Engaged...Financial Expectations

[RK]

You are now engaged to your lady and have filed the I-129F. What financial responsibilities do you feel you now have towards your fiancee while she is there (Ukraine) and you are here while you go through the visa process? What are fair expectations from them? Did she expect you to supplement her income so she could quit her job, if she was working? Is being engaged looked upon the same as being married for financial support? Any feedback you have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[philb]

My situation was a little different in that my wife and I got married in Ukraine.  Be that as it may,  she quit her job about three months before comming to the USA and I supported her during this time.  I felt that this was completely appropriate and would have done the same even if we were "only" engaged.

It may have been possible for her to continue to work closer to the time of her departure, but in my opinion it only would have caused an undue amount of stress for her.

There is a lot of work involved in moving to another country and in the FSU this type of work (preparation of documents, arranging finances, selling cars, etc.) seems to take quite a bit more time than it does in the US.

[KenC]

RK,
If you read the old threads here you will find that guys have gone from giving their fiancee full financial support to nothing at all and everything in between.  Personally, I think if the woman was self supporting before, why shouldn't she continue to do so?  I do think the man should cover any additional expenses incurred due to the relationship.  Things like English classes, driving classes and of course any expenses due to the visa process.

I treated the dating and engagement process to my Russian wife of almost 8 years just as I would have the same with an AW.  I don't think it is a "given" that her lifestyle should automatically be improved just because the RW has an AM as a boyfirend or even an AM as a fiancee.  I know others have given their Russian gf or fiancee regular cash payments, but that doesn't sit too well with me.  It would feel like a payment for affection to me.  I know my wife would have never accepted such an arrangement either.
KenC

[BC]

I guess it depends whether or not  the I-129 is for the purpose intended or if you want to mimic Donald Trump and host your own off-air Apprentice show..

After my wife accepted my proposal no mentions of support ensued. I did however hand over a good 10K+ limit CC and pin at the airport which puzzled her a bit.  I explained that as my future wife, her well-being and security was my responsibility and her charge was to use our resources wisely - which she did.

[I/O]

Extras pertaining to relocation and future life with you are fine IMO, however she lived before you, why is it that she needs you (your finances) now? It is this question one should always ask themselves.  IMO the one you need doesn't need you.

I/O

[DKMM]

The only time you should step in and support a fiance is if she has to stop working.  otherwise I'm sticking with Ken's advice above and its working just fine.

[catzenmouse]

I do think the man should cover any additional expenses incurred due to the relationship.  Things like English classes, driving classes and of course any expenses due to the visa process.

That's how we handled it as well. I also did some some extra money for her to be able to take some time off to be with her family and friends if she wanted to. She didn't do that but saved the money and brought it with her when she came here.

Ken

[KenC]

Ken,
Please don't get me wrong, I think a man should be generous and giving with gifts and maybe with providing for "unexpected" benefits from her lover.  But I do not feel the man assumes any financial responsibility until marriage.  Being a fiancee is not the same as wife in my mind.  Therefore I would never take the actions that say, BC did until marriage.  I just do not believe that the resources are to be shared until after marriage.

Our situation was a little different than most here as Lena lived with me here for months before we married.  Of course she didn't want for anything while she was here.  I tried my best to provide everything she needed and she always had some money in her pocket for discretionary purchases.  But as far as sharing resources, that didn't happen until after we were husband and wife.
KenC

[catzenmouse]

KenC,

 No worries. I took your post exactly the way you explained it. Just added the part about what we did to show how seriously Elena took our relationship as well in that she didn't go off on any shopping spree or other such behavior.

Ken

[BC]

Being a fiancee is not the same as wife in my mind.  Therefore I would never take the actions that say, BC did until marriage.  I just do not believe that the resources are to be shared until after marriage.

KenC,

I kinda see things like this.. my commitment was 100% and the level of trust was equal.  If I had felt any hesitation at all, I should not have made a proposal in the first place.

Yes, she could have raked the account clean.. I didn't even look until the statement came in at the end of the month.  Had something untoward occurred there would be no one else to blame but myself.  I wouldn't even cry scam.  When the statement did arrive I liked what I saw.

I think it is far worse to take the commitment of engagement lightly always thinking 'what the heck.. I have a back door outta here'.  Either you are committed or not.. there's no in-between in my book.

Maxx kinda blasted me in an IMBRA related thread but I stand my ground.. If guys going into this venture are forced to put both nuts on the line a lot less train wrecks would happen..  I guarantee it.

If one is not sober enough to overcome hermones they shouldn't even think about this venture.

I suggest every guy do exactly as I did..  If they can't, well.. they should hold off proposing until they can.

[William3rd]

Paying for english lessons and those types of expenses are one thing but-open ended expense accounts are a little over the top to my mind.

I have seen too many disasters to suggest that you should pay the freight for someone you have not yet married.

Of course, some of us are made of money and like to flaunt their wealth and you cant tell them anything since it is pocket change to them.

For the rest of us, it is more than pocket change and it is not a matter of trusting your partner-more like fiscal responsibility

[BC]

I have seen too many disasters to suggest that you should pay the freight for someone you have not yet married.

I would assume that the 'take' -up front is a lot less than that after marriage.. in relative terms even cheap.

[KenC]

BC,
I see your point and agree that too many guys (and women?) take getting engaged too lightly.  It is almost like when my kids were in middle school and "went" with someone.  All very childish in my mind and not very serious at all.  In fact, I think most of the "engagements" we witness here are of the less serious type.  Almost as a step to satisfy the K-1 requirements, but not of the serious nature as your engagement obviously was.  How serious can it be when guys like DKMM are buying engagement rings after knowing the woman only a few hours?  Would you advocate DKMM taking the same steps as you did?   I guess it all boils down to how serious the engagement really is.  I think in your mind, you and your wife were already married, but the paperwork just had not yet been completed.  In that case, I agree completely. (Like you needed my approval  )
KenC

Edited to add: I also think that an engagement with pending visa approval is different from being engaged to someone living in the same country already.  There is still a lot of control over the situation in someone's hands other than the couples.  Look at Turbo for example.  He has no clue as to the timing of his marriage or if his woman will ever be allowed to enter America.

[William3rd]

You can prove up your situation for a lot less than 10K.

Example- a stipend for english lessons. Serious women are anxious to learn and proud to show off what they learn. A month or so of english lessons and your fiancee will be talking with you, if she is really working on her lessons.

[BC]

Edited to add: I also think that an engagement with pending visa approval is different from being engaged to someone living in the same country already.  There is still a lot of control over the situation in someone's hands other than the couples.  Look at Turbo for example.  He has no clue as to the timing of his marriage or if his woman will ever be allowed to enter America.

Yeah, if worse comes to worse they could settle on that island, buy a house, get a small business going, get married and after a couple years she could probably get a tourist visa.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

[KenC]

Yeah, if worse comes to worse they could settle on that island, buy a house, get a small business going, get married and after a couple years she could probably get a tourist visa.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Of course you're right, but that is a completely different scenario than they originally envisioned.  And that is my point, the final outcome is out of their control.
KenC

[BC]

Of course you're right, but that is a completely different scenario than they originally envisioned.  And that is my point, the final outcome is out of their control.
KenC

There is a lot of 'what if' that one must consider.  I bet a lot of guys in his shoes would have dropped out already.

I guess in a way you are also saying 'Never underestimate the difficulty of this venture.' - and I concur.

[jb]

I cannot speak for others, but my wife never asked for a dime before we were married.  After that it was all her's anyway.  However, she still counts every dollar twice before she will consider spending it.

I got one of the good ones.

[KenC]

I cannot speak for others, but my wife never asked for a dime before we were married.  After that it was all her's anyway.  However, she still counts every dollar twice before she will consider spending it.

I got one of the good ones.

jb,
Gotta agree with you there and mine was the same.  If you think about it though, most of the guys that put thier gf/fiancees on some sort of regular payment plans, do so without being asked.  For some reason, which I do not agree, the guys think that they should raise the standard of living of the women.
KenC

[Kuna]

I think most "good women" wouldn't ask for or accept money just to improve their lifestyle or "make things easier". There could be exceptional circumstances though...

My Girl actually doen'st want to stop working up until she's ready to leave because she wants to stay busy.  She's also had all of her documents translated now and I nearly fell off my chair when I saw the invoice for $100. She wouldn't accept money for this because she said she'd saved up for it.

Of course I send gifts etc, and before I left this time I tried to give her some cash but she wouldn't accept it because she said she didn't need it.  Before leaving for the airport I left it on the kitchen table with a note but on first contact (when I was in Vienna) I was chastised for it...   

In short... I don't think a good woman would accept financial support and most good woman wouldn't accept it if offered unless there were exceptional circumstances.

[KenC]

Sounds like you found a winner there, Kuna.
KenC

[Kuna]

Thanks Ken...  I think she is a great girl...  If we could only get her to spent a little on taxi's when I'm in Ukraine with her it'd be perfect... 

One day after walking for 9 hours in 35 celcius heat we were ready to go home with our arms full of groceries and shopping bags.  I suggested a taxi but she said it's too expensive (25 grivna or about $5) and we should get the bus (60 cents for both of us).  I said "No, I'm buggered... let's get a cab".

She asked a cabbie how much and then rebuffed him and walked off.  I suggested she doesn't ask them but instead tell them where we're going and then just say "25 grivna" as I open the door.

She said it wouldn't work but we gave it a go and instead of the usual quote of 50 grivna the next cabbie said 30.  I immediately thought "woo hoo" but she rebuffed him too and off we went.

I had to stop and ask her what the problem was and she was adamant when telling me "30 grivna is not good value"...
 
I tried to explain that the extra 5 grivna was only $1 but she put me back in my place by reminding me the fare wasn't $1 it was $6... "and $6 isn't good value".

I gave in and we walked for another 45 minutes to the bus but when we got there we realised it was almost 11pm and there were no buses at that time - so we ended up getting a taxi anyway.

As it turned out we were both happy... me because we got a taxi and her because she finally found one for 25 grivna!

[KenC]

Kuna,
It is kind of like "Goldilocks and the Three Bears". one girl will spend too much and another too little, where a third might be just right!

Seriously though, it takes time for the couple to meld together and come to an understanding of when to splurge or even to what splurging is.  The gals in the fsu have no concept of how insignificant a dollar really is to us (Bless their hearts)  But I would much rather see a woman that is too conscious of spending money than not conscious enough!
KenC

[bgreed]

OK I guess I'll jump in on this one. I send Lena $250 a month to help out with expenses.  Before her salary was supplimented by her mom and brother.  So I felt that if I was going to be the man and was serious about her and her son then I would step up to the plate.   Now things have changed a bit as she is now pregnant (never trust UA birth control pills) and we will be having a son at the end of October.  She has just recently stopped working as her job was pretty stressful and is teaching kids begining English for private lessons.

I guess what I'm really saying here is if your really serious then ante up.  If your just playing well that's just not me.  By the way we'll be getting married next month !!!

[I/O]

Kuna: Not an untypical attitude among the eastern girls I have come to know. I remember one particular instance no so long back where I insisted we order a cab to her home in order to travel here there and all over arranging a few things. After a fairly heated discussion she did give in and order the cab but was none too happy about it. 

This guy was probably the best cabbie I have struck in Russia, the car was spotlessly clean and nothing was too much trouble. We had to get my visa validated, go to banks, rah rah, a whole host of matters. He would drive us to the spot and wait while we did what was needed.  I just let it go and figured I would get "Tried on" for a fairly decent sum at the end.  After about 1 1/2 hours and all was completed the poor cabbie had the hide to ask me for 150 roubles. ($7-7.50 Au) I gave him 250 roubles and took his mobile number so I could use him again if need be. The service was simply spot on.

Did I get hammered or what for giving such a heavy tip. :hairraising:  I don't know how many times I was told how many containers of milk that would buy.

Back to the authors question, I feel that if she has expectations, then she is perhaps not all that one might respect.  If you choose to impart periodical gifts or surprises, thats a whole 'nother matter which is completely personal.  Due to the economic disparity, this can be a difficult subject to come to grips with.

I/O