researcher introduction

[jen]

Dear All,

I am a cultural anthropologist currently involved in research on international marriage/matchmaking agencies -- particularly Russian-American -- as well as the current debates surrounding IMBRA.

I've been in touch with the owner of this board about the fact that I have been reading here, and I just wanted to let all of you know that I am around and looking forward to some conversations.  I'm aware that there have been a few researchers here in the past, following various methodologies. I don't have a survey instrument, and I am not looking to do private "interviews" with those who are on this board, unless anyone wants to do that. My approach is more one of "participant observation," which in layman's terms basically means hanging around and getting to know people in a relatively informal way.  That is, I may start new threads or participate in threads from time to time. Anyone's participation or lack thereof is obviously up to them. I don't need any personal information from anyone, other than whatever you are already sharing on the board. In any future publications, I will not name this board, nor use the names (either real or handles) of anyone quoted here.

This is not the only place I am conducting research; I'm following some other boards, as well as meeting with participants from various perspectives (married couples, agency executives, activists, etc.) in person.  For the record, my background is that of a Russianist researcher; I lived in St. Petersburg for some time and have been interested generally in the challenges presented by everyday life in the post-Soviet context.  It was while I was living in Russia that I first heard about the international dating phenomonen and got interested. While I do not take sides in the IMBRA debates, my primary concern is to understand more deeply than is usually the case why people from both sides get involved in this activity in the first place -- to understand the meaning that this has for them and how their previous experiences have led them to it. I'm also interested in this as a realm of cross-cultural encounter: one thing that has struck me from reading the boards is how much people are learning about one another across national/cultural borders and how rich the discussions here often are along those lines. Finally, I'm interested to understand better why IMBRA has touched such a nerve in the U.S. at this moment in time. Many people know nothing about it, but many of those who do seem to feel pretty strongly about it one way or another, and I see it as a significant cultural debate.

For anyone who has read Nicole Constable's book on international matchmaking, this gives a good indication of my general methodology and sensibility -- I share a lot with her approach, and am pushing forward now to concentrate on the Russian (vs. Asian) side of things and to update the discussion of IMBRA and its implications.  I would be happy to answer any questions about what I am up to.

I guess I will leave it there for now and look forward to more talks.

Best wishes, J.

[catzenmouse]

Welcome Jen!

 I hope you understand that many, maybe even most, here do not and will not trust your motives as a researcher. Only with time and your openness in posting will that opinion change. I trust you've read through Ada's Research Project so you've already seen some of this in action.

 How long did you live in Russia? Was it only in St. Petersburg? Spend any time traveling through the country? Still go back to visit?

 Good luck with your project.

Ken

[Sohkay]

Hello Jen,

As you can read, this board is primarily about relationships with FSU women. Most of us regulars are aware of whether the other is searching, engaged, married, divorced, etc. If you want to participate, it would show goodwill on your part by telling us about you. Are you in a relationship now? If you are, or if you have been, has/is this relationship been with a man, or a woman?

One other thing....do you see yourself eventually (if not already) in a long term committed relationship like marriage?

I think this would be a good starting point.

[jen]

Hi all,

Well, let me try to answer those questions a bit. I lived in St. Petersburg mostly, with a number of different trips as a student and then as a researcher totaling about 2 years in all. I have done a bit of traveling, but only in European Russia (plus a bit in Central Asia a long time ago).  I was there for the longest time in 1998-1999, doing dissertation research. Since then I have been back a few times, with the last time being in 2004 (by that point working on the matchmaking agencies research -- I observed a tour in St. Petersburg).  I'd like to get back but am not sure how soon it will be. Having a family makes things more complicated.

Which brings me to the next question -- I'm married with one child so far. I was lucky enough to meet my spouse in college, so I avoided the "dating scene" which sounds pretty difficult from what people on these boards and some of my friends have told me. I'd like to think that these personal details don't shed much light in any direction in particular on what my approach to this topic would be...but certainly, everyone has his or her bias, and I understand your curiousity.

I am a feminist, but as I think you are aware, there is no one feminist answer or judgment about what is happening in international matchmaking. I was recently on another board where someone found this paper of mine that was posted online. I don't know exactly where all of this will end up, of course -- it's in progress, which is why I am here -- but this gives you something to go on in terms of seeing what kind of perspective I bring to this issue...

http://www.princeton.edu/~restudy/soyuz_papers/Patico.pdf

Thanks for your replies, J.

[ecr844]

"Jen,"

I have a few questions for you.

1.) Do you truely believe that the term "Mail Order Bride," is either appropriate and or accurate?
2.) Who is funding your research and what are your 'self-percieved and or known biases'
3.) Do you really think Russian Women are 'totally submissive' and or setting themselves up to be in an 'abusive' and unequal' relationship?
4.) Has all of  and or the majority your time and interaction in this process been with 'Romance tours' and the men who frequent them?
5.) What do you intend to do with your paper whenit is finished and published ( i.e.: what is your goal with this endeavor)?
6.) In a strengthened Russia which has more buying power and in the face of a uniting Europe do you still believe the RW do this solely on an economic basis (i.e.: to improve their own position as the sole reson to immigrate)?

Thanks in advance,
ECR844

[Nat]

Hi Jen, welcome to forum! Good luck with your research and don't forget to share your conclusions with public, ok?
Btw, since that time you was in Russia things changed considerably in the country and mentality of people. Are you going to repeat your travel to FSU to get more up-to-date vision of the subject?

[William3rd]

Looking forward to seeing this research as it unfolds. . . . .

[Turkey]

Talk about brave   Brava Jen!  I look forward to reading your posts.

[jen]

Hi all,

I'll try to answer the questions posted above.  Re: going back to Russia, well I certainly hope to, but personal reasons (i.e. having a child) has been keeping me closer to home for now. I think I already said that the last time I was there was 2004.

Nat, how would you say that mentalities have changed there in 3 years? I don't doubt that they have, since things change there swiftly, but I'd be curious to hear what you think.

More questions...

1.) Do you truely believe that the term "Mail Order Bride," is either appropriate and or accurate?

No and no.

2.) Who is funding your research and what are your 'self-percieved and or known biases'

Right now it is funded by my university; in the past, my research in Russia was funded by IREX, an organization that is non-governmental but uses some government funding. However, they played no role in directing my research or limiting its outcomes.

The other part of the question is more difficult. I think I can answer it best this way: I'm an American woman with long-term experience in Russia and good friends who are RW. After many conversations with friends there, I do not find it particularly surprising or disturbing that some Russian women are looking for American husbands (though not all RW think it is a good idea, of course). I am a feminist, but as a cultural anthropologist, a large part of my feminism has to do with trying to view situations from the perspective of social actors themselves. I  strive to do justice to RW's own agency, how they define and go after their own desires, just as I would hope to do the same for American men. In the end, I will put together my own analysis of the "big picture" that arises from all of the smaller pictures put together. I will be accountable for that picture in the end, and inevitably, it will reflect my biases, personal or intellectual. But I am serious about trying to understand where people are coming from on their own terms. I'm not out to condemn anybody. On the contrary, it seems to me that many of the conversations that happen about this issue in the public eye are based less on real engagement with the people who are involved and more on assumptions about the things that "must" be disturbing or distasteful about it.

3.) Do you really think Russian Women are 'totally submissive' and or setting themselves up to be in an 'abusive' and unequal' relationship?

No and no. Some of the Russian women I have known talk about the idea of a husband being head of a household, primary provider, etc. etc. in positive light. For some Americans this would be some indication of an unequal relationship, and it may not be how I wish to define my own relationship; but I do not see it as abusive and as an anthropologist, I try to gain knowledge about the cultural context and historical experiences that would lead people to define ideal family structures in their own particular ways.

4.) Has all of  and or the majority your time and interaction in this process been with 'Romance tours' and the men who frequent them?

Well, let's see. To date I have talked to people who work in agencies, both Russian- and American-owned, in Russia and in the U.S. I've observed the romance tour, including conversations with both male and female clients. I've met a few already married couples. I've been exploring these discussion boards of late. In the near future, I will be meeting with some who represent the other side of the debate (i.e., pro-IMBRA). 

Are you asking whether I have also been talking to people who specifically are seeking an international relationship but do not work through tours, or...?

5.) What do you intend to do with your paper when it is finished and published ( i.e.: what is your goal with this endeavor)?

The end product will be academic publications: articles published in scholarly (anthropological) journals.

6.) In a strengthened Russia which has more buying power and in the face of a uniting Europe do you still believe the RW do this solely on an economic basis (i.e.: to improve their own position as the sole reson to immigrate)?

I don't think that RW do or ever did this solely on an economic basis. I suppose there could be a few people who calculate in that manner, but it seems clear to me that there is much more involved: desires for a kind of relationship/marriage that they have had trouble finding at home, their perceptions about American men as husbands, etc.  If Russia's economy continues to strengthen, will this phenomenon wane? I really have no idea. It seems to me that there would be some effect, but economics is clearly not the only factor involved. It has a lot to do with trends in gender relations in Russia, too, (as well as the U.S.); and the possible relationship of this with economic development is difficult to predict, I'd say.

Umm...I think that covers it for now. Thanks.

[Turkey]

I am a feminist, but as I think you are aware, there is no one feminist answer or judgment about what is happening in international matchmaking.

I appreciate that you've made it clear that you are a feminist.  I remember in college 'Topics in economics' was actually 'Income imbalances by sex in the labor force' and 'Ways of understanding the bible' was 'Female representation in religions'. 

I think you can see where some might question your integrity, considering some of the personal experiences some have had in the past.

I am curious though, whether or not you consider power imbalances (in whichever way you want to define them) in relationships are inherently immoral, or are categorically 'oppressive'.  I understand if you don't want to answer the question, and I don't mean to distract you from your research here by taking this thread to a different topic.

[ecr844]

Are you asking whether I have also been talking to people who specifically are seeking an international relationship but do not work through tours, or...?

  It is my anecdotal experience that there is a large number of men or at least equal to those 'in the tour scene' who chose to use an agency for support and in the beginning to get started. Then later as the relationship progresses, they 'move away' from the agencies control and input in this process.

  As I'm sure you may 'know' or have deduced, there is a negative connotation towards 'tours' from both men and women. That's part of the reason why I asked. if your majority experience and 'interviews' etc.. had been with 'tours' and agencies only. You'd b missing out on the other 'silent' less publicized part of this equation.

ECR844

[jen]

Hi Turkey,

Wow, you guys come up with tough questions.

So that last one, I don't mean to evade it by giving a fuzzy answer, I just think it is a really tough one to answer in a "yes or no" kind of way.  What I can say is this: that in my line of work, I do a lot of reading and teaching thinking about women's (and men's) situations in different cultural contexts. Some of these are contexts easily defined as patriarchal, where women are understood to play a role that is subordinate to men's. For example, one of my favorite scholars writes about gender and other issues among the Bedouins of Egypt. It's difficult to see the situation she describes as anything but "unequal"; men and women have different degrees of autonomy and authority in this social world, which is also polygynous. But is it "oppressive" -- this is a more complex question since in many ways, the women too are invested in the notion of ideal womanhood as it tends to represented in their society, which includes ideas about upholding the honor of the family, obeying one's husband, etc. Coming in from outside and saying, "hey, you've got the wrong idea" can be very negative in my view; this is a debate within feminism I would say. I believe that part of the role of a social scientist like myself is to be sensitive to inequalities and how they structure people's lives. At the same time, and this is important, I am wary of any blanket definitions of what constitutes "oppression." 

OK, I am not comparing you guys to polygynists! In a roundabout way I guess I am getting at the question: do I believe that two people can be in an "old-fashioned" marriage that is viewed in the U.S. as "unequal" and be happy? I do.  That's not to say that I think all models are equally desirable, but I also do not think it is my place to determine what other women and men should want, particularly when their experiences differ from my own, and my intent is always to learn more about their perspectives before deciding what it all means.

Thanks for making me think. I hope this helps a bit.

p.s. Also to ecr844 -- I have to say that my experience with the tour was more positive than I would have imagined, although certainly I have heard complaints as well. I don't doubt that men who find the tours not to their taste may have some different perspectives on things...and I'd love to hear more about that from you all, which of course is why I am here.

[Turkey]

Inherent in the concept of 'inequality' is the notion that there is 'something' and that 'it' can be measured.

I tend to get an itch when I see 'moral relatavistic' arguements.  I can understand them from a 'rationally ignorant voter' concept but, when it comes to those issues where there is 'value' then the idea of value from undertaking the effort to correctly 'price' or to learn about the issue becomes pertinent.  I would argue that this is one such case where the 'rationally ignorant voter' does not apply.

If that is a given then one does necessarily make a 'value judgement' and in this case a judgment regarding whether or not a preconceived notion of 'equality' has been breached.  (In your example the Beduin women are unequal or have less 'power')  One of the issues I have with feminism is precisely this notion.  I can not think of a single relationship where there is not inequality, whether financial, domineering personality or personal insecurity (whether due to low self esteem, material or physical).  And in fact women are 'forced' by evolution to seek out inequality in financial relationships.

If you take the assumption that women are the mate selectors, and the assumption that we live in a serial monogamous society, then from a marriage and reproduction viewpoint women have a stronger position then men.  Does this inequality mean that men are being 'oppressed' (or are we ruled by benevolent women ?    ).  Seriously, though, I did want to point out that there is no such thing as a 'equal' relationship.

Why do I bring this up?  Well, there is this unfortunate impression by many that this process is one where the man 'buys' his wife.  It's horribly offensive and flat out wrong.  If a researcher comes into this with the view that unequal relationships defined by money, are inherently oppressive then one of their initial premises is logically incorrect and it will undermine the rest of their study. 

[TigerPaws]

jen, welcome,

Please do not be offended if some on this forum are very careful about what they say (myself included), some of us have had very negative experiences with "academics" like yourself. As a self proclaimed feminist you will not find me or my lady to be much of a friend, in my (and my ladies) humble opinion modern American feminism has pushed women to be more like men, ignoring what they are.

You may have been told this before but many American men have simply had it with American style feminism , the me, me, me attitude and the feeling that all to many American women do not need a man to be and act like a man. So a few brave men venture into the world of looking to a bride from the former Soviet Union (FSU) looking for something different in a lady to call their own.

Your questions are welcome but know that any preconceived notions will be challenged, hopefully without you feeling unwelcome and attacked.

TigerPaws
Aboard SeaQuest OE
A Lagoon 570 Catamaran
Docked at Freeport, Bahamas 

[jen]

Hi TigerPaws,

Well, I don't feel attacked so far. I am happy to be having the conversations and they have given me a lot to think about already!

I thought it was important to declare myself a feminist because, well, I do identify that way and I would not want to be dishonest about that. My own thought is that the "me me me attitude" you described (and which I have heard a lot about on various forums and from guys I've interviewed) is not equivalent to feminism, although it may be something you have encountered. I think that "feminism" is such a broad term it might not always be that useful. But I hope that my comments here are shedding a little bit of light on the fact that I don't share the preconceptions I think you are so frustrated with. For one thing, I'm not against this realm of activity -- just trying to understand it better.

To that end, I would definitely be interested to hear more about what you mean when you say that American feminism has pushed women to be more like men.

Also, to Turkey, I share your idea that the notion of there being "something" that can be measured in a relationship -- this being amounts of freedom or equality -- is a limited way to think about the variety of ways in which people relate to one another and find meaning in those relationships.

OK, I think I need to sign off for tonight. Thanks everyone.

[IAmZon]

Hi Jen and welcome!

I have found this discussion group to excellent for my purposes.  The topics and commentary are thought provoking and entertaining ...

I have noticed that the more I have read and the more I have thought about the "international marriage phenomena", the less I value the lens and perspectives through which it is viewed.  There are common themes to this boar, and men and women in general:

1, Age Gaps
2, League
3, Language Barriers
4, Role confusion
5, Exploitation on both sides

I look forward to seeing your thoughts on these subjects

[BillyB]

To that end, I would definitely be interested to hear more about what you mean when you say that American feminism has pushed women to be more like men.

Welcome Jen, the results pretty much tell all. Feminists, compared to non-feminist women wear less make up to look beautiful, do not wear dresses that much, place more emphasis on financial independence than financial reliance of a husband, place, on average, more importance on career than family and have less children etc.. Keep in mind, I'm not saying a feminist values her job more than her child but she values her job more than child compared to the non-feminist women.

What is your position on IMBRA that was lobbied hard by feminists? A good thing well crafted or bad thing with much to be desired?

[Nat]

Nat, how would you say that mentalities have changed there in 3 years? I don't doubt that they have, since things change there swiftly, but I'd be curious to hear what you think.

Well, since 2004 economic situation in Russia improved a lot. And not only economy – in general, people are not so pessimistic about Russia’s future any more. So I think now women need much more motivation to leave the country than earlier, especially if they live in big cities.

[TigerPaws]

Nat,

 I am going to agree and disagree with you on the economic reasons ladies are looking to leave. While I do agree that generally in the large cities things have improved in the more rural areas things have become much worse. We were in Perm, Saransk, Omsk and near Krasnoyarsk not long ago and life throughout rural Russia is still very difficult maybe more difficult than it was under Soviet rule.

We met many beautiful, intelligent and what one could call truly traditional Russian ladies between 19 and 35 who were single with little to no chance of ever being married because of the lack of available men. Most of the men have left for the oil fields or the big cities looking for work, additionally most of the ladies would like to go to the big cities but are being prevented from doing so by the Russian government.

TigerPaws

[catzenmouse]

I am going to agree and disagree with you on the economic reasons ladies are looking to leave. While I do agree that generally in the large cities things have improved in the more rural areas things have become much worse. We were in Perm, Saransk, Omsk and near Krasnoyarsk not long ago and life throughout rural Russia is still very difficult maybe more difficult than it was under Soviet rule.

Elena is in Omsk right now. She has seen just about every price double, and some triple, while wages stay stagnant (if you get paid at all). She told me she doesn't see how the people can continue to survive like that.

[Sohkay]

catz,

The same in Ukraine. I believe the government claimed annual inflation rate is running at around 10%, with the number in reality, on the front lines in the cities and villages running much, much higher. (Much like our U.S. unemployment numbers.) Typical pension is around 400hr ($80)/month. It's now not uncommon to see 250hr ($50) gas bills in the winter, leaving about $7.00/week for food, electricity, medication, etc.

[Mir]

Elena is in Omsk right now. She has seen just about every price double, and some triple, while wages stay stagnant (if you get paid at all). She told me she doesn't see how the people can continue to survive like that.

I am sure Kevina will disagree, she says FSU women earn enough to keep western men as sex slaves

[Sohkay]

Jennifer,
I briefly did a search on your name and found a syllabus from a course you taught at Bryn Mawr and Haverford in 2005. This is you, isn't it?

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/sci_cult/courses/sexgender/f05/syllabus.html

Part of the syllabus directs the students to the following questionaire.

What sexuality do you identify with?
I am married, for a while, but will sleep with pretty much anybody.  
I live with a gay man and have for 20 years, but I identify as a lesbian.  
Nobody knows what sexuality I am. I've lived in ways that are ambigious and choose to keep my sexuality private.  
I am heterosexual. I once believed that marriage equals prostitution, but ended up hitched.  
I am bisexual, but have had primary relationships with men. I lived with the same man for 11 years and he stole my soul.  
I am a lesbian (big time), but also a mom.  
I am a spinster. My sexuality is anybody's guess.  
I am a heterosexual. I am married, but we both kept our own names and struggle with the difficulties of having a sexual partnership between a man and womyn in a misogynist society.  
I am a heterosexual, married person. I have scads of children.  
I was engaged to a gay man, married a straight man, and had a public affair with a married womyn. It's ok, her husband's gay!  
I was married young, but we divorced. I pursued freedom and free seuxal relationships.  
I was with the same person for decades, but we never married. Sadly, for most of that time, we didn't have sex. We are many people's definition of "soulmate."  
I am queer. I participate in same-sex relationships, but "gay" or "lesbian" just isn't enough to describe me!  
I am sexually ambigious. Everyone thinks I'm a dyke, but I do date men. I probably date wymyn, too, but I might kick your ass if you keep asking questions.  
I am heterosexual, by most accounts.  
I am a lesbian, and have come out in my culture, which has been a challenge.

And then there's this section of the questionaire.

Men ... love 'em or leave 'em?
Eh ... thanks for the kid. I'm sure you do some good work, but ... I just don't care. I've got my girls over here. 
I used to really depend on men for emotional support and validation, but I eventually figured out that I can only depend on myself. 
I prefer the company of men, especially gay men. All the men in my life treat me as an equal. I am shocked when someone treats me as less. 
Men are comrades and they're fun in bed. 
A man is my soulmate, but in reality, I needed to separate myself from him to become whole. I was held back by both our intimacy and by a society that valued me less. 
Man is a subjective concept. I don't buy into this "man" "woman" thing. 
Men can come along, but there are times where they just gotta stand in the back. My space is womyn-space FIRST and foremost. 
Men are partners in the struggle, but there are times when men need to check their own privilege and not play the pain game. 
Let's not talk about men. I wanna talk about wymyn and why we're not listening to them. 
Men benefit from patriarchy. If they want to do something about it, I welcome them to, but I'm not here to hold their hands through it. 
Relationships between men and wymyn are based on domination. We have come to find this domination sexy. Wymyn need to define their sexuality for themselves. 
Men need to join wymyn in the struggle for equality. 
I think that often wymyn give up their power to be in a relationship with men. There ought to be a way to interact where men AND wymyn can retain their identity and voice. 
Men are in the way. I don't want to ask permission for my equality, but I kind of have to. 
Men need to listen to wymyn and educate themselves. They need to take their cues for action from the wymyn that experience oppression. Shut up and listen for once. 
Men and wymyn can have amazing relationships, but not until wymyn are allowed to realize their full potential.

This is taken from:
http://www.quizilla.com/users/belladonnalin/quizzes/Which%20Western%20feminist%20icon%20are%20you?/

Is this the type of "coursework" you are involved with?

One more thing. This morning a poster named joyce1323 put up a post that has since been deleted. It was a cynical post about women wearing mini skirts. Just a word of advice...if any of your women's studies colleagues/students are thinking about flaming this board with crap like that, don't expect to get much help from this community.

[jb]

Looked over the sites listed.

It's a shame that this crap passes for an education these days.

[Rvrwind]

It's a shame that this crap passes for an education these days.

You know jb, I red some of the questions that were asked of people that Sohkay posted & it brought back vivid memories of my last time in Canada when I had a tangle with a couple of, well to be a little politically correct "Blue Boys" as Jack calls them. Personally I have more vivid terms I prefer.
Anyway I digress. The basics of it were they were canvassing the neighbourhood collecting signatures on a petition allowing gays & lesbians to adopt children. Weeellll... I think you know me well enough to know my reaction to that.
I was was livid... here the Government & all the other SOB's were preaching against smoking & their favorite slogan was "Children See, Children Do" which makes perfect sense & I was not opposed to having the next generation smoke free but just leave me alone to kill myself in my own inevitable way.
What irked me the most that if "Children See, Children Do" & gays are allowed to adopt children what are the children learning? Personally with that thought I think I'd rather see them smoking!!
Then I read crap like this & think WTF!!
What is this world comin' to when instead of punishing the deviants & sickos we make what they do legal & give them the same rights as the rest of us.
Don't know about you all, but makes me wanna