Guess This is an "Opinion" Rather than an Article... Still...

[Admin]

Circa 2002 - this time the author is somehow connected to Harvard. Sad - really sad that a prestigious institution would allow this sort of tripe to have their moniker in any way attached.

Some quotations for your reading pleasure: 

An INS study by Robert J. Shocles of Indiana University on the mail-order bride industry estimates that it currently exploits between 100,000 and 150,000 women from various countries, particularly Southeast Asia and the former Soviet Union.

For those who care, the author's name is "Scholes" and you can find his report here, as part of a now rescinded INS Act of 1996 -- http://www.planet-love.com/index.php?pid=4

In his study, Shocles also found that the mail-order bride industry attracts a homogenous clientele: customers are generally white and much older than the women they seek. They are well educated, ideologically conservative, and economically successful. They say that they look for foreign wives because American women today are too career-oriented and lack “traditional values.” They want women who will stay home and care for their husband and children. In other words, men looking for women through this industry essentially want wives they can control. Lloyd affirms that these men feed on the “stereotypes of Asian women as subservient and docile.” The easiest way for these men to guarantee a marriage in which they have total control is to obtain a mail-order bride. The very fact that they pick their women through purchasing their contact information indicates that they are hungry for a sense of ownership.

Although national figures on abuse in mail-order bride marriages do not exist, there is reason to believe that the incidence of abuse is high. American law enforcement officials agree that abuse in these marriages can be expected based on these men's need for control in their relationships. Many individual stories reinforce this claim. Sometimes the abuse ends in murder.

Despite incidents like these, mail-order bride companies proudly claim that marriages arranged through their services have a lower-than-average divorce rate. Perhaps so, but it is doubtful that all these marriages are happy. Indeed, it is likely that many of these marriages are unhappy, but the women are unable or afraid to escape because they do not have the resources to leave their husbands.

Even the strictest regulations, however, fail to address the fundamental problem of the mail-order bride industry. It is a form of sexual exploitation that is no different from prostitution. In fact, it may even be worse than prostitution because the marriage contract and immigration laws give it a more permanent nature. Impoverished women surrender their lives and sexuality because they hope to obtain economic security-but their dreams for a better life often turn into the cruelest nightmares.

  THAT was a balanced perspective - NOT !

[jb]

this time the author is somehow connected to Harvard. Sad - really sad that a prestigious institution would allow this sort of tripe to have their moniker in any way attached.

Harvard schools of Medicine, Business, and Law are without peer, the rest is a collection of left wing loonies who pervert the concept of higher education.

Just my humble opinion.

[Shadow]

His opinion seems very well balanced and he has a clear view of the people that are seeking to find marraige abroad.  
I think we can value his opinion on the same level as 'agency hype'.

[Mir]

A lot has and is written about the psyche, motivation, tactics etc. of men who look for a MOB, yet not much research or openion is available about the women who decide that they are going to become a MOB.

[Wayne B]

Dan, for Mr Dickinhead, I would say.....unless you have been there and done that....so much for your 'I really don't know what the hell I am talking about'....and there for...stay in tune to CNN, New Jerk You Off Times or the Houston Chronies....which none could support a woman from the FSU.....why? you ask......that is akin to asking a man....why he is GAY....

[jb]

I guess I'll have to ask my wife how she feels about being a sexually exploited mail order bride.  I'll do that tonight, since I'm a comfortable 350 miles from home on a job.  If I asked her such a foolish question face-to-face I'd risk bodily harm.

[BC]

I guess one could look at it this way:

Researchers write what they see and interpret, we here could do the same.  In the end though, neither would have valid statistics and can only present a very subjective view of the entire MOB scene from our respective 'angle'.

Who's right?, nobody. Who's wrong, nobody.

I can imagine a researcher that visits agency sites, hooks up with a couple socials, overhears guys conversations on the plane, not even knowing that a small group of individuals represented here even exists , can only come to conclusions like those in this report.

Quite honestly, I would much prefer that the general population are not encouraged to seek foreign brides.  If negative sounding 'research' serves this purpose, no big deal imho.. more good than harm done.

Lets not forget.. we are truly but a handful in the overall scheme of things.  I would be quite content if a researcher even mentions us.

Yes, until someone gets really serious, invests a few million bucks to really get to the bottom, it is and will remain only opinion and not true research.

[catzenmouse]

I guess I'll have to ask my wife how she feels about being a sexually exploited mail order bride.  I'll do that tonight, since I'm a comfortable 350 miles from home on a job.  If I asked her such a foolish question face-to-face I'd risk bodily harm.

Heck JB, I thought you were the sexually exploited one! 

I find it quite interesting when I can find a picture of these "researchers" that most often it is hard to tell if it is a man or a woman. They've done a great job of killing any femininity they had with their bitterness and negative agenda lifestyle.

Really do hope that Jen will end up being who she has represented herself as so far. Would be almost a miracle to actually see an unbiased paper published. Only time will tell.

Ken

[ecr844]

A lot has and is written about the psyche, motivation, tactics etc. of men who look for a MOB, yet not much research or openion is available about the women who decide that they are going to become a MOB.

Let's take a look at this another way. Do we ever hear about the American WOMEN who go through this process and marry FOREIGN MEN? Wouldn't they fall under the same umbrella...? Is anyone here aware of studies or literature which point to their pursuits in a similar light?
Food for thought,
ECR844

[Bruno]

Impoverished women surrender their lives and sexuality because they hope to obtain economic security-but their dreams for a better life often turn into the cruelest nightmares.

It is specialy true with local women too... so much marry a guy that they don't love but who have big car, big house, big bank account...

So, i don't see why men are guilty since it is the lust for money from women who put the women in so situation... if the intention of the women was honest, i mean a relationship based on love, it will not be a nightware...

For us, it is a nightware to find a woman with honest intention... i am really lucky to be a poor man, without a lot of money... if a woman accept to marry me, it will not be for money... ouchhhh... in case of "MOB", it can be for a green card... but same in so case, who is guilty ? Who have the non honest intention...

Maybe it is time to speak about laws who will stop the exploitation of men by women !!!

[sensei]

Interesting "reverse" research questions.

ecr844:

Do we ever hear about the American WOMEN who go through this process and marry FOREIGN MEN?

Unfortunately, no. Only one word comes to mind: selfish. What I mean is that the AW simply do not have the time, energy and effort to pursue foreign men for marriage and happiness.

Wouldn't they fall under the same umbrella...?

Possibly, yes.

Is anyone here aware of studies or literature which point to their pursuits in a similar light?

No, I don't think there are any studies or literature in regarding to AW pursuing foreign men.

~ sensei

[groovlstk]

Interesting "reverse" research questions.

ecr844:Unfortunately, no. Only one word comes to mind: selfish. What I mean is that the AW simply do not have the time, energy and effort to pursue foreign men for marriage and happiness.
Possibly, yes.
No, I don't think there are any studies or literature in regarding to AW pursuing foreign men.

~ sensei

Believe it or not there ARE a significant number of Western women looking for foreign husbands. I've been reading Visajourney regularly since last June, just before I filed my K1 petition. There seem to be many 40-50 year old women there who have filed K1s for foreign men, mostly Arabs (and mostly from Egypt). Most of the women are 10+ years older than the men. I have no statistics but there are discussion groups for such women and I'd be curious to hear their motivation.

My first thought was, "those men are going to bail on their woman the moment they get their green card." Then I realized that most people without any knowledge of international relationships will assume the same thing about us...

That said, there is no doubt in my mind these women would be portrayed in a very sympathetic light in both popular media and academia. You only need to look at the growing sex tour industry for women and how it's depicted in various media. Invariably the women are shown as sophisticated and tender, and their inability to meet their needs locally is seen as very, very, very slightly pathetic. (Even the venerable Pravda did a piece on it, recently:
http://english.pravda.ru/society/sex/29-06-2007/94318-sex_tourism-0). There was last year's movie, Heading South, about a group of 40ish female sex tourists who travel to Haiti. The NY Times reviewer wrote that "[the female sex tourists'] relationships with their young lovers are more tender and nourishing than overtly crass."

Can you imagine someone making a sensitive movie about male sex tourists?

[jb]

There seem to be many 40-50 year old women there who have filed K1s for foreign men, mostly Arabs (and mostly from Egypt). Most of the women are 10+ years older than the men.

My guess is that these are the men who will strap on a dynamite vest and blow up something to make a political point.  I don't believe importing an arab is a good idea,,, but who am I to say anything against the feminist agenda...

[ecr844]

My guess is that these are the men who will strap on a dynamite vest and blow up something to make a political point.  I don't believe importing an arab is a good idea,,, but who am I to say anything against the feminist agenda...

"JB, and everyone"


As far as the importation of Arab's. Not all muslims are militant, nor are they terrible people. That being said, it heeds remembering that in more recent times;

Not all muslims are terrorists but thus far nearly all of the terrorists have been muslims.

The feminist agenda becomes plainly apparent in it's hypocacy and the 'Do as we say not as we do attitude.' Why would they highlight WOMEN who are doing the same thing we are. They are obviously WOMEN and thus above reproach and or warrant a blind eye in the pursuit of the 'bigger evil' those MEN who are pursuing foreign spouces...

[Bruno]

There seem to be many 40-50 year old women there who have filed K1s for foreign men, mostly Arabs (and mostly from Egypt). Most of the women are 10+ years older than the men.

My guess is that these are the men who will strap on a dynamite vest and blow up something to make a political point.  I don't believe importing an arab is a good idea,,, but who am I to say anything against the feminist agenda...

My guess is that these are the men who will strap on a dynamite vest and blow up something to make a political point.  I don't believe importing an arab is a good idea,,, but who am I to say anything against the feminist agenda...

Recently, i have read in newspaper that a woman, politic figure in UK, have married in Egypt the 4th son from our well know Ben Laden... of course, big difference of age... and she complain that she know difficulty for bring her new husband to UK... for information, she is only the second wife... and she have no problem to share her new husband with the first wife... not really something that feminist will like !

[Kuna]

Quote
In his study, Shocles also found that the mail-order bride industry attracts a homogenous clientele: customers are generally white and much older than the women they seek. They are well educated, ideologically conservative, and economically successful. They say that they look for foreign wives because American women today are too career-oriented and lack “traditional values.”

They want women who will stay home and care for their husband and children.


In other words, men looking for women through this industry essentially want wives they can control. Lloyd affirms that these men feed on the “stereotypes of Asian women as subservient and docile.” The easiest way for these men to guarantee a marriage in which they have total control is to obtain a mail-order bride. The very fact that they pick their women through purchasing their contact information indicates that they are hungry for a sense of ownership.

Well...  if I were totally honest I think there are MANY men that fit the section I've highlighted in bold.

Let's be honest... many men end up marrying women FAR more attractive than they could marry at home.  Is that bad???  That's up to the individual to decide.  Something I suspect is that a man who is unrealistic, or uses money or materialistic means to secure such a wife may entering a high risk relationship.


The stuff in italics is an option some men CAN offer their FSUW but if the assertions in bold are true it seems the man has the means to offer this...  Does such a man also offer his AW the same option?

The rest of it is just the bitter and twisted ravings of someone with an agenda... BUT I believe there are certain dysfunctional men on this journey and God help the women if they marry one of them.  I believ there IS sexual exploitation and I believe the intentions of SOME people on both sides are not genuine...  That is why both men AND women need good representation, advice and information through a peer group because most of the agencies wouldn't give a damn about the womans welfare.

[BC]

The rest of it is just the bitter and twisted ravings of someone with an agenda... BUT I believe there are certain dysfunctional men on this journey and God help the women if they marry one of them.  I believ there IS sexual exploitation and I believe the intentions of SOME people on both sides are not genuine...  That is why both men AND women need good representation, advice and information through a peer group because most of the agencies wouldn't give a damn about the womans welfare.

What percentage would you give wheat, and what percentage chaff.. not to those on this board but overall?

[groovlstk]

The sad thing is that GOOD researchers salivate when they see an opportunity to turn conventional wisdom - or whatever passes for the body of work that precedes them - upside down. It's the sort of thing that can provoke excited debates within their discipline and launch or define a career.
 
In looking at the work Dan has linked to, the industry has attracted mostly second-raters and sycophants looking to take the path of least resistance.

[Bruno]

... BUT I believe there are certain dysfunctional men on this journey and God help the women if they marry one of them.

Kuma... don't believe... it is a fact...

I was two time agency owner... in 1997 and 2005... what a change in the "quality" of men between these two date... fact that now internet is cheaper that a "Piva", have allow some low quality people to reach the RW....

It is funny but all these feminist article publish in newspaper have only make the situation worse... now, people read that men "buy" a "submissive" and "sexy" wife in FSU... it is wrote on plenty of feminist site... now, when a sex tourist, a man seeking a domestic slave read so article, he think that ladies from FSU are what he seek !!!

It is a normal human reaction... in similar way, when i was in Navy, and when we was in a port... we receive a list from all place who was not recommended to go ( hooker place, cafe with fight, etc )... of course, it was the first place we was going...

Same think with so article... showing that we are sex tourist, slave seeker, etc... will only guide more "not normal" guys to FSU...

Ask Richard... he have already refused customer because they was too much dysfunctional ( few agency make so since what count is the money )...

Now, you have a lot of lower quality men on the way to FSU... it is a fact... when i speak about lower quality, i don't mean finnacial or social level but more guy who try to make exploitation of RW in any form is possible ( prostitution, home slave, personal sex slave, etc... )

About God help... until now, he have never help... only the hated ladies from "antidate"  help partially... some story there are really scary... guy's with sexual hillness who go to FSU for fµck without comdom... go who go there, say that they have loose the wallet with bank card, and where the lady pay everything during the stay ( almost free holiday )...

Same here, remember the Pike story... easy to check it if you have forget since it will always be a the top of the first page of the trip report... any researcher simply ready the forum without participate will first see these story... and it will give a bad image of us, the normal one...

[Kuna]

What percentage would you give wheat, and what percentage chaff.. not to those on this board but overall?

BC,

Now that is one stat that would be impossible to get reliable data on....

From my personal experience on my first trip I met (*counting*) 9 men that were in Kiev specifically looking for marriage.  Out of those 9 I would be happy to introduce maybe 5 to my friends at home as a "good bloke".

Of those five I would say four were completely unprepared for the trip in that they'd joined an agency and were heading off on a great adventure without any idea what they were doing...  That didn't make them "dysfunctional" though I think it is likely they were wasting their time and the ladies time.  A few just had no clue!

Of the other four I'd label one as a blatant sex tourist... been to FSU several times and bragged about all the cheap sex he was getting through the dating sites.  He was proud to tell how he would lie to the women "because they want to believe it". Incidentally he LOOKED like a pimp and I'm sure he got rejected a lot...  all he needs is a few desperate women and he'd get his annual jollies for the cost of an airfare and a bit for accommodation...

The other three might say they were open to marriage but I don't think they were serious...  two freely admitted to using hookers while on their "marriage trip" and one was just sleazy... I didn't even spend time talking to him.

By the way... I met several REALLY well adjusted and upstanding ex-pats living there.  Their perspective on UW was TOTALLY different to the opinions you'll read in here.  Talking to them opened my eyes on who might be honest and who might not be...

Kuna

[Phil dAmore]

m

They say that they look for foreign wives because American women today are too career-oriented and lack “traditional values.” They want women who will stay home and care for their husband and children. In other words, men looking for women through this industry essentially want wives they can control.

Exactly how does the author come to this conclusion?  This is pure speculation.

While there may be some men who are overly controlling I believe that the vast majority are just looking for a good woman to share their lives with.

[BC]

BC,

Now that is one stat that would be impossible to get reliable data on....

From my personal experience on my first trip I met (*counting*) 9 men that were in Kiev specifically looking for marriage.  Out of those 9 I would be happy to introduce maybe 5 to my friends at home as a "good bloke".

Of those five I would say four were completely unprepared for the trip in that they'd joined an agency and were heading off on a great adventure without any idea what they were doing...  That didn't make them "dysfunctional" though I think it is likely they were wasting their time and the ladies time.  A few just had no clue!

Of the other four I'd label one as a blatant sex tourist... been to FSU several times and bragged about all the cheap sex he was getting through the dating sites.  He was proud to tell how he would lie to the women "because they want to believe it". Incidentally he LOOKED like a pimp and I'm sure he got rejected a lot...  all he needs is a few desperate women and he'd get his annual jollies for the cost of an airfare and a bit for accommodation...

The other three might say they were open to marriage but I don't think they were serious...  two freely admitted to using hookers while on their "marriage trip" and one was just sleazy... I didn't even spend time talking to him.

By the way... I met several REALLY well adjusted and upstanding ex-pats living there.  Their perspective on UW was TOTALLY different to the opinions you'll read in here.  Talking to them opened my eyes on who might be honest and who might not be...

Kuna

I guess we could interpret your experience to say that you and another guy were the only ones with a clue and decent intentions.  Considering 90% to 95% of guys interested in this venture never make it, as a whole, that amounts to little more than 1%.

So.. does this mean that the researchers that write reports about the MOB scene (that we object to), as a whole, are 99% correct in their assessments?

Just throwing the numbers out there but I think there are some thoughts in this direction to chew on..

[jen]

By the way... I met several REALLY well adjusted and upstanding ex-pats living there.  Their perspective on UW was TOTALLY different to the opinions you'll read in here.  Talking to them opened my eyes on who might be honest and who might not be...

Kuna

Could you say more about that? What was totally different about the expats' opinions, views you don't read here?

[BC]

Could you say more about that? What was totally different about the expats' opinions, views you don't read here?

I can't comment on FSU, but as a long term expat there is a great difference between being a tourist or short stay and really living in another country.

It would be interesting to get Kuna's read on things.. Scott probably has good experience as well.

[Kuna]

Quote from: Kuna on 20 July 2007, 16:06:30
By the way... I met several REALLY well adjusted and upstanding ex-pats living there.  Their perspective on UW was TOTALLY different to the opinions you'll read in here.  Talking to them opened my eyes on who might be honest and who might not be...
Kuna

Could you say more about that? What was totally different about the expats' opinions, views you don't read here?

Jen,

I've met ex-pats who are dismayed at the thought of men traveling to FSU looking for a wife because they've had a series of their own bad dating experiences themselves.  One told me quite candidly that any man marrying had better be certain he wasn't dating a hooker/cheater/scammer/GCG/etc because they were out there are felt no remorse for highly questionable behaviour.

I asked him if he would marry a FSUW before returning home one day and he said "DEFINITELY, THEY ARE THE BEST WOMEN IN THE WORLD" but went on to explain that even he still felt like it was a big gamble because it's not easy to find a genuine girl.

I read of men who purposely aim for a large age gap... or men who are clearly playing outside of their league in any number of other ways (Looks, education, cultural appreciation) and I can't help but think they are taking the biggest gamble of all...  Still there are some that are lucky and they call claim to hit the jackpot but I would suggest dozens fail for every success but we never hear from them.

Most men that travel to FSU never even find a forum like this before they travel.  Most that I met hadn't even thought of it and did all of their "research" on the dating websites... the sites that make money from men writing letters and travelling to seek marriage.

Before my last trip I was in a cab and my driver happened to be Ukrainian.  We talked for the whole journey and I told him of my upcoming trip and we chatted about "all things Ukrainian".  As I got out he said, good luck, have fun and be careful". After my return I jumped into a cab one day and was surprised to see the same driver.  He asked about my trip and My Girl and somehow we got to the subject of religion.  He said religion was (in his opinion) the biggest factor for success in marrying a UW because social norms and morals had come crashing down in the recent past and many women he dated were "just bad women". He said at least a girl that was "relatively religious" would have some reference point for "appropriate behaviour" while many others are just living for leasure.  He wasn't talking about someone who was a regular church goer...  but he was responding to my comment about My Girl's complete reverence when we entered a church together.

The thing is... MANY men that travel to FSU looking for marriage had their interest initially sparked by a scammer contacting them from a dating site.  They're often lonely and unsuccessful at home.  They then search marriage sites and believe the BS they are being fed.  They're not bad men... they just are unprepared.  They're excited and off they go believing the hype and expecting to be a part of some fairytale.  Many have probably had no experience with FSU culture or people in the past so EVERYTHIGN will be ore foreign than they can imagine.

An ex-pat living in a country has the time to understand the environment and people more.  Ask jb...  he spent a lot of time living and working in Russia before he married his wife.  People are often offended at his posts but it's a FACT that he will know the environment better than anyone who wears rosy coloured glasses.

Ex-pats see all of these men flying in and flying out...  The ex-pats hear the good and bad stories.  They definitely have a more realistic view than those pursuing a fantasy.

Kuna