Battle of Poltava

[Jack]

Mir, I think were talking about the one and same battle in Poltava, the Battle of Poltava where Peter met the King of Sweden (Charles XII) which took place in late June 1709.

Charles did secure the services of Mazepa in 1708 and Mazepa accompanied Charles to Russia and eventually traveling to Ukraine, however you mention that "the growing grievances lead the Cossack/Ukrainians to rebel against the Russian Tsar Peter the Great."    I think a more accurate portrayal would be that Mazepa became upset with Peter's demands of the Cossacks and Mazepa, with a small group of followers, joined Charles's army, BUT most Cossacks remained loyal to Peter.

I do not know the answer, and would be curious if you did know, but when you write that Mazepa's Ukraine army was defeated, I'm more inclined to believe it was a small number of men and not the Ukraine Cossacks as a whole. Again Mir, I do not know this for sure but think this was the case.

I think that Ukraine's fate as an independent nation was sealed 55 years earlier when Bohdan Khmelnytsky had to seek the Czar's assistance in 1654 to gain it's Independence from the Poles.

The first time I ever heard of the Battle of Poltava was 1996 while seeing this wonderful painting in a museum in Moscow (the museum very close to the new Monument to Peter the Great). At the time the painting and the battle did not mean so much to me. Over the years I have learned to appreciate the painting much more.

To answer your last question, was the Battle of Poltava a great Russian victory or a terrible Ukrainian defeat, in my opinion I would have to say it was a great Russian victory.

[Mir]

Yes Jack you are right to assume that the Pereyaslav agreement had made Ukraine a protectorate of Russia but the agreement gave Cossacks internal autonomy (they chose their own hetman, had their own army and collected their own taxes etc.) the loyalty to the Tsar was conditional, required mutual rights and promises. A bit like West Germany's protection by the USA during the cold war. Majority of Cossacks were not happy with Russia's increasing interference in their internal affairs. It is true that Mazeppa's Cossack army that fought with Charles XII was not big (2000 men). I am not sure if the remaining Cossacks were loyal to the Tsar or they did not have many more fighting men available. It is known that in retaliation for Mazeppa joining Charles Peter ordered the the inhabitants of Baturin (Cossack capital) to be executed and 7,000 were killed. After Russian victory the Cossack capital was moved to Hlukhiv closer to Russian border, hetmens were to appointed by Moscow, Russian officers were given command of Cossack regiments and Russian officials were to run the government. Vast Ukrainian estates were granted by Moscow to Russian, German and Serbian colonists.
I agree with you that there are a lot of unanswered questions about Mazepas intentions and his popularity with Cossacks and Ukrainians but still Poltava did produce a shift in Russian-Urainian relationship. Russia changed from a protector to outright overlord.

[Jack]

Yes Mir, with what little I know I would agree with your statements above.

I have read that only a small percentage of the Cossacks turned on Peter. And when one thinks of the facts, and outcome, it does make logical sense.

Charles I think was a bit over confident, he had dominated the battlefield during the previous decade, having even defeated Peter once earlier.  Charles knew he had a well equipped, well disciplined army,  but how arrogant to think one could win a battle at this time in history being out manned 2 to 1?

Charles had what, 20-25,000 men?  Peter had 45,000 men.   

And this is the one over whelming stat I go back to in support of the fact that Mazepa did not have anywhere close to a majority of Ukrainian (Cossack) support.  If the Cossacks had supported Mazepa and Charles, Charles would have had 60-70,000 troops and the outcome of history would have changed.

[Mir]

True that majority of Cossacks did not join Mazepa and either remained loyal to Peter or just waited from the sideline to see the results. The fact that Russia and Cossacks were both Orthodox and the clergy sided with the Tsar played a big role. Perhaps it was a mistake since Peter executed everyone regardless as revenge, many were crucified. it is possible that had all Cossacks joined Mazepa the result at Poltava might have been different and since Ukraine is much further from Sweden c/w Russia the Ukrainians would have had a much more autonomous state allied with Sweden.

[Shadow]

Actually when I recently read about the battle (because of your post) it was mentioned that Peter fought  the batle to avoid Ukraine being aligned with and ruled by Poland.
While there is no way we can see or understand the results if things had been done different, there is a lot more chance that Ukraine would have become a part of Poland than that they had become an autonomous state.
As the Cossack states were divided between those loyal to Poland and those loyal to Russia, there is an even bigger chance that the current 'blue' part of Ukraine would have become fully Russian, and the 'orange' part fully Polish. As such Ukraine has its current independence thanks to becoming a substate of Russia, not in spite of it.
But I am sure that no Ukrainian (especially the 'orange' ones) will see it that way. 

[Jack]

Shadow, I guess one could ponder why Peter was fighting with the King of Sweden, but there is NO doubt as to WHY King Charles XII was after Peter, went looking for Peter, and was looking to defeat the Russian Czar.  And that one reason was to get back the Swedish land that Peter had taken from him, from Sweden, and built St. Petersburg on.

[Mir]

Shadow

Ukraine had been a part of Poland (mainly the Western Ukraine).
The king of Poland August II was his cousin but his enemy as well. In 1700 Charles faced the Russians at the battle of Narva, the Swedish army had 10, 000 men while the Russian army had 40,000 men. Despite this Charles inflicted a crushing defeat on the Russians. Russians lost 15,000 men and Swedes only 700. At this stage instead of pressing home his advantage by marching on to St Petersburgh Charles attack Poland. In 1702 August II was defeated at the battle of Kliszow and as a result Charles was able to put his puppet Stanisław Leszczyński on the Polish thorn.
Therefore at the time of Poltava Poland was an ally of Sweden, infact Poland did threaten to invade Ukraine as Ukraine was a Russian protectorate. Mazepa asked Peter for help and was turned down. That was one of the main reasons for Mazepa to change sides as the Cossacks felt that Russia did not protect them.
Certainly Poltava was a battle between Russia and Sweden and Poland was only a Swedish puppet at that time.

Jack

Yes it is quite possible that the earlier victories against the Russians with even greater odds gave Charles a sense of overconfidence. The other main reason was that he was far away from his home with a very stretched supply line. Infact at one time his army was starving when his supply train was captured by Russians.