Who creates the negative stereotypes of Russian women?

[I/O]

I put this ramble together for another purpose and I thought it might be interesting to let some guys here pull it to pieces.

Who creates the negative stereotypes of Russian women?

In a phrase, "Ignorant Observers".  However that is only part of the story.  There is a shared responsability in this negatisim which has quite a long history and unfortunately is not likely to change anytime soon.

Indulge me to digress onto a couple of drivers behind the "Stereotyping".

A foreign wife? OMG, that's a Mail Order Bride.  MOB, isn't that someone arranged for you by an agent in a far country? Don't you send a letter outlining your requirements and your MOB is duely despatched to your address and you live sexually satisfied ever after?

Isn't this exactly what happened at least in my country in many cases when the Philipino wife thing first got up a head of steam 35 years ago? You betcha...!!! That's exactly what happened.

The Russian infusion.

Arn't they those types of sexy looking creatures with thick lips we saw bedding unsuspecting agents in the James Bond movies? Arn't they the women the Russian KGB agents used to seduce the foreign men in order to gain secrets by "Pillow Talk"? If they do that for a living, arn't they all just sluts? Oh wait a minute, no they are poverty struck and therefore so desperate they need to do this to gain the next meal? Poor things, it's really sad isn't it.
(Really sad so long as one doesn't move in next door to me)

Now I am thinking about it, perhaps I dont see the whole picture.  Poor darlings are holed up in that frozen wasteland called Siberia where there is nothing but ice, snow and salt mines for thousands of miles. Poor darlings, a man would be almost doing his charitable duty by rescuing one from such a wasted life.

Oh maybe that is not the whole story, we do need to consider the ones who were all filled with steroids and trained as machines in order to win medals at the olympics.  Poor things are really only "Lab Rats" and when they are finished they are huge women with hairy armpits probably carrying a Kalashnikof.

Yes, that's a fairly complete picture of the Russian Mail Order Bride.  Is it any wonder they need to place photos of themselves half naked on the internet in order to get some loser interested.  You know it is only a loser who would resort to something as disgusting and "Creepy" as the internet to find a partner.  Haven't you heard the warnings about all the perverts who work the internet chat rooms?

Now we have the complete picture of the participants in this pursuit (Sarchasm intended), let's look at why it continues in the way it does.  Reality check...!!! As my fiance' (A Russian woman) says very boldly, Russian women need to do a much better job of marketing themselves and behave appropriately if they wish to generally attract a better class of man. Yes some do behave very badly resulting in attracting a lower class of man to this pursuit.

Look at the men who have married MOB's over the years. Do you see any historical trend? Perhaps men who were socially disfunctional to some extent. 

Oh wow, he went to Russia and look at the hotass he brought back.  No I am not just talking about my country.  I've seen it with my own eyes in the USA also.  Wow if someone as hot as that will marry up with this guy who lives in the trailer park, I'm not much worse, I only live under the bridge, I'm sure to get "One of those" also.

Enter the switched on Marketing Operator.

We have a false image on one side together with some drop dead idiot wishseekers and on the other side we have women being poorly advised about what will sell and therefore how they need to present themselves. All fairly grubby level type marketing.  But hey, who am I to complain? I'm just your Joe-Average small company manager who sets a little higher standards than the average and is engaged to be married to a fairly attractive, highly educated, very conservative Russian woman. What would I know? Not much, but a little.

Much of the above addresses the history and cause which is very easy.  What about the solution.  Do we involved in this international relationship thing really even care? Be honest with yourself, yes we do care.  Dammed right we care, because it hurts like hell when we see someone we love being stereotyped into a lower class. 

What can we actually practically do to change attitudes? There is no "Silver Bullet" in order to resolve this in an instant.  Setting the example of a clean living, functional, unified and loving family to the rest of the community will be the only way to argue the case effectively in the long term.  Paint the picture as a picture is worth a thousand words.

We must be bold enough to show the "Courage of our convictions" in so far as be proud and confident enough to introduce your Russian partner as "Russian".  Watch the stunned looks on faces and watch that change over the next few minutes as she charms their sox off.  I have enjoyed this exact scenerio with immense pleasure.

We should, at every opportunity, attack with veracity, interent sites, agents and other marketers who use the atttraction of lewdity and crudity to market this business.

We as men should examine our motives before ever embarking on this pursuit and raise our standards accordingly.  The women who fall below par should get their act together a raise their standards also.  IMO moral and ethical acceptability has no borders and is therefore multilateral.  I do not accept excuses based on cultrual differences in this area.  This is a lazy persons answer.

Government regulation or intervention is absurd.  It has and will achieve exactly nothing other than placate a few of the politically correct "Do Gooders".  The Feminazi movements who attack this pursuit simply because they haven't got what it takes to compete with a feminine, educated and charming woman should be attacked and rebuffed at every opportunity. I make no apology to local friends who ask me why I went this route.  My answer is plain, among you people there is nothing and noone who compares, sorry darlings but you haven't got the goods.

Yes, I have been berrated, called names and ostricised to some extent because I have been so blunt. Does that upset me? Sure it does, but it pales into insignificance when I ponder the quality of the person I will come home to every night for the rest of my life. True friends will remain and the rest can go to hell. 

True friends note that I will soon marry a woman I love. True friends never mention or notice she happens to be a Russian woman.  True friends don't stereotype because it doesn't occur to them to do so.

Who creates the negative stereotypes of Russian women?

Everyone involved.

I/O

[MaxxumUSA]

  ...  Dammed right we care, because it hurts like hell when we see someone we love being stereotyped into a lower class. 

I/O

I don't like this one bit.  I am open about my situation also with all people I know.  I educate them about the women there and try my best to explain my point of view.

You had the opportunity to have your fiancee visit your home already.  Me - I need to wait a few more weeks before people meet mine.  I think she will charm their socks off as yours did...  my only fear is how she will handle people if they are rude to her.  She gets VERY sensitive and hurt at the thought that she is a GCG or desperate or something other than just a woman who is in love and wants to be happy.

Not only are the women being stereotyped - but us men that seek also.  Now when I meet new people - they either hear from me or someone else that I am engaged to a FSUW.  I get people that are interested and ask questions - and I get people that are outright rude to me as if I am some lower class citizen.  I cannot believe some of the rudeness - and they don't even know me or Elena yet.

It's a shame to know that our relationship will be watched so closely.  Almost like people are waiting for - even rooting for - failure.

I agree that there are many factors that create these stereotypes.  I doubt there will ever be a solution that stops them.

I will certainly be a strong voice if and when someone confronts me or Elena with some crap.  But...  That's a lot of defensive work in itself - especially in the beginning of a relationship.  Are you suggesting an offensive approach to this?

[BC]

Agencies.  Take a look at any agency website, add millions of MOB spam emails sent each and every day.. If you have an email address you have received some MOB related spam.  What do you think the first impression is when anyone clicks on a link?

Like they say.. 'first impressions'..

Add sensationalist media coverage and there you are.

If you ever enlisted the services of an agency you should not be complaining about it.



one from today in my spambox..


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[tim 360]

I have definitely seen this RW negativism from people.  Usually it is from people who are ignorant in many other respects and very average or below average.  I am confident there are other topics which they are also uninformed about and have a negative view of that also.

I have not seen the RW negative innuendo from intelligent and worldly people.  Although some WW's may see RW's as a "threat" and will raise an eyebrow or two.  And worse.

We also have the media which has a skewed sensationalistic agenda when covering some of the WM/RW marriages which goe very bad.  Like King etc.

Yeah, BC those agencies and their relentless spam could also give one a dim view of RW's.  And in Manhattan I have seen some high-end drop-dead-beautiful RW hookers who somebody pays big $'s for.

I do think that lack of intelligence and plain simple ignorance has alot to do with it.  And one should always consider the source,  Cheerio, tim360

[KenC]

I/O and Maxxum,
I have tolerated the snide remarks and the rudeness of other ignorant people for a long time now.  There isn't a whole lot you can do about it to be honest.  It has even gotten worse over the years because of the publics exposure to the whole MOB thing.  Nine years ago, the general public here had no clue about such things.  Now we can thank the occasional sensationalized "news" report or such fine examples presented in movies such as "A Bride for Two Brothers" or "Birthday Girl."  (One depicts two clueless idiot American men in search for ONE wife and the other a classic green card whore)

If you are seeking the publics acceptance for your actions, well, it just ain't gonna happen.  Of course your friends and family will eventually judge your relationship on it's own merit, but even they will harbor some negative preconceived notions initially.  If you have thin skin and are not able to deal with the ignorant people of the world, it is going to be a long and miserable time for you.  Lena and I have a standard comedy routine that we use to defuse these negative thoughts.  I make jokes that Lena is my "401K" and that I married her for her money and Lena chirps in that she only married me for sex!  But in the end, happiness is the best revenge.
KenC

[TigerPaws]

KenC,

I see the two of you have stolen our best come back 

By-the-way I was able to use something written here in response to the "Oh! She is a MOB?" Statement/question last night. I said "No she arrived by FedX" The look was worth more than you can imagine and my wife held me close and smiled.  You are right people have no clue.

TigerPaws 

[wiz]

Thank God that I have two lovely and intelligent sons who were brought up to be wise, kind and objective in their views and behaviour and support their old man in his endeavour to find the right woman to share his life otherwise everybody else in overt or covert way expressed their disapproval and hurtful opinions, when they learned about my last Russian experience and that was without ever meeting her.

Now that I have moved on and they hear about it they all tell me, except my sons, how stupid I was and still I am to be looking for a woman in Russia. Russian women in their mind are nasty, sluts, users and all they want from me is my passport etc.

Of course I am thick skin and give them lip back but I have noticed that some of them  avoid to get in touch with me and show their disapproval about my actions, that way. Other’s continue telling me why I don’t look to Greece to find a nice Greek woman….blah blah blah.

So now I just ignore any of their comments and advice and get on with my own life. The support of my sons is good enough for me and I don’t care anymore, like I used to do before.

Actually, as they say, you discover your true friends when you have a rough patch in life and I know now mine are numbered in the fingers of one my hands.

[TigerPaws]

Actually, as they say, you discover your true friends when you have a rough patch in life and I know now mine are numbered in the fingers of one my hands.

wiz,

All to true, you really know who you can count on when the going becomes difficult.

As for the Greek wife. No thank you I dated some women from Greece, way to independent for my taste and talk about a temeper, no thank you.

TigerPaws 

[Rvrwind]

and talk about a temeper

I thought that Italian women had the coner on that market!!
Whoa....That thought brought back some scary memories!

[I/O]

If you are seeking the publics acceptance for your actions, well, it just ain't gonna happen.  KenC

KenC: As I eluded to at the outset of this topic, my ramblings were put together for a slightly 'nother purpose and is perhaps more fitting in that sphere.  Nevertheless, I don't expect, nor do I really seek uniform public support here at home for my choices, I've always tended to do things a little outside the "Norm" and my father once remarked 25 years ago, "You seem prepared to pay dearly for your indepenence".  He was spot on, I am prepared to do exactly that.

What I am suggesting in the notes is this, many, if they are really honest with themselves, due to lack of public understanding, are perhaps a little apologetic for their choice of this pursuit.  I am convinced that if a man is a man, he should be prepared to "Go on the attack" in the face of opposition as that opposition is generally spawned from blind ignorance and rarely will polite correction shake someone out of their blind ignorance. 

Further, I don't see the perceptions, at least in my country, changing markedly anytime soon or even in my lifetime, however I am convinced of the potential benifits of more international relationships and therefore, if we can begin to change public perception, even if only at a micro level, it will surely be of benifit to those who follow this path later.

The snide remarks will always come and those in and of themselves are more ammusing than annoying.  A "clown" made this crack to me the other day, "Ah, so you went and got ya'self a $1 bride huh?" I responded thus, "A few thousand dollars actually, but I see you got yours for free, I guess it only goes to prove we get what we pay for". I doubt we'll ever be drinking Buddies.

I suspect my fiance' will be much less accomodating than me in the face of such comments. Hell hath no fury as the woman scorned and no woman reacts positively in the face of insults, throw Russian into that mix and I see some free entertainment in the future.

I/O

[MaxxumUSA]

Hell hath no fury as the woman scorned and no woman reacts positively in the face of insults, throw Russian into that mix and I see some free entertainment in the future.

I/O

When you started this thread was early this morning.  I was talking to Elena for our usual 30-45 minute webcam chat today...  I asked her a hypothetical about how will she react to the rudeness that will come ocasionally.  She basically said that there are good people and bad people everywhere.  True in my experience.

I agree we will never get rid of the sterortypes that some have.

I am with you that I will strike these people down - with a great authority - if and when they mess with me.  If they start crap with my woman...  I think they will be wishing for a different wrath other than mine.  I will not tolerate any man or woman hurting Elena in any way.

The worst part of all this is that we even need to worry about it.  I mean... come on people!  This is the Internet age!  The world is much smaller than it was many moons ago.  And...  for the record even centuries ago people decided to marry with one or two letters.  And their marriages lasted until death.  We're in the Internet age and me and Elena have written/talked thousands of times - 3 visits - many emails - WE ARE A COUPLE.  What's the problem?

If I was dating a woman from New Hampshire a three hour drive away would I have these same issues?  It's nearly the same in my mind when it comes to the distance...  Except the women I have met in NH don't fit what I'm seeking in a lifelong partner.

[Vaughn]

"She wasn't Mail Order, but Internet.... eBay Store to be exact. I accidentally
clicked on "Add to Cart" and now look what's happened."

I actually used that once in response to the usual ignorant question, ie: how
much did she cost?

I will not tolerate any man or woman hurting Elena in any way.

Maxxum, time for me to "come out" as an admirer of your posts here. You two will be
just fine, and I doubt you're going to encounter much criticism. Good luck.

Vaughn

[Rvrwind]

I've always tended to do things a little outside the "Norm" and my father once remarked 25 years ago, "You seem prepared to pay dearly for your indepenence".  He was spot on, I am prepared to do exactly that.

I/O in my case it was my Mother & her only comment was, "You were always the crazy one in the family!" Gee Thanks Mom, I think...

[MaxxumUSA]

Maxxum, time for me to "come out" as an admirer of your posts here. You two will be
just fine, and I doubt you're going to encounter much criticism. Good luck.

Vaughn

Thank you.

[Icarus]

To expand on the Aussie perspective. I found that in previous years, the Filipino MOB gained a notorious reputation here, as you would hear media reports about them coming only to get Permanent Residency in Australia.

We have an infamous Filipino bride; Rose Hancock; picture a much older and Asian Anna Nicole Smith, always in the media in the worst way.

Now Aussies back then, and still in part today, are quite close minded. So the negative perception they have on MOB simply transfered over to Russian and Ukraine women.

Again, the media has not helped any here. I consider this adventure, as international dating. I mean I am Australian born, but from South American parents. If I got a Latina wife does that make her MOB? And in whose opinion?

If I got an Aussie bride, what would that make her? I travel alot also, so if I got a US, UK, etc woman does that make her a MOB? Why, and why not?

I find that we (society in general) dont know much about anywhere except our own backyards. I can tell you a lot about Australia, as could I/O, and Kuna. But before we started this we could tell you little about the FSU; excpet that they were communists, socialists, ate caviar, traded in roubles, and were the enemy of the pretty, lovable, caring USA. Think about it, how much do we know about Afghanistan, Iraq but we generally have an opinion, and some times that opinion is based on what the media decides to show us.

I reckon that the more men and women like us, expand our thinking beyond our borders, that these negative stereotypes will decrease with each generation.

In answer of the question. I blame the media, and their sensationalist capitalism.

Ick

[wiz]

wiz,

All to true, you really know who you can count on when the going becomes difficult.

As for the Greek wife. No thank you I dated some women from Greece, way to independent for my taste and talk about a temeper, no thank you.

TigerPaws 

TigerPaws

I said no thanks to Greek women since I was there 35+ years ago and never looked back again.......... I only dated foereign women ever since I was 21 Years old.

It is not only their temper but also their mentality ...... 

[Lily]

In answer of the question. I blame the media, and their sensationalist capitalism.

Ick

I think this is close to being a correct answer. Let me add some more ideas.

The Westerners seem to think no good of Russians because we used to live under undecent conditions, and, what is even more important, we used to tolerate them. We swallow humiliating actions from cops who live from our taxes. We suffer under bad living conditions, we go out every morning from our homes risking to break legs walking in darkness. When filing some needed applications, we face the state officers who tell us outright that despite our right lawfull standing they will not approve our whatever applications, knowing that it would take us hell of work to upheld our standing in court.

When I am visiting western countries, I hate it when someone suddenly recognizes a Russian in me. I feel ashamed. 

By the Western eyes, Russians are apparently seen as people who live under constant everyday humiliation. A humiliated person would hardly be respected. This, IMHO, could be a reason for a negative reputation.

I remember my German colleague told me something like, 'I understand that people can live in Siberia. But what I don't understand is how one can voluntarily live there?' 

[MaxxumUSA]

Wow lily...

Interesting perspective.  Very interesting.

I never heard a russian person mention being ashamed of being russian.  Do you suspect others feel this?

[Lily]

Wow lily...

Interesting perspective.  Very interesting.

I never heard a russian person mention being ashamed of being russian.  Do you suspect others feel this?

Do you mean whether other Russians feel this, or other Western people?

If you mean Russians, I think some really do. A few shared with me similar feelings.

[MaxxumUSA]

Do you mean whether other Russians feel this, or other Western people?

If you mean Russians, I think some really do. A few shared with me similar feelings.

I meant russians.

But you bring up another intersting question of whether Americans/Western people might sense or feel this - if anything on a subconscious level.

[Bruno]

By the Western eyes, Russians are apparently seen as people who live under constant everyday humiliation. A humiliated person would hardly be respected.

For me, Russian are heroes... put 100 western people in the living condition of Russian and very few will survive...

When filing some needed applications, we face the state officers who tell us outright that despite our right lawfull standing they will not approve our whatever applications...

It is not better here... of course, our state officers are PC... they will say "thank you" with a big smile when you will give some big amount for a simple paper... in a very short time, these paper will be forget somewhere in our administration... for ask info, they send you from the office A to the office B... but the office B send you back to the office A... Here, they smile, they are politcal correct... but they are the same everywhere... If i can choose, i choose the Russian one who say "fµck you" over the western one who say "thank you" but think "Fµck you"... more hypocrisis on our side...

We suffer under bad living conditions

Maybe true now... but if we go 50 year back... communism have create great things... free education for everybody, right to women for work, city with modern building, electricity, fresh water, etc...

Yep, 50 year ago, Russia was more modern that us... only problem is that the country have closed on herself and stop the evolution... now, the rest of the world seem to be more modern...

But be carefull about these modernity... criminal don't fear anymore the jail... drugs and aids are plague... school are fighting place... etc... i think that Russia have already discover some of these modern plague since the end of communism...

No one system is perfect... each have own quality's and problem's...

Lily, don't start think that Russia is a big sh!t and western world is the paradise... thinking so will lead you to painfull experience when you will be in these western world... here too, it is the jungle... the only difference is that we smile before shot someone in his back... a russian will shot you in front...

[Lily]

Bruno, I appreciate your input. I have lived and worked for enough time both in the US and Europe to know how things are going over there.

Also I had to deal with autorities when it was necessary. Essentially, in order to succeed with them, one should be well informed about what are their duty in respect to you, what conditions do you have to fulfill yourself, what laws support you and at what instance / office you can challenge them. In the U.S., that runs more smooth than in the Europe, where the bureaucracy is somehow tougher. But anyway, a well informed, persistent, legally skilled person eventually wins. It is not the case in Russia, however.

Smiles or rudeness has nothing to do with that, IMHO. However, if a Russian policemen decides to physically abuse the person whom he has stopped for document check for 3 hours as allowed by law, that's completely different story.

No way I think that the West is paradise.  but Russia is just a plain anti-human, abusive state.

[Lily]

I meant russians.

But you bring up another intersting question of whether Americans/Western people might sense or feel this - if anything on a subconscious level.

Did you notice how many Russians who live abroad strive to loose their Russian accent? There is also a tendency among Russians in the US not to live in smaller national communities, like Chineas, Indians or Mexicans would do. Russians tend to mingle with Americans. They seem not to be willing to preserve their national identity. They do everything to stop being perceived as Russians. Yes, some are upset when they hear 'I almost thought you are Russian'.

[MaxxumUSA]

Did you notice how many Russians who live abroad strive to loose their Russian accent? There is also a tendency among Russians in the US not to live in smaller national communities, like Chineas, Indians or Mexicans would do. Russians tend to mingle with Americans. They seem not to be willing to preserve their national identity. They do everything to stop being perceived as Russians. Yes, some are upset when they hear 'I almost thought you are Russian'.

I am NOT a scholar about immigration in the USA by any means.  Matter of fact I abhored anything in my high school and college days that was not math and physics.

But...  I'm not so sure that there are not the great number of russian communities for the reason of shame.

I think much of this has to do with how and when people from Russia come to USA.  I don't recall a large opening of our borders for russians at any time in the past like there was for Italians, Irish, and Chinese for instance.

This I believe created these "communities" that you are referring to here in the USA.  And those are being broken up big time.  The area where I live in my little town was predominantly Irish a couple generations ago.  Now it is simply not so.

My grandfather migrated in 1912 to Johnstown, NY which is about a 20 minute drive from me.  The community he came to had many friends from Italy and the borders were open for him and at that time.  My grandmother died about 5 years ago - in the same town.  She stayed in that area because of this community of people she knew.

Years ago I lived in Chicago for a short amount of time.  That city was heavily segregated at one point in time and still has its sections to some extent.  Italian, Irish, Black, etc.  And different sections did not visit others unless they were looking for trouble.

For mexicans one big reason for the communities is that may of these people are coming into the country illegally - and they require shelter from their family and friends as they migrate - so they stick close.

Was there ever a time when our borders were open to Russian immigrants?  Or - when the iron curtain existed were Russians even allowed to leave the country?  I don't know - like I said I am not a scholar at this...  just my thoughts - even though they may be wrong.

It would be educational for me if someone has more insight or knowledge about this issue.

[wxman]

Did you notice how many Russians who live abroad strive to loose their Russian accent? There is also a tendency among Russians in the US not to live in smaller national communities, like Chineas, Indians or Mexicans would do. Russians tend to mingle with Americans. They seem not to be willing to preserve their national identity. They do everything to stop being perceived as Russians. Yes, some are upset when they hear 'I almost thought you are Russian'.

Lily,

Do you feel that is why the FSU is becoming westernized so quickly? Everytime I visit my fiancee in Ukraine it saddens me to see how quickly the country is being westernized. By westernized, I don't mean Americanized, but western Europe. Why do they feel that westernization is such a good thing? I can't get a clear answer from my fiancee, but could it be a lack of true pride in their own culture, or perhaps the feeling of a new country trying to find it's identity after splitting from Russia?

An example of how little regard they have for their own workers, is when my fiancee was looking for a small appliance.  The appliance company was foreign owned, but she would not buy it because it was made in Ukraine and didn't trust the quality if the workmanship.