Reality Check - Wake Up Call - Alcoholism, Aids, Prostitution, etc., in Ukraine.

[FSUrookie]

Like others, I have found a wonderful woman in Ukraine to be my wife. However, the journey is certainly not without many risks.

I post this to be informative, as these are serious topics. Contrary to some on these forums who downplay the problems that exist in Ukraine, research shows that Alcoholism, Aids, Divorce, Abuse, Crime, Prostitution, Bribary, and Extorsion, to name a few, are actually on the rise and continue to grow in Ukraine. Sure, it is true that Ukraine and Russia and the FSU countries are not in the same situation as 10 or 15 years ago, however many feel that while communism was an overall failure, as least all were provided for to some extent, but as we know there is 2 sides to that story as well. Anyway, the New World Order is alive and well in Ukraine. And everywhere in the world those with the power and money strive for a world with 2 classes; Rich and Poor. With the middle class on the attack in America, as it has been for many years, Ukraine is a another good example of the 2 class system with very few in the middle class. As for those men who go to Ukraine for sex, a strong word of caution; according to statistics from the UN and WHO, Ukraine has the fastest growing rate of HIV infection in the world! Of course, to be fair, America and any other country in the world also have their own problems, and many seem to ignore the dangers that are everpresent...
Anyway, here are some interesting articles regarding Ukraine...

One word of caution to those who have weak stomachs; Some of the news articles and factual research at a few of the links below are very upsetting and perhaps may be somewhat surprising to those who have a vision of Ukraine that sees only pretty women in nice cloths with no worries, and the building of $300,000 homes (though they are mainly for the very rich) in poor areas.....

Lyudmila Les, a 43-year-old nursery school teacher, sums up the situation in Ukraine very well: While she clutched her head as she struggled to find words for her frustration, she said; "Sometimes it almost seems as though the mafia has come to power".

AIDS: www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2006/460601.shtml
AIDS: www.reuters.com/news/video/videoStory?videoId=39364
Alcoholism: www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-05-18-ukraine-kids_N.htm
Child Prostitution: http://eng.for-ua.com/news/2007/03/22/130101.html
Sale of Children: http://en.for-ua.com/news/2006/10/27/152155.html
Prostitution: www.ansarburney.org/news/n90.html
Human Trafficking: www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2007/090703.shtml
Middle Class: www.kyivpost.com/nation/26921
Human Rights Report: www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61682.htm
Human Rights abuses: http://hrw.org/reports/2006/ukraine0306/
Ukraine is Dying?: www.ukraine-observer.com/articles/198/437
Social Problems: www.markflowers.com/photojournalism/ukraine_social_problems/ukraine_social_problems.html
Corruption in Education: www.tol.cz/look/TOL/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=178&NrSection=2&NrArticle=17426
Bribes to pass college exams: www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/06/17/ukraine-want-an-a-pay-30/
Corruption and Bribes: http://www2.volstate.edu/kbell/Articles/corruption_in_ukraine.htm
Religious Freedoms: www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51588.htm
Ukraine torn by broken promises: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4386254.stm

[Mir]

those who have a vision of Ukraine that sees only pretty women in nice cloths with no worries.....

Anyone with any sense knows that these women have lots of worries, that is precisely reason why they place their adverts on websites frequented by foreign men in the hope of leaving their country for a better life.

[BC]

Anyone with any sense knows that these women have lots of worries, that is precisely reason why they place their adverts on websites frequented by foreign men in the hope of leaving their country for a better life.

The thing many women (and the men involved) do not realize though is that a 'geographic cure' does not usually work out well in the end.

If 'running away' is considered a method of solving problems, it just might happen.. in ways you least expect.

Don't tolerate it.. find women with better motivations.. woo those that don't want to leave instead.

[I/O]

woo those that don't want to leave instead.

BC: I must be comming down with a fever I think.  This is three times in a row I have wholeheartedly agreed with you.  My arguement being the less inclind to move they are, they more likely they will be to stick with who they have decided to move with. I don't like "Runners" of any sort.

I/O

[Mir]

The ones who are not inclined to move will not put adds on websites aimed at foreign men (although they might do it if they are looking for a short term relationship rather then marriage)

[Kuna]

The ones who are not inclined to move will not put adds on websites aimed at foreign men (although they might do it if they are looking for a short term relationship rather then marriage)

I'm sorry mir... I don't agree with this statement.

Even though I was writing to several women who probably wanted to "escape" - the ones I chose to meet were the ones who were generally happy in their lives BUT still hadn't found a reliable man to settle down with...

It might be an age thing because all of the girls I met were around 30 years of age (I'm 38) and I noticed in a recent post of your that a recent gf you had was 22 (I'm not sure how old you are???).

Perhaps at 22 a girl might be desperate to escape but if a girl is successful in her career and happy in her life she may be prepared to leave her home, friends and family...  but she probably won't be HAPPY to leave.

My Girl and I talked at length about where we would live and why... She knows it will be better to marry and raise children in Australia but it doesn't stop her being apprehensive about leaving her home permanently.

She's lived in Germany for 2 years so she understands how difficult it is... She's extremely proud of her country and heritage though.

I think we will end up living in Ukraine at some point in the future but our first goal is to marry here and raise children in Oz...

Not ALL girls want to escape... and those that do might end up being higher risk than those who are genuinely happy with their homes, friends and family.

Again I guess it comes back to a ladies motivation.  there's all types out there and we can choose who we pursue.

Best of luck in your search.

Kuna

[TigerPaws]

A ladies motivations to find a man from another country are as numerous as their are ladies, so it is up to the man to discover or at least understand what the motivations of the ladies he is interested in are. You will find any real answers here, the best anyone will be able to offer is suggestions as to how to seek this information.

TigerPaws

[Mir]

there's all types out there and we can choose who we pursue.

True, still the majority looking for a mate overseas know that if they find one in this group most likely they will have to leave. So in some ways they are accepting this possibility when they respond to men from oversees looking for a wife.
I am same age as you, the girl I wrote about is fiercely patriotic and does not want to leave Ukraine and her friends. She did not place her advert on a site looking for marriage.

[TigerPaws]

Mir,

Ok so you have a few choices, your lady is not interested in leaving so you stay in her country or she decides you are worth leaving and she moves to your country, lastly she will not leave and you will not move so you look for another lady.

Seems simple to me.

TigerPaws

[Mir]

Yes it was sorted several months ago and is not an ongoing problem

[TigerPaws]

Yes it was sorted several months ago and is not an ongoing problem

Mir,

That is great, the point is the choices are limited, personally I am happy for you that things worked out but that is not always the case.

TigerPaws

[Mir]

Things worked out in the way that we went our separate ways.
The point was not this relationship but that in general women who look for husbands abroad are inclined to move to far off lands.

[TigerPaws]

Things worked out in the way that we went our separate ways.
The point was not this relationship but that in general women who look for husbands abroad are inclined to move to far off lands.

Ah! I understand, ok time to move on to the next lady and try again.

TigerPaws

[ecr844]

Like others, I have found a wonderful woman in Ukraine to be my wife. However, the journey is certainly not without many risks.

I post this to be informative, as these are serious topics. Contrary to some on these forums who downplay the problems that exist in Ukraine, research shows that Alcoholism, Aids, Divorce, Abuse, Crime, Prostitution, Bribary, and Extorsion, to name a few, are actually on the rise and continue to grow in Ukraine. Sure, it is true that Ukraine and Russia and the FSU countries are not in the same situation as 10 or 15 years ago, however many feel that while communism was an overall failure, as least all were provided for to some extent, but as we know there is 2 sides to that story as well. Anyway, the New World Order is alive and well in Ukraine. And everywhere in the world those with the power and money strive for a world with 2 classes; Rich and Poor. With the middle class on the attack in America, as it has been for many years, Ukraine is a another good example of the 2 class system with very few in the middle class. As for those men who go to Ukraine for sex, a strong word of caution; according to statistics from the UN and WHO, Ukraine has the fastest growing rate of HIV infection in the world! Of course, to be fair, America and any other country in the world also have their own problems, and many seem to ignore the dangers that are everpresent...
Anyway, here are some interesting articles regarding Ukraine...

One word of caution to those who have weak stomachs; Some of the news articles and factual research at a few of the links below are very upsetting and perhaps may be somewhat surprising to those who have a vision of Ukraine that sees only pretty women in nice cloths with no worries, and the building of $300,000 homes (though they are mainly for the very rich) in poor areas.....

Lyudmila Les, a 43-year-old nursery school teacher, sums up the situation in Ukraine very well: While she clutched her head as she struggled to find words for her frustration, she said; "Sometimes it almost seems as though the mafia has come to power".

AIDS: www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2006/460601.shtml
AIDS: www.reuters.com/news/video/videoStory?videoId=39364
Alcoholism: www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-05-18-ukraine-kids_N.htm
Child Prostitution: http://eng.for-ua.com/news/2007/03/22/130101.html
Sale of Children: http://en.for-ua.com/news/2006/10/27/152155.html
Prostitution: www.ansarburney.org/news/n90.html
Human Trafficking: www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2007/090703.shtml
Middle Class: www.kyivpost.com/nation/26921
Human Rights Report: www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61682.htm
Human Rights abuses: http://hrw.org/reports/2006/ukraine0306/
Ukraine is Dying?: www.ukraine-observer.com/articles/198/437
Social Problems: www.markflowers.com/photojournalism/ukraine_social_problems/ukraine_social_problems.html
Corruption in Education: www.tol.cz/look/TOL/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=178&NrSection=2&NrArticle=17426
Bribes to pass college exams: www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/06/17/ukraine-want-an-a-pay-30/
Corruption and Bribes: http://www2.volstate.edu/kbell/Articles/corruption_in_ukraine.htm
Religious Freedoms: www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51588.htm
Ukraine torn by broken promises: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4386254.stm

Welcome to RWD! I hate to burst your 'bubble', but nearly everyone of these issues exist right here in the US. I see and deal with them on a near daily basis, ands there are many others here who do so as well. As with everything, if you go looking for trouble you will find it.

Best wishes,
ECR844

[Rvrwind]

The ones who are not inclined to move will not put adds on websites aimed at foreign men (although they might do it if they are looking for a short term relationship rather then marriage)

I also disagree with this statement.
I met my wife through an agency & although she knew she wanted a foreign husband, leaving her family, friends & life behind was not her top priority. Why do you think I moved to Russia in the first place? I should rephrase that & say it was part of the reason why I moved here instead of packing her off to the Great White North!!  Because she really didn't want to leave if she could avoid it, she is still hesitant but much more accepting of it now that she knows me much better,  .
Plenty of ladies do not look for a foreign man solely to get out, but more to find a better man than they can here. Believe it or not western men are known for treating women with more respect & esteem than any Russian man ever will.
To say this

The ones who are not inclined to move will not put adds on websites aimed at foreign men

is ludicrous at best!

[WmGO]

Welcome to RWD! I hate to burst your 'bubble', but nearly everyone of these issues exist right here in the US.

Hate to burst *your* bubble but these problems are 1000 times more prevalent in Russia and Ukraine than the U.S. or Western Europe. That is something WM need to know and understand about FSU. WM do *not* need to be going in with blinders on. And they *do* need to know as much about FSU history, culture, sociology and reality as possible. That is why FSURookie's post is a good one.

[ecr844]

Hate to burst *your* bubble but these problems are 1000 times more prevalent in Russia and Ukraine than the U.S. or Western Europe. That is something WM need to know and understand about FSU. WM do *not* need to be going in with blinders on. And they *do* need to know as much about FSU history, culture, sociology and reality as possible. That is why FSURookie's post is a good one.

Where did I say differently "Wmgo,"? I didn't say anywhere that this was either irrelevant and or unimportant. Although it is far from an earth shattering revelation either. My <unstated> point was that we have such things here in the US, so what would give anyone the idea that they don't exist in the FSU?. Anyone who thinks they are coming from the mecca of 'utopic society' when going to the FSU from wherever they live now is delusional at best....   

[joe rockhead]

The long and short of it is that we are dealing with the human race here and it can be pretty ugly anywhere you.  It is important that we all know about "social ills" and be part of the solution, not the problem.

[Shadow]

With the high crime rate, the control by mafia, prostitution and corruption, there is one thing which I wonder about.
How is it possible that in the main cities of Ukraine and Russia it actually feels and looks more safe than in the main cities of many Western countries, including the USA ?
The 'bursting bubbles' discussion sounds like the prisoner who was missing some personal stuff and went to the director to tell him there were thieves in his prison. 

If being involved in one of the topics the OP mentioned is reason for your woman to put her ad on a marriage site, my opinion is that you better move on.

[groovlstk]

With the high crime rate, the control by mafia, prostitution and corruption, there is one thing which I wonder about.
How is it possible that in the main cities of Ukraine and Russia it actually feels and looks more safe than in the main cities of many Western countries, including the USA ?

Maybe because 99% of the people you see walking the streets are Caucasian?

I've seen a lot of posts wherein guys state they "felt safer" walking the streets of Kiev or Moscow late at night than they did in the US. Of course US cities and individual neighborhoods vary enormously (can you compare walking through Compton to walking in Times Square, for instance?) I believe their enthusiasm is a mix of boosterism and naivete. Boosterism in the sense that we all have to deal with misinformed people in our home countries who think there are mafia gunfights everywhere in Russia or that people outside the major cities live in mud huts and eat potatoes and vodka (and the occasional tourist) for breakfast, lunch, & dinner. So we're inclined to stress the better aspects of life in the FSU to counter this ignorance. I see this in another thread in which someone cited FSU AIDS stats, slave trafficking, etc., and was attacked. It's tough to find a proper balance but there's no reason to get defensive - it's like preaching to the choir.

 

[Shadow]

Maybe because 99% of the people you see walking the streets are Caucasian?

Ever told a Russian in Moscow that white people are called 'Caucasian'  in the USA ?

Colour of skin does not change my behaviour or feeling. I was brought up in an environment of 35 nationalities, and have no trouble driving through local neighbourhoods that other people would call 'unsafe' because of the many immigrants.

The feelings of safety come from a more open and natural behaviour of people. If you see groups on the street, you will immediately see and sense their nature, and mostly the nature is friendly. And perhaps, without it being a direct factor, the presence of uniforms almost everywhere does help as well.

[groovlstk]

Ever told a Russian in Moscow that white people are called 'Caucasian'  in the USA ?

Indeed I have.

Colour of skin does not change my behaviour or feeling. I was brought up in an environment of 35 nationalities, and have no trouble driving through local neighbourhoods that other people would call 'unsafe' because of the many immigrants.

The feelings of safety come from a more open and natural behaviour of people. If you see groups on the street, you will immediately see and sense their nature, and mostly the nature is friendly. And perhaps, without it being a direct factor, the presence of uniforms almost everywhere does help as well.

That may be 100% true, but I still counter that this "feeling" of safety is based more on illusion than reality.

[Shadow]

Indeed I have.

That may be 100% true, but I still counter that this "feeling" of safety is based more on illusion than reality.

It might be an illusion, but it is one that seems to work for me. I have in the past made it my habit to visit big cities, so I have material to compare with. List ? Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam, Utrecht, Köln, Düsseldorf, Frankfurt, Nürnberg, München, Paris, Perpignan, Lyon, London, Birmingham, Cambridge, Manchester, Madrid, Barcelona, Lisboa, Roma, Milano, Firenze, Bologna, Kobenhavn, Gothernborg, Oslo, Buenos Aires, Rosario, Istanbul, Ankara, New York, Atlanta, Kiev, Moscow.

Comparing these cities for the 'illusion' of safety, Kiev and Moscow are in the top 5.

[groovlstk]

Comparing these cities for the 'illusion' of safety, Kiev and Moscow are in the top 5.

One thing there's no illusion about: It's mighty safe once you're in your flat, behind a currogated steel door 

[Shadow]

One thing there's no illusion about: It's mighty safe once you're in your flat, behind a currogated steel door 

Actually that is the illusion. Often the hinges are on the outside, and the fire escape goes right down to street level.