difficult for the American farmer who's numbers are already dwindling. Keep in mind, the immigrants you do import to work the farms must be motivated and ready to relocate every few weeks to another farm and different States to harvest other farmer's  crops when needed. Tough job. Who wants that?

Scott, yes illegals are a burden to the medical and educational fields. But if we give them amnesty to the point they are not afraid to give out their real name and address, then maybe the hospital could send them a bill to collect on services.

2tall, sounds like a good idea to put an enforcement officer in the hospitals to catch illegals. The perfect time to catch them is when they're down, sick and can't run very fast. But it is un-American as we are a compassionate people who give food and aid even to the likes of North Koreans.

KenC, I work in construction and I understand too the Mexicans have taken over landscaping. But if they were legal through amnesty, they could pay taxes on their wages and businesses which in turn they must raise rates making them less competitive.

jb, I have not been to El Paso but I've been to a whole lot of Texas. Enforcement should be more concentrated on problem areas since it's impossible to effectively police all of America. Maybe El Paso is one of them cities enforcement should concentrate on.

catz, both parties at the highest level want amnesty. Getting a vote from Mexicans who rarely vote isn't worth the pissing off and losing the vote of most of Americans who don't want amnesty. It's about the economy.

I have one Mexican working for me. It took him three tries crossing the border before he was successful. He's now legal and not a criminal anymore as some would call him due to previous amnesty. He knows guys who tried 7 or more times to get into America. Getting sent back is only a setback for these guys and they will try again and again to get here. When you have nothing, you have nothing to lose. They are not coming to America because of amnesty or the potential of it, they are coming for a better life whether they live legaly or illegally. If these guys are spending days crossing the desert to come to America and risking their lives, putting up a fence will only be a speed bump.

I live hours within the Canadian border, the preferred boarder of choice for terrorists. They caught guys trying to tunnel underground to come to America.

I understand I'm not going to convince most people that amnesty is the best thing to do.  But realize, if it were so easy, Congress would do what the voters wants, especially if this is about votes. The next bill to be voted on will certainly have amnesty in it again because it is best for the economy. Unfortunately most of the voters  do not understand the cost and that they will pay much more than the illegal immigrant's medical bills if they stickly want enforcement and keeping illegals illegal.

I'm for putting more tax dollars in to locking up real criminals. I'm against legalizing drugs but it's not practical to lock up or keep illegal 12 million people who's only crime is crossing the border and trying to work by any means. It's better to bring them out of hiding, let them contribute to society by collecting taxes off their labor.

[Jeff Mowatt]

I guess the article below represents a view that many here wouldn't subscribe to:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/drew-westen/speaking-the-right-langua_b_54531.html

In Europe we've come to accept migration as a consequence of evolution in much more densely populated spaces. We need these migrants to provide labour and the tax revenue that supports our state pensions within an otherwise aging population.

We also have antagonism, from those who believe that any country has a finite number of jobs and wealth to go round and that these migrants are "taking our share".       

In the end these are people, like us. who mostly want to work and improve their lives and with the right support could do so, either by helping them where they live now, or taking them in amongst us.

In Mexico, where I communicate with the artisans of Taxco,  the "wetback wives" remain trying to make a pittance from their jewelry. I know there is abject poverty and it is the world's business if we want to ensure stability in our future. The most single important step would be offering these people access to markets via the credit mechanisms which are denied them. Yet there are those who advocate spending millions just keeping them out.

How strange it is to hear this advocated here, where many are actively involved in the pursuit of would-be migrant women and the businesses associated with it. This would lead most to suspect that there's a strong smell  hypocrisy, ie  - "Immigration is OK as long as it's only attractive Russian women and not Mexicans"

   

 
 

[Mir]

What I have heard from Americans here who have first hand experience the Mexicans just want to come to US and live on taxes payed by honest hard working Americans.

[Jet]

I guess the article below represents a view that many here wouldn't subscribe to:

http://www.huffingtonpost...right-langua_b_54531.html

I think you're wrong. I think most here WOULD subscribe to:
_{from the article}"Most Americans just want an alternative story to "amnesty for dark-skinned lawbreakers who steal our jobs and want to say the Pledge of Allegiance in Spanish." They want a narrative that has the ring of truth--but comprehensive truth about comprehensive reform.

To be compelling, and to defuse the morality tale on immigration of the right and righteous, our story needs to begin with the most important truth, for which we needed no reminder this week from London and Glasgow, that the protection of our borders and safety is the first task of government."

This would lead most to suspect that there's a strong smell  hypocrisy, ie  - "Immigration is OK as long as it's only attractive Russian women and not Mexicans"

NO Dude!  I'm confident that most here advocate "Immigration is OK as long as you start by going to the back of the line and waiting your turn like the attractive Russian women do." There is no hypocrisy when comparing a group of people that abide by the law vs a group of people who willfully circumvent the law by any means possible. The strong smell of hypocrisy from my point of view is when the federal gov't entertains the thought of rewarding lawbreakers while apparently working ever more diligently to punish those who attempt follow those same laws, all in the name of "security".

[TigerPaws]

Not true Tiger,
The illegals here in CA can use their Mexican DL as ID to get a bank account at Bank of America where they give a photo ID debit card.  Illegals now can finance cars, get car insurance and drive within the law.  There is absolutely no cross information sharing between local police and the border patrol.  One of the local cities just passed an ordinance that renters must prove that they're legal, but that was shot down with a massive protests and threats of lawsuites.  Not sure if the ACLU was involved or not.
KenC

KenC the point is that in order to work at anything but a day job for cash a person legal or illegal MUST show or provide a SSN number and proof of legal status. When they do so that is when the FELONY has been committed and unless we as a nation are to forgive people for committing a very serious crime then these people should be given a choice, go back or face prosecution and prison time then be sent back.

TigerPaws

[TigerPaws]

BillyB,

 You never answered what to do about the illegals who have committed a felony by knowingly using fraudulent documents? Are we as a nation of laws to forgive the commission of this and other crimes?

TigerPaws
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