researcher introduction

[Tristan]

Dan,

It is possible that some IMBRA supporters considered that the law would keep out competition, but a more likely explanation is that women's groups need to continue to expand their influence and they don't know where to stop.

For four decades our great social revolution has given new rights to women, often deservedly.  Women's groups have pushed for these new rights, often led by brilliant and determined leaders.

Although many of their original goals have been obtained, the leaders cannot find it possible to declare victory and then...dismantle their organizations.  Many of these leaders are trained for one thing: to be professional feminist leaders, and if they lost their jobs they would likely have to find employment in less remunerative and less prestigious occupations.  (I have one feminist friend who lost her job and she ended up as a school bus driver.)  Not many people look forward to such a situation. No one likes to give up power.

Consequently, these leaders look for new, innovative ways they can expand their organizations.  NOW and upstart Tahirih figured that if they can make a case against international marriages, they can exploit federal, foundation and corporate funding structures for funds to attack the marriages.  Tahirih has done quite well at this.  According to documents I obtained about their grant requests from the Department of Justice on FOIA requests, they get about $700K annually for their operations.  On their website they brag that their annual budget is $3M, so it seems that others give to them, too.

(Imagine you just got hired by NOW as a strategist.  Would you write an inter-office memo that women are nearly equal now and you recommend we lay off half the staff, or would you write a memo that details a way that men are abusing women that no one has yet thought of accompanied by a fundraising plan to hire more staff and fight the problem?  If you chose the first, you would be ostracized and perhaps fired, and if you chose the second you would be praised and viewed as a visionary.)

Moreover, during the years that IMBRA was planned, the groups cleverly calculated that (1) there is no industry group to speak up in Congress for this industry, (2) there is no lobbying group to represent lonely, middle-aged men, and (3) if they claimed that there is abuse and smeared the activity by wondering whether it is connected with sex trafficking, they could turn people off from even thinking about the subject but instead supporting any legislation to curtail it.

[BC]

We should probably develop a new thread to discuss more, the various positions with regard to IMBRA.

That said - my fundamental objection to IMBRA is that it does not, in fact, serve anyone's purpose. Further, it places limits and hurdles which interfere with fundamental freedoms - and, in fact, is probably unconstitutional in that it directly interferes with the implicit right of association.

The right of association does not necessarily apply to all types of human interaction.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=490&invol=19

and

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/roberts.html

make for interesting study material.

There are some other examples of limitations of freedom.. take for example fraternization in the military.  I know that the UCMJ is a bit quirky, but does it contradict the Constitution?..

How about the freedom to associate with a prostitute?  Why is one arrested only after a financial transaction or contract for such services?.. then ask why this law excludes entities that provide introduction services for free or are efforts of religious organizations..  I think the real quagmire lies herein.

Quite honestly, I believe a ruling in favour of an IMBRA plaintiff would have far reaching effects.. and some that the US is not ready to accept as morally conservative country.

At present the State is not imposing any restrictions whatsoever on the rights of an individual to meet and interact with anyone.. It is however restricting personal intercourse that occur via business transactions, something I fear will not go away soon..

I find it quite interesting, that in the end, it all seems to boil down to that seemingly 'nasty' combination of money and sex that is intolerable within US society.

I do think this subject deserves it's own thread..

Maybe call it 'P!$$!ng into the wind" 

 


p.s. Sorry... I just couldn't resist that last remark..

[jb]

Thank you, Tristan:

A most illuminating post.  If the newbie reads anything at all, this should be amongst the forefront.

As one of the OMBs, I never had to cross that bridge, my wife and I were married long before IMBRA became law.  However, the very idea that Russian women will hold still for physical abuse seems absurd to me, (if you believe that you just don't know my wife).   To the casual observer, IME, Russian women appear sweet and mild, but there is a layer of steel beneath that sweet exterior and they are more than capable of fending for themself.

If the researchers want to believe that men are exploiting these women and go with the trends we have seen from the feminist movement, I suppose that's just the nature of that beast, however,,, once again IME, it's the other way around.  Most of the RW/AM homes I've been to are dominated by the Russian woman, the husband is merely the titular head of the household. 

[KenC]

jb,
I have got to agree with you when you say:

However, the very idea that Russian women will hold still for physical abuse seems absurd to me, (if you believe that you just don't know my wife).   To the casual observer, IME, Russian women appear sweet and mild, but there is a layer of steel beneath that sweet exterior and they are more than capable of fending for themself.

But how does this explain the rampent physical abuse back in the fsu?  When Lena first came here she told me a "cute" Russian saying: "No beat, no love."  That really floored me.  There are some cultural differences in this area IMO.  RW come here conditioned from life in the fsu where the authorities do little if anything in domestic disputes and maybe that it is OK too.  It all is more than a little confusing to me, because as you, I could never think that my wife would ever stand for such behavior.  And then again, maybe that is one of the reasons they married Americans?
KenC

[jb]

Ken,

I have no direct knowledge about the levels of physical abuse in Russia.  I can only tell you that my wife says that if she were hit one time by a man, he would be shown the door immediately.  My own guess is that a RM may overstep the bounds of good behavior and suddenly find himself a divorced man in short order.  Divorce in Russia is a relatively quick, easy, and painless process, and also quite cheap by our standards.  I heard it costs only 80 Ru to file for a divorce at ZAGS.

 

[BC]

jb,

Here's something I ran across that surprised me.. can't judge the veracity of this info but some sources are referenced.

http://www.vitalvoices.org/files/docs/DV%20fact%20sheet.Problem.10.05.pdf

Among the most startling:

Russian women are 2.5 times more likely to be murdered by their partners than American women. However, American women are already twice as likely to be killed by their partners than women in Western European countries (UNICEF International Child Development Centre).

[KenC]

BC,
From your link:

Each year in Russia, about 14,000 women die at the hands of their husbands or intimate partners. In the United States, by comparison, this number stands at about 1,200, according to the 2001 Bureau of Justice Statistics Report. Russia's population is 144 million; the U.S. population is 293 million.
• Russian women are 2.5 times more likely to be murdered by their partners than American women.

The math here stumps me.  14,000 is much more than 2.5 times 1,200.

Regardless, these numbers do prove my point that RW come from a society where spousal abuse is prevalent.
KenC

[TigerPaws]

Spouse abuse is more than prevalent it is a way of life in Russia, women have little to no rights and the justice system is as corrupt as the governemnt.

It is but one of many reasons why women look to other countries for a better life.

TigerPaws

[BC]

BC,
From your link:The math here stumps me.  14,000 is much more than 2.5 times 1,200.

Regardless, these numbers do prove my point that RW come from a society where spousal abuse is prevalent.
KenC

Ken,

That document was compiled from different sources..

Add a lot of "YMMV"

In any case it's bad everywhere.

I think if compared at similar socio-economic levels it's probably quite even across the board.

It's how various countries deal with it that is the true problem.. Between FSU and USA we're talking totally opposite poles.. with neither working well.

[KenC]

I just asked Lena what she thought of the statistics quoted here.  She thinks that the disparity is due to the high level of alcoholism in Russia.  Makes sense to me.
KenC

[BC]

Spouse abuse is more than prevalent it is a way of life in Russia, women have little to no rights and the justice system is as corrupt as the governemnt.

It is but one of many reasons why women look to other countries for a better life.

TigerPaws

If it is a way of life in Russia I find it a bit surprising I did not see any great evidence during my stays there.  Do the vast majority of Russian men beat their wives?.. I think not.  OTOH  I'm sure a life sailing seas to exotic places in a little boat is much more of a motivational factor than DV.. - and would appeal to many women regardless of their country.. at least for a while.

[Turkey]

In N America, spousal abuse is an equal opportunity problem.  Our women are just as violent (or more)   

In Canada spousal abuse goes both ways:

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/ncfv-cnivf/familyviolence/html/mlintima_e.html

"almost equal proportions of men and women (7% and 8% respectively) had been the victims of intimate partner physical and psychological abuse (18% and 19% respectively). These findings were consistent with several earlier studies which reported equal rates of abuse by women and men in intimate relationships.2-16"

And in the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spousal_abuse

" but when they asked about specific behaviors ("have you been slapped, punched,...), the numbers evened out. Justice Department studies show that men are 32 percent less likely than women to report any form of violent victimization.

Straus and Gelles found in couples reporting spousal violence, 27 percent of the time the man struck the first blow; the woman in 24 percent. The rest of the time, the violence was mutual, with both partners brawling. "


Tristan:

In regards to your post, I completely agree.  Feminism initially espoused equality of opportunity and treatment under the law but has morphed into something much more unwieldy IMHO in the same way as the Civil Rights Movement.  It is no longer the aim of feminism to achieve equal opportunity but rather equal outcomes or better for the topic du jour.  I think it's because of this over reach that feminism has moved from something many people could support to 'just another special interest'.  I view feminism in the same mode as any other entity that one would study under public choice theory.  They, like other self interested agents seek to maximize their power, membership and funding with the result of adverse social affects such as rent seeking.

[TigerPaws]

If it is a way of life in Russia I find it a bit surprising I did not see any great evidence during my stays there.  Do the vast majority of Russian men beat their wives?.. I think not.

BC while I am only able to report what I have experienced and know of first hand, we travel to Russia at least 4 times a year for several weeks at a time mostly to the more rural areas and spouse abuse is all to common.

 OTOH  I'm sure a life sailing seas to exotic places in a little boat our vessel is a 57' Lagoon Catamaran which for the three of us is just the right size and something I am able to sail by my self if it becomes necessary during our travels.is much more of a motivational factor than DV.. - and would appeal to many women regardless of their country.. at least for a while. This will be our third year aboard SeaQuest OE and we are having a great deal of fun, if what we are doing is not longer interesting then we will do something else until then we will continue.

By-the-way we are planning on spending at least a month in Italy this hurricane seson.

TigerPaws

[BC]

By-the-way we are planning on spending at least a month in Italy this hurricane seson.

Well, be sure to drop in!~

[Rvrwind]

Quote from: TigerPaws on Today at 19:34:36
By-the-way we are planning on spending at least a month in Italy this hurricane seson.


Well, be sure to drop in!~

My advice...be sure you got good insurance!!

[TigerPaws]

My advice...be sure you got good insurance!!

Rvrwind,

 We use Lloyds of London because they have the best world wide coverage and service anywhere we would want to go with the fewest restrictions, your comment is interesting to us because we have not heard anything negative about traveling to Italy.

Is there something we should know?

TigerPaws

[BC]

Don't let RVR worry you..

No hurricanes here and plenty of parking space as you can see..

This one in for a couple of days last week..

[Ste]

If it is a way of life in Russia I find it a bit surprising I did not see any great evidence during my stays there.  Do the vast majority of Russian men beat their wives?.. I think not.  OTOH  I'm sure a life sailing seas to exotic places in a little boat is much more of a motivational factor than DV.. - and would appeal to many women regardless of their country.. at least for a while.

I agree, I find it surprising so many find these stereotypes to be true, maybe they are fishing the bottom of a dirty barrel.

 

[TigerPaws]

Thank you BC,

 We were in the Med last year and spent a little time in Italy which is why we want to go back for a month this time.

Yes we often give the stink pot drivers a hard time but it is all in good fun as there are times we would like those comforts. With a really big boat (over 60' for a Catamaran, and 75' for a power boat) you really need to have a crew and that is something we do not want. So we compromise on some of our comforts but really living here on SeaQuest OE is much like living in a fair sized 2 bedroom American apartment.

TigerPaws

[Rvrwind]

Is there something we should know?

Hey, your the one that mentioned hurricans!!
Me, I come from Tornado country so I know good insurance is a plus!

[jen]

Hi all,

Well I am back after a few days of respite.    Thanks for all of the support and discussion, and again, I completely understand why you guys would want to ask these questions.  I'm glad that the conversation led into some interesting exchanges about IMBRA, etc.

I do not have direct experience with domestic abuse issues in Russia, but -- despite what I agree to be the general fortitude of Russian women I have known -- the general understanding seems to be that it is common. Someone recently pointed me to a short article in More Magazine that cited a disturbingly high number for women killed by their Russian husbands. Whether it is a dependable number or not, I don't know, and I imagine that "dependable" numbers may not exist. Anyway, I'll track that down for you.

In the meantime, having forwarded on Dan's permission to be on this site to the committee that oversees research here at my institution, I have learned that it will take a week or two to have that officially approved. Thus I am going to wait until that comes through -- probably a week or two -- to post a new thread with specific questions. I will still be checking in should anyone have any more questions.

Admin, could you let me know where I should post my new thread when I do? I noticed that Ada's research was a separate section under the "Projects" heading. Should mine be there, too? I have read the long thread on her project, but I will read it all before posting more here so that we don't "reinvent the wheel," as it were.

Thanks again for the welcomes, everyone.

[Admin]

Hi all,

Well I am back after a few days of respite.    Thanks for all of the support and discussion, and again, I completely understand why you guys would want to ask these questions.  I'm glad that the conversation led into some interesting exchanges about IMBRA, etc.

I do not have direct experience with domestic abuse issues in Russia, but -- despite what I agree to be the general fortitude of Russian women I have known -- the general understanding seems to be that it is common. Someone recently pointed me to a short article in More Magazine that cited a disturbingly high number for women killed by their Russian husbands. Whether it is a dependable number or not, I don't know, and I imagine that "dependable" numbers may not exist. Anyway, I'll track that down for you.

In the meantime, having forwarded on Dan's permission to be on this site to the committee that oversees research here at my institution, I have learned that it will take a week or two to have that officially approved. Thus I am going to wait until that comes through -- probably a week or two -- to post a new thread with specific questions. I will still be checking in should anyone have any more questions.

Admin, could you let me know where I should post my new thread when I do? I noticed that Ada's research was a separate section under the "Projects" heading. Should mine be there, too? I have read the long thread on her project, but I will read it all before posting more here so that we don't "reinvent the wheel," as it were.

Thanks again for the welcomes, everyone.

Jen,

I think I will change the title of the forum for Ada's Research Project - to Research Projects. In that way, any researcher who visits will be have a dedicated forum where they are able to conduct their polls/questions/topics - they can see what has transpired before them - and any member participants will know, full well, the material being gathered there is likely to be cited and used in published works.

At the same time - if you see a topic anywhere on the board where you wish to participate - I think you will find that most will welcome your input and participation.

- Dan

[Bruno]

I think I will change the title of the forum for Ada's Research Project - to Research Projects. In that way, any researcher who visits will be have a dedicated forum where they are able to conduct their polls/questions/topics - they can see what has transpired before them - and any member participants will know, full well, the material being gathered there is likely to be cited and used in published works.

Good idea... and new researcher will understand why we can be suspicious about them...

Ada have learn the trust from a lot here... but she have dissappear without saying something !!!

Maybe the result of her question was not what she have really wish to find !!!

[jen]

Sounds good. And as it turns out, I spoke too soon -- I got my approval back today, very quickly. So, more tomorrow. Have a good night everyone, J.

[Simoni]

Sounds good. And as it turns out, I spoke too soon -- I got my approval back today, very quickly. So, more tomorrow. Have a good night everyone, J.

It's actually morning here in Ukraine, and I'm on my second cup of coffee