Ladies, why did you decide to search for a mate abroad?

[jen]

Hi everyone,

I know that there are at least a few of you who participate actively here, and maybe many more who are less frequent responders. I am interested in your viewpoints, too, so I wanted to dedicate a new thread to it.

To start off:

Assuming you are either corresponding with, dating, or married to an American (or other foreign, as the case may be) man, what led you to this decision?  There are many reasons I have heard given, perhaps chief among these being dissatisfactions with/scarcity of Russian/FSU men. I am curious as to what those of you on this board think. That is a big question, but I will leave it open-ended and see what you are most interested in discussing.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you're willing to share. If you don't mind, include a brief description of what your status is (corresponding/dating/engaged/married/or...?).

Jen

[StrawberryGirl]

Hello Jen,

I am a wife of the one who is posted under tigerpaws name in this forum.

 We have been happily married for 7 years and I would say I am happier now than when I first met him.
He is a wonderful person, lots of fun to be with, great father and my number one friend.
Why I decided to look for somebody on another part of the world?
I was married before and it's was not very successful, my ex-husband who was  8 years older than me, was very much depended from what his mother has to say, every  thing happening between us was always discussed with my mother in law. This women took  control over our young family and it's broke our relationships. We got divorced. Than later I met (maybe It's was my destiny) many other men with the self-esteem  problem who could not make decision on there own. It was very discouraging for me.
I started looking overbroad after I heard a story from my friend, she married to a guy from Holland,
she told me everything in details how they met, how he is cherishing the love between them ... this story was very impressive.In few years my family and I moved to a small city where my chances to find somebody was very limited, plus being 25 years old did not play in to my favor, I was considered  being too old to find a good guy, he has to be ether divorced or married. Neither one was in my choice and that how I came to strong decision to put my add in one of the free marriage agency and was very surprised how many replies I heard back. My mother  was having a huge fun collecting   all of my  letters  from the men around the world and keeping them inside of the pillowcase. It's took for me three years of almost every day of correspondence to find a man of my dream.  I had a moment when I was ready to give up once, I am glad that I didn't. My choice was right and don't have any regrets about it. We celebrate our seven years anniversary a few weeks ago and of course like every couple we have all our ups and downs in life but it's only brings us closer as a family and makes our love stronger.

Jen, I hope that my short story would bring a tiny light in the research that you doing, If you have any additional questions I'll be happy to give you my opinion.
 
StrawberryGirl   

[catzenmouse]

Strawberry Girl,

 Welcome! Very glad to have you take the time to share your thoughts! We will all look forward to hearing more from you and how you feel about the different topics we discuss here. Tiger Paws is a very lucky man!

Ken

[GalinaF]

Hello Jen,

I’ve been married for 4.5 years to Michael, an American man who lives in a rural part of CT.  I was married to a Russian guy for 14 years, then we got divorced, and I found out that it was extremely difficult to find a middle-aged Russian man who would actually consider marrying a woman in her early 40s. I can’t say that it’s a problem to find a man for STR or even LTR in St. Petersburg, Russia, but the only man who wanted to marry me was … my ex-husband. I knew the guy pretty well, so it wasn’t an option for me.  So, I was looking for “marriage material”, who can bear me, and as I figured out pretty quickly, only a foreign guy could marry a 40 something woman with a certain past “baggage”. At least, foreign men declared that that they had serious intentions and were willing to settle down. It was the reason why I posted my ad on the match.com site. I got quite a few responses to my ad, met a few guys in SPb, visited USA (on a K-1), Germany, Norway, and England before I received Michael’s email…  Michael was looking for a woman who lived not farther than 100 miles from his place for short meetings on weekends. It was so familiar… and it was exactly what I didn’t want to have! So, I wrote a very straightforward letter, and I was very surprised to hear from him back. To make a long story short, Michael applied for his passport; I sent him an invitation from the tourist agency I was working with at the time; he received a Russian visa and came to SPb for a blind date. The date went extremely well…

I will be happy to answer any of your further questions.

Galina

[Lily]

   There are many reasons I have heard given, perhaps chief among these being dissatisfactions with/scarcity of Russian/FSU men. I am curious as to what those of you on this board think. That is a big question, but I will leave it open-ended and see what you are most interested in discussing.

 

Jen, thanks for the good question. I also think it is about unavailability and quality of Russian men.

Below are my comments on the two issues.

Scarcity

Russia used to be a patriarchal society where men used to play more significant role than women. The Soviet history added to this by destroying the old Russian nobility and merchants and focusing on hard manual laborers. For Russian people, life became a lot harder, only the strongest could survive. Therefore, one needed either to be strong, or to have a strong one by their side. Men became a definite commodity.

In a Russian family, boys used to be more valued than girls with the hope that they grow to family providers. The girls were nevertheless regarded as a more comfortable family asset, less risky but potentially less profitable. Since the life was hard, being a single woman was a way to poverty.

As people already said, Russians typically marry between 20-25 years. After they reach 18, the dating fever is high. The best of the best catches are usually taken till 25-28 years old. This is especially true for the men. They are commodities in Russia, not the women. If a young stud is good, he is likely to be taken early, unless some valid reason.

For a young woman it is different. Even if she is beautiful, kind and promising home keeper, she may well stay single for a long time. A single quality woman in Russia would mean that she did not find a suitable match yet. A single quality man in Russia would create excitement, competition and big female fuss around him.

When we say ‘there is no men around’, we mean ‘there is no suitable men around’. The male marriage material is scarce, not the men as such. The statistics shows equal numbers of both genders, you see?

If we move the age scale a bit forward, we will see that starting from 35-40 years of life men begin either to loose a lot in their quality of looks, health and attitude, or to dye off. Now tell me what age group prevails among men in the online dating company who target Russian women? Exactly this one, 40 +.

Hope that explains a bit on the scarcity issue.

This and the respective competition among women resulted in extremely high requirements for women in Russia. That’s why Russian women put a lot of efforts to look their best. Russian men set the beauty bar very, very high. Men of all ages prefer women 20-25 years old, please no older. They tend to think that after 25 years old a woman is garbage. I seldom see a Western man having same thinking.
 
Quality

You see there is a big disparity in quality of men and women in Russia. Mother nature made the men less capable to endure a permanently hard life. It looks like the life in Russia has made a heavy impact on Russian men. Until some 25 years of life, they seem to have a somehow positive attitude; they are alluring and having fun. This age group does hardly differ from their Western peers.

With the time however, Russian men quickly and drastically loose in quality. This is especially to notice at high school meetings. I barely recognize my former classmates after 15-20 years of finishing school. Where are all their sparks and laughs gone?

Russian men don’t smile. They are super sober, even grumpy faces. My female instincts don’t like it at all. I have seen and had enough soberness, I want to enjoy life.

Their way of dress leaves a lot to be desired. Many try to groom and to look good, but…somehow something is missing in the whole picture. They struggle at being nice and making others feel good. Russian men used to live in far from decent, even humiliating conditions. This made a negative impact on their personality.

To put it short, Russian men look like life has been beaten out of them. Our instincts assume the appearance reflects the inner world….

Here is one big advantage of Western men over the Russian ones. Even in their 40s and 50s, they hardly loose in quality. Many even gain.

RM vs WM

In early 1990es I jobbed as interpreter in a joint venture with many Europeans, mostly Germans men. The difference between Russians and Westerners was apparent. The latter had a truly positive demeanor. They were challenging. Interesting. Sparkling. Optimistics. Even a few business problems did not mean disaster for them. To me they look like people who used to live a decent life.
Needless to say, German and Dutch soon discovered the local women, and a chain of divorces followed on both sides.  Even the married expats divorced and married a few Russian women colleagues. 

Jen, I have a fairly comfortable life in Russia. All conditions being equal, I'd prefer a Russian man. But they are not equal, not at all!

[Kuna]

Lily,

You've been getting too many compliments lately but I have to say that is the most "grounded" reasoning I've heard on this.  It replicates the things my girl told me but to be honest she is very hesitant to be critical of anything Ukrainian... I'm going to have to think about some of the things you said and will ask some questins in a new thread.

Wonderful post!

Kuna

[wiz]

Lily

It is very refreshing to come back on the board and read posts like yours above.

I can only congradulate you and wish you continue posting such valuable information and enlighten us with your inside knowledge.

Shame that I am not 10-15 years younger as I would have come and chase you to the end of the world........LOL 

[Admin]

Jen,

Piping up with an article from the Kyiv Post which contains some interesting statistics, and analysis. Here is the link to the article -- http://www.kyivpost.com/nation/26965/

And here are a couple of excerpts:

A “save the males” message was delivered to Ukraine by the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) on July 11, a date designated by the UN as World Population Day.

In Ukraine, the situation with male mortality is dire compared with the West.

Vornyk said if that trend continued, then “we will have a women-only country… If we want men to protect the rights of women, then we need to preserve the men in our country.

The situation, if accurate as presented, would most certainly have the effect of motivating women to seek mates elsewhere.

FYI

- Dan

[Mir]

Lily

Good post and I am sure it will make the spirits of all 40is Western men looking for Russian women soar

[Lily]

Thanks guys, the post was actually thought to be for the jen's research, hope it makes sense to her 

Jen, would you eventually suggest another subject for this thread to be visible for everyone? The heading as is, A question for the FSUW here, does not show the subject.

[jen]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the thoughts, especially Lily's extensive ones.

Re: the title, OK, how about something like: "FSUWs, why did you decide to search for a mate abroad?"

Lily, your thoughts here echo what my friends in St. Petersburg often told me about Russian men:

"You see there is a big disparity in quality of men and women in Russia. Mother nature made the men less capable to endure a permanently hard life. It looks like the life in Russia has made a heavy impact on Russian men... Russian men used to live in far from decent, even humiliating conditions. This made a negative impact on their personality."

Galina made a related point about men's "self-esteem problems".

Why do you think that Russian life is harder on men than on women?  Some of my friends (most of whom actually were not looking for husbands abroad, but they were still saying the same things) gave explanations such as, "women are naturally hardier than men; men don't deal with stress as well" (similar to your comment above); or "men have a lot of pressure on them since they are expected to provide for a family, and when they can't do so in the way they feel they should they may give up and fall into a depression."  Could you or others say a little bit more about why, in your experience, Russian men suffer "negative impacts" that women do not, or do not in the same way?  And if someone else disagrees that such a problem exists, please share your thoughts, too.

Galina, why do you think the Russian men you encountered were so unwilling to marry a "40+ woman with some baggage?"  Why/how are AM different in this aspect, in your experience?

Thanks everyone, J.

[Blues Fairy]

Hello Jen,

I will not generalize about the quality of Russian men - scarcity, perhaps, but I've been very lucky so far.  I got to date many decent, educated, successful Russian guys with excellent sense of humor.  But it did not work out for various reasons (including my own commitment-phobia perhaps).  I still have lots of male friends and acquaintances here and, being a singer-songwriter, I am rather popular.  

But it just so happened that four years ago I went to one website to calclate my IQ, created (almost accidentally) a dating profile there, and it turned out to be fun.  And my very first click eventually turned out to be the man of my dreams.  We started by writing long unfrequent literary letters to each other, and after a couple of years of this romanesque correspondence I realized that not one of my then-suitors, both online and offline, could compare to that man behind the letters.  Apparently a similar thing occurred to him.  So we met...

Again - no generalizations, but... I doubt if a man like him would stay unattached for long here in Russia.   On the other hand, people like him and myself have very high standards and would not settle for less, hence the narrow choice of candidates, regardless of the country of origin.  

[jen]

But it just so happened that four years ago I went to one website to calclate my IQ, created (almost accidentally) a dating profile there, and it turned out to be fun.  And my very first click eventually turned out to be the man of my dreams.  We started by writing long unfrequent literary letters to each other, and after a couple of years of this romanesque correspondence I realized that not one of my then-suitors, both online and offline, could compare to that man behind the letters. 

Wow, what a romantic story!

[Blues Fairy]

Wow, what a romantic story!

Wait till you hear how we met... 

I was bold enough to invite him to a sailing regatta in Greece, where I was going with my friends (the Pirates).  I thought he'd come up with some excuse, but instead it was a "Hell yes!"  And so, early in the morning, my boat anchored near his hotel on a spectacular island in the Aegean... 

But I'm going into off-topic here, sorry. 

[ecr844]

Wait till you hear how we met... 

I was bold enough to invite him to a sailing regatta in Greece, where I was going with my friends (the Pirates).  I thought he'd come up with some excuse, but instead it was a "Hell yes!"  And so, early in the morning, my boat anchored near his hotel on a spectacular island in the Aegean... 

"BluesFairy,"

   Is this a prelude to your <writing in progress> NY Times best selling novel? It sounds like you have had quite an incredible experience!
Best wishes,
ECR844

[MaxxumUSA]

Jen,

I have been responding to your requests for information in other threads.  I am leary of "researchers" a bit basically for fear of a misunderstanding of my posts or possibly taking things out of context.  But - this applies to me and I don't mind the exposure.

I tell you this because my Elena is a lurker here.  This means from time to time she comes here and reads posts - including mine.  She does participate in limited fashion at http://www.russian-fiancee.com/rus/forum/ which is a forum run by, and for russian women that are in relationships with foreign men.  I was actually the one that asked her to register there because I felt it would help her to not feel isolated in her quest to be with me.

So...  I tell you this because I think Elena could contribute to this thread here.  She has never posted here before but I believe it would be useful.  I'm unsure of how much detail she would give.

So I have a question - If I ask my Elena if she will respond - what intentions do you have with the information she gives?

Also - if she posts here I would prefer she posts in Russian so she can express herself in her native tounge.  Any volunteers to translate if she contributes?

[KenC]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the thoughts, especially Lily's extensive ones.

Re: the title, OK, how about something like: "FSUWs, why did you decide to search for a mate abroad?"

Lily, your thoughts here echo what my friends in St. Petersburg often told me about Russian men:

"You see there is a big disparity in quality of men and women in Russia. Mother nature made the men less capable to endure a permanently hard life. It looks like the life in Russia has made a heavy impact on Russian men... Russian men used to live in far from decent, even humiliating conditions. This made a negative impact on their personality."

Galina made a related point about men's "self-esteem problems".

Why do you think that Russian life is harder on men than on women?  Some of my friends (most of whom actually were not looking for husbands abroad, but they were still saying the same things) gave explanations such as, "women are naturally hardier than men; men don't deal with stress as well" (similar to your comment above); or "men have a lot of pressure on them since they are expected to provide for a family, and when they can't do so in the way they feel they should they may give up and fall into a depression."  Could you or others say a little bit more about why, in your experience, Russian men suffer "negative impacts" that women do not, or do not in the same way?  And if someone else disagrees that such a problem exists, please share your thoughts, too.

Galina, why do you think the Russian men you encountered were so unwilling to marry a "40+ woman with some baggage?"  Why/how are AM different in this aspect, in your experience?

Thanks everyone, J.

jen,
Sorry for sticking my man's nose into this thread, but I thought you might like to hear a man's take on what you asked.

From everything I have come to know about life in Russia, there were very little opportunities for improvement of one's life in the past.  I remember reading a statistical breakdown (years ago) where it wasn't that there were not enough men in general, but not enough men that could afford to support a family.  This kind of discouraging economic landscape would suck the life out of any good man trying to provide for his family.  Fortunately, this is now changing and the opportunities are growing.  (Sorry again for this interruption)
KenC

[jen]

So I have a question - If I ask my Elena if she will respond - what intentions do you have with the information she gives?

Also - if she posts here I would prefer she posts in Russian so she can express herself in her native tounge.  Any volunteers to translate if she contributes?

I'd be happy to hear your wife's comments. As for what I would do with the comments, well, it would be the same as with any comments I read here. It will add to my overall picture of A-FSU dating and marriage, about which I will ultimately publish some academic articles. There is a small chance that I would quote her words directly, but 1) I would not directly quote anyone who asked me not to, and 2) I would never use any real names, handle names, or any identifying information that would tell a reader the source of the quote. Does this answer your question?

It is great if Elena wants to post in Russian. I can read Russian, but maybe either I or Lily can translate so that others can read too.

[Lily]

Why do you think that Russian life is harder on men than on women?  Some of my friends (most of whom actually were not looking for husbands abroad, but they were still saying the same things) gave explanations such as, "women are naturally hardier than men; men don't deal with stress as well" (similar to your comment above); or "men have a lot of pressure on them since they are expected to provide for a family, and when they can't do so in the way they feel they should they may give up and fall into a depression."  Could you or others say a little bit more about why, in your experience, Russian men suffer "negative impacts" that women do not, or do not in the same way?  And if someone else disagrees that such a problem exists, please share your thoughts, too.
 

Men seem to naturally be more exposed to more risky, dangerous enveavours. So they potentially suffer more often. They want more and struggle harder. They know that society expects from them to be providers and conquerors, what is an uneasy task in a lawless, intransparent, cruel society. They suffer when they fail justifying the expectation.

Men tend to be more ambitious than woman. If they cannot satisfy the ambition, they are less flexible than woman in order to bring in some corrections in their ambitious plans or to lower the bar for themselves. this used to be a big source for increased stress, and it takes them lots of vodka to relax. Or a XO Cognac, depending on their pocket.

I also think that women are dealing with stress better. They seem to be biologically stronger than men, because mother mature equipped the women with some natural protectors. Every female is more important for the nature, because she is to bear kids. Males are less important from biological point of view.    so they seem not to have a lot of in-built protectors.

Wome are more flexible. They can survive many things. Remember the Gulags - women endured longer and survived where men perished.

Something like that.

[GalinaF]

Galina, why do you think the Russian men you encountered were so unwilling to marry a "40+ woman with some baggage?"  Why/how are AM different in this aspect, in your experience?

It’s a tough question… Well, maybe Russian men are just more honest about their intentions? Or they do not see any need to prettify their true intentions – make these intentions more socially accepted, more “politically-correct”? I didn’t date enough Russian males to make any statistically valid generalizations, but I got a very strong gut feeling that I would be dating for ages in Russia without any tangible results. So, I decided to try another “pasture” where the grass seemed greener…

Although I don’t like to speculate and generalize, I’ll try to do my best coming up with possible reasons explaining RM’s typical behavior. Well, when a person is looking for a partner, the person is thinking about enhancing his or her life, making this life complete, but not more complicated. For a normal man, it usually means having more fun without having more problems. So, he wants to have a problem -free relationship with a woman, which is impossible to have being married to the woman.  The Russian men I met were concentrated on having a good time together. My everyday life was of no interest to them, and I never met a Russian man while dating after my divorce who was willing to help me with anything practical. I still have my fondest memories of my ex-husband fixing a leaking faucet in my apartment when I invited him to come in for the first time. Probably, I just wasn’t lucky…

I have to say that I didn’t waste too much time exploring my chances on the Russian dating scene. It was obvious that they were slim, and I didn’t mind learning more about the West in general and western males in particular… In my experience, men are more or less the same everywhere on earth.  Nobody wants to add an extra burden to his or her life. BUT! It seems that western males are more educated about what is believed to be a good “family man”. They are capable of creating good first impressions through their emails/phone conversations, which can hold a woman interested for quite a while. Behind all the politically-correct words, there is still the same guy looking for a less troubled relationship than he used to have with his ex. I believe that a woman can figure out what kind of person she communicates with and what his true intentions are only when she has lived with the man for a while. It takes time to get to the “core”…whether the man actually meant what he tried to convey in his letters. Also, an average western man understands that it is not financially feasible to maintain a long-distance dating for a long time, so he has to make his mind quickly, which is definitely different from the way a next-door Russian man thinks…

BTW, I didn’t quite get what you meant saying that I "...made a related point about men's "self-esteem problems".   Could you please specify?

[Lily]

Why do you think the Russian men you encountered were so unwilling to marry a "40+ woman with some baggage?"  Why/how are AM different in this aspect, in your experience?

Russian men are notorious age freaks.   Particular reasons are hard to find, but let me try...

A prime for a woman is knows as 20-25 years old. A teenage RM are attracted to this group. A RM of same age are attracted to same group. A 30-35 RM do also want women fron that very same age group. When RM reach 40-45, they still tend to look at the same women age group.

I read posts at a gender -related Russian forum. Men say to that, women drastically lose their attractiveness after 25. They give births, their bodies are sagging. Their faces became less babylike. Some women gain weight after birth. Men want a total, absolute, perfect doll that turns heads.

But if only the appearance were the reason. Some women even gain beauty with age. For such rare cases, Russian fora male members give advice on how to tell a woman's age if her beauty is shining so that a man cannot tell whether she is 45 or 25  : "First look at her hands. Hands skin is very receptive to aging, and are hard to make up. Then, look at her neck that also reflects the tiniest signs of aging. If her hands and neck happen to be impeccable, look at her underarms. At the age of 40, their underarm skin makes small wrinkles that she is unable to improve". And so on...

One woman told about her boyfriend who seemed to be in love with her. He had no idea about her age. One day he asked this question. The woman told her date of birth. After that, she decribed, he suddenly got a look like he just heard that someone dear to him is dead.

Another woman asked whether the men would take a very beautiful older woman. (Guys, do you remember my question to rate Sophia Loren? ). Russian men replied that this would be similar to buying a car that is 3 years old versus buying a car that is 10 years old. The latter, they told, is more likely to show some technical problems soon, as it has been used longer.

Russian men opine it is all about potential and resources. A high-guality older women is expected to wear out sooner than the younger one. Beauty is a limited resource! The beauty of a 40years old would last a few years only. After that she fades quickly. For an older woman, everything is in past, and she is not expected to have anything exciting in her life any more. The younger one has hopes, desires, she has potential to reach something. Life would be interesting and more fulfilling with a young woman. RM seldom see an aged person having fun and enjoying life.

As for the 'baggage', RM apparently presume that it is negative rather than a positive.

By the way, I'd be curious what is the baggage here. Probably I could take some inventory in my stock 

[Mir]

Ageing of the skin can have various resons but the most important factor is sun.
This is even more important in those with fair skin. Areas of the skin that are exposed to sun age quicker then non-exposed areas, so face, back of hands, upper chest, upper back and lower legs will have older skin then the rest.
Women with fair skin who minimize exposure to sun will have less wrinkles, pigmentation and a younger skin then those who get lots of sun exposure.
So the hijab, which is a head to foot dress worn by conservative Muslim women when they go out will keep their skin younger for longer

[Hub]

The Russian men I met were concentrated on having a good time together. My everyday life was of no interest to them, and I never met a Russian man while dating after my divorce who was willing to help me with anything practical.

Galina, I can relate to this.  I have dated several RW/UW aged 40 and above.  I have always offered to fix some things in their apt that didn't quite work correctly such as dripping faucet, light switches, door hinges, etc.  They were quite amazed that I offered to fix things, and that I was also able to do it.

In other instances, I asked the ladies about what they did in their work.  They just said a sentence or so and then stopped.  I said, no I want to know more specifically about what you do.  Most exclaimed they had never known a man before who was actually interested in what they did.  With one lady physician, I kept asking her so many questions she had to get out paper and pencil and start drawing diagrams of human nerve connecting systems.  Even with her very interesting work and extremely high level of knowledge, she said that no RM/UM had ever shown any interest in what she knew or what she specifically did.

[Serebro]

I am not looking for a foreign man, I am looking for a man.

[Lily]

Ageing of the skin can have various resons but the most important factor is sun.
 

Sun and certain skin texture is a factor, yes, but to me the direct reason for wrinkles is the natural thinning of skin. If sun would be a problem, many women would make hand gloves their essential detail for daily wear! and many would be considering a hijab

Skin gets thinner by loosing some important ingredients, so the hands start to show blue round veins that were previously hidden under the firmer skin. Fat, housing for female hormones, gets lost as well.