Who creates the negative stereotypes of Russian women?

[jb]

Was there ever a time when our borders were open to Russian immigrants?

Yes, remember Alaska?  We bought it from Russia and it was full of Russians.  Russians continued to arrive to be with their families for years afterwards.

when the iron curtain existed were Russians even allowed to leave the country?

Yes, as recently as the 1970's and 1980's Russians were allowed to immigrate here, all they had to do was claim religious persecution.  Mostly those who immigrated were Russian Jews.  I think the Sov's were glad to see them go.

Lily,

What you describe of Russian immigrants not wanting to retain their Russian roots is the American ideal, it's called assimilation, it's all part of the melting pot concept where we become a nation of "One, from Many".   Ever hear the phrase; "E Pluribus Unem"?   It's the American motto, right up there with "In God We Trust".  It's too bad the Mexican, Vietnamese, Korean, Chinese, etc., cannot follow in the footsteps, and share the better plan, of the wiser Russians which have come here.  You should not denigrate a Russian emigree for wanting to become a full citizen of his or her adopted country, it has noting to do with shame and all to do with pride in their new status.

jb is waving a flag, (just in case you didn't notice)

[Serebro]

When I am visiting western countries, I hate it when someone suddenly recognizes a Russian in me. I feel ashamed. 

Really?! Why?
I have never felt uncomfortable. The only thing that I didn't like(even hated) was when people asked questions concerning me, my life, my country and what I was doing there many many times a day. I was tired of telling them the same things 50 times a day so I decided to make up wild stories, sometimes they were really crazy, but at least I REALLY liked the effect they produced on foreigners.I still remember the eyes of that old american lady and the expression she had on her face after being told "my story".
Still I have nothing to be ashamed of, if people have superstitions these are their problems and not my business.

[KenC]

Did you notice how many Russians who live abroad strive to loose their Russian accent? There is also a tendency among Russians in the US not to live in smaller national communities, like Chineas, Indians or Mexicans would do. Russians tend to mingle with Americans. They seem not to be willing to preserve their national identity. They do everything to stop being perceived as Russians. Yes, some are upset when they hear 'I almost thought you are Russian'.

Lily,
I disagree.  There are many Russian communities throughout the US.  Ever hear of Brighten Beach?  There's a Russian community in L.A. and San Fransisco as well as Seattle.  In the Detroit area there is a strong community of Russian Jews called Oak Park.

Lena is very much a Russian patriot and is not shy to show her true colors to anyone.  She is proud to be Russian and never ever tries to hide it to anyone.  In fact she has gotten onto many a spirited debate on the attributes of Russia.  Even with fellow Russians that do seem to disparage Russia since coming to America.
KenC
(BTW I have always been proud of my Russian heritage even during the Cold War and I taught my children to be proud of their Russian heritage too)

[Mir]

They seem not to be willing to preserve their national identity. They do everything to stop being perceived as Russians. Yes, some are upset when they hear 'I almost thought you are Russian'.[/quot


Not true at all.
I know a few Russian-UK couples from a UK based forum. There is a strong argument there as how much the Russians retain their national heritage. One gent married a lady who moved to UK with a teenaged daughter, soon the MIL moved to UK and with them. This man has totally gone bonkers as he says that it is a mini-Russia in their household. The wife, the MIL and the daughter talk constantly in Russian and exclude him. Not only it is a language issue but also the Russian old ladies tales etc. are believed and acted on rather then British or modern traditions etc.
Although I am not married to a Russian lady I have met a few Russian girls. Even when I met them in the days when Russian economy was in total disarray they were all proud of their country, its culture and its achievements.

[Mir]

Yes, remember Alaska?  We bought it from Russia and it was full of Russians.  Russians continued to arrive to be with their families for years afterwards.

I beg to differ.
After US purchased Alaska in 1867 the majority of Russians living in Alaska returned to Russia and very few if any new immigrants from Russia replaced them.
The major Russian immigration to US (as well as Europe) started after 1881 when widespread anti-Jewish pogroms started in Russia and indeed almost all of these Russian immigrants were Jews(Yids).
In those days US had an open door policy to immigrants so getting in was not a problem as long as one wanted to and had the means to get there.

[Mir]

But to get there was not so easy for Russians

Many Soviet Jews who wanted to emigrate believed that Russian anti-Semitism was more deeply rooted than the Bolshevik ideology.
Under Soviet rule in 1960s and 1970s, strict government controls made immigration difficult. As many as 400,000 Jews wanted to leave the USSR, but for many years were refused permission to do so, thus earning the name refuseniks. In the détente of the early 1970s, the Soviets agreed to allow as many as 250,000 citizens to emigrate, a move prompted by the Jackson-Vanik amendment to the 1974 Trade act, which demanded that Soviet authorities lift the ban on the immigration of the Jews. In theory, only Jews and Armenians "seeking to reunite" with family members could leave. In practice, many others emigrated, including left-political dissidents, scientists, writers, artists, human-rights activists, and other "undesirables". Unlike the earlier waves of East European Jewish emigrants many of whom spoke Yiddish as their native language, the Russian Jews of the recent immigration spoke Russian and were culturally Russian. Many of them lived in Moscow and Leningrad and other Russian cities.

After Mikhail Gorbachev became the Soviet leader in 1985 and initiated democratic reforms, many Russian political dissidents, the Russian Jews, and other refusniks were allowed to freely emigrate. Democratic reforms in the Soviet Union under Gorbachev reverberated all over Eastern Europe where people also regained their right to freely move and emigrate. By the 1990s, immigrants from the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe settled across major US metropolitan areas like New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Detroit, revitalizing fading neighborhoods, opening businesses, or joining the mainstream American labor force.

In contrast to earlier waves of immigration, many of these newcomers were well educated in technical and scientific fields. An astonishing 55.7% of the newly arrived immigrants from the former Soviet Union in the 1990s described themselves as academics, scientists, professional or technical workers. The younger ones were quickly absorbed into the booming economy of the major American metropolises.

From
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~gstudies/russia/lessons/backgd.htm

[Ste]

Did you notice how many Russians who live abroad strive to loose their Russian accent? There is also a tendency among Russians in the US not to live in smaller national communities, like Chineas, Indians or Mexicans would do. Russians tend to mingle with Americans. They seem not to be willing to preserve their national identity. They do everything to stop being perceived as Russians. Yes, some are upset when they hear 'I almost thought you are Russian'.

Lily I'm afraid that's just not true.

I spend a lot of time in Germany, and half of Lubeck is a Russian enclave, Russian speaking, russian tv, Russian shops.....

Also nr to Hamburg we went a place called Nettelndorn - 100% russian. Additionally a Latvian collegue was complaining of the same thing to me about his collegue, who was saying that Latvia didn't need NATO, because Putin would send planes to free them...

Same here in the UK, there are a few FSU students at the uni Nadia goes to and it's the same there, Russian Disco Nights, Russian Party, all speaking Russian and very definately excluding non-Russian partners etc.  Nadia refuses to go so there are those like yourself who are mixers, but on the whole I'd very definatley put Russians in the insular group from what I've seen.



 





 

[Ste]

They seem not to be willing to preserve their national identity. They do everything to stop being perceived as Russians. Yes, some are upset when they hear 'I almost thought you are Russian'.[/quot


Not true at all.
I know a few Russian-UK couples from a UK based forum. There is a strong argument there as how much the Russians retain their national heritage. One gent married a lady who moved to UK with a teenaged daughter, soon the MIL moved to UK and with them. This man has totally gone bonkers as he says that it is a mini-Russia in their household. The wife, the MIL and the daughter talk constantly in Russian and exclude him. Not only it is a language issue but also the Russian old ladies tales etc. are believed and acted on rather then British or modern traditions etc.
Although I am not married to a Russian lady I have met a few Russian girls. Even when I met them in the days when Russian economy was in total disarray they were all proud of their country, its culture and its achievements.

Hey mir, how did they get the MIL here? Immigration Law is my forte and unless under extreme compassionate circumstances, UK immigration law does not allow family immigration like the US does.

Just interested!

[Mir]

Ste

Once an immigrant gets UK citizenship he/she can apply for his/her parents to get ILR.
What needs to be proved that the parents are unable to live in their own country independently anymore.
Now in case the parent is a widowed mother over 65 the case is quite simple and I know several examples among the various immigrant communities in UK

Nadia refuses to go

I bet you would want her to go so you can go and watch footie at the pub with your mates

[Ste]

Ste

Once an immigrant gets UK citizenship he/she can apply for his/her parents to get ILR.
What needs to be proved that the parents are unable to live in their own country independently anymore.
Now in case the parent is a widowed mother over 65 the case is quite simple and I know several examples among the various immigrant communities in UK

Yeah I know this, Dependant Visa, but they have to be wholly reliant on the petitioner and have no funds or family support at home. Not easy to prove, since FSU oldies usually do have a pension and a free flat...




 

[I/O]

By the Western eyes, Russians are apparently seen as people who live under constant everyday humiliation........I remember my German colleague told me something like, 'I understand that people can live in Siberia. But what I don't understand is how one can voluntarily live there?'

"Ignorant Observers"......Was my initial general conclusion and Lily's comments bare this out to some extent. Within this online community, people are far better informed regarding the realities of Russia than are most others. (Not that I suggest we know much about Russia) Therefore most of us see far past the stereotype perceptions.

Regarding the "Siberia" comment, most of my teenage life, I thought the same way as the "German Colleague".  Although I doubt I could adapt to the temperatures of some areas in winter, particularly the north, there is a number of cities and areas in Siberia that far exceed some of the lauded Western European locations. I suspect these areas may well have changed a good deal in the last 10 years and perhaps prior to that time might have been different.

Lily, I don't entirely agree regarding Russian people not congregating into groups.  Evidence I have seen here in my country suggests otherwise.  Although I do think they tend to be more independant than some other nationalities and certainly assimilate into the national culture/lifestyle better than some ethnic groups.

Lily, I am surprised by your comments in one respect and I appluad your openess to call it how you see it.  I do remember having a discussion with my fiance' when she was here in my country the first time.  I was extolling some of the virtues of her/her family's lifestyle in Russia.  They have a very modern apartment with almost every modern convenience one would expect here. They have spent a good deal on it in recent years and it borders on what we would describe as a luxury apartment.  She put me flat on my backside with her response.  "I/O I understand you, but you are wrong, we in Russia are very primitive campared to here in Australia.  Here you are 2 hundred years in front, maybe more".

She is proud of her Russianess, however I have noticed her caution with being too forward about it.  I suspect her thinking is perhaps not entirely dissimilar to yours. Nevertheless, as with any of us, if someone challenges her nation or insults Russia/ns then it is a whole 'nother story.

I/O

[Turboguy]

When I am visiting western countries, I hate it when someone suddenly recognizes a Russian in me. I feel ashamed. 

VWRW feels exactly the same way.   

[TigerPaws]

Interesting, my lady has never to the best of my memory (which is fading) been ashamed of her Russian accent or heritage no matter where we have traveled.

TigerPaws     

[wxman]

I beg to differ.
After US purchased Alaska in 1867 the majority of Russians living in Alaska returned to Russia and very few if any new immigrants from Russia replaced them.
The major Russian immigration to US (as well as Europe) started after 1881 when widespread anti-Jewish pogroms started in Russia and indeed almost all of these Russian immigrants were Jews(Yids).
In those days US had an open door policy to immigrants so getting in was not a problem as long as one wanted to and had the means to get there.

In 1867, after the end of our civil war, we weren't considered the darlings of the globe. In fact, we were in so much debt, the Tzar could have bought us for pennies on the dollar.

[MaxxumUSA]

Interesting, my lady has never to the best of my memory (which is fading) been ashamed of her Russian accent or heritage no matter where we have traveled.

TigerPaws     

TP...  could you ask her directly?  Maybe ask her to read this thread from lily's comment.

I am very curious about this from a RW's perspective.

[MaxxumUSA]

In 1867, after the end of our civil war, we weren't considered the darlings of the globe. In fact, we were in so much debt, the Tzar could have bought us for pennies on the dollar.

...  but we were not for sale at any price.

This is the heart of our american soul.

[I/O]

...  but we were not for sale at any price.

Yeah right...!!!  And ya' did exactly what we did in the 70's and 80's..........sold as much real estate to the Japaneese as they would buy.

I/O

[MaxxumUSA]

Yeah right...!!!  And ya' did exactly what we did in the 70's and 80's..........sold as much real estate to the Japaneese as they would buy.

I/O

Not on CONUS  (Continental US)

[wxman]

Not on CONUS  (Continental US)

Houston, we have a problem here.

[MaxxumUSA]

Houston, we have a problem here.

Wx...

Not sure what you mean by that.

In the military I first heard the term CONUS.  It means all the states of the union connected to mexico or canada or each other.  It is a valid term that should not be a problem with others who have heard it.

I was stating this with the belief that USA did not own much more than this immediately after the civil war.  Possibly less.  If I am wrong - so be it.  Again...  I am NOT a scholar in world history,  including the country I live in.

[Lily]

Wow, what a lot of comments  Really appreciate it. 

Serebro, I really admire your position, and the LenaC's as well. 
The reason why I still feel some shame, or let's better say, some discomfort of my being Russian, is shown in my post.

Sure folks, you know better on Russian communities in the US and in the West. I heard of Brighton Beach and was living myself in Ukrainian Village in Chicago. I am not going to stand this point  my opinion was based on the info I got from the Russians living abroad.

I still have to learn how I turn my being Russian into some advantage for me 

[Lily]

VWRW feels exactly the same way.   

It is very uneasy to admit it, even to myself. I remember I brought this subject once to my friend in Europe, when I was just unable to hold back my tears.

[Lily]

  "I/O I understand you, but you are wrong, we in Russia are very primitive campared to here in Australia.  Here you are 2 hundred years in front, maybe more".

I also heard quite many times from Russians that the US and in the West are about hundred years ahead from where Russia is now.

I think this is also about the one's profession. For instance, if I'd be a balleydancer, I'd proudly declare my Russianness because Russian balley is a recognized brand, so I'd make it work for me, too. Probably arts, sports, space technologies, physics are quite the same.

[Lily]

BC,

My Girl is of the same opinion.  Whenever I bump into a Russian here I mention it to her thinking it'll make her feel more comfortable if she can have the occassional conversation in Russian.  She says she doesn't want to speak Russian when she gets here because she MUST speak perfect English...

I hope she's not disappointed when she finds out many people here don't speak "perfect English".   

Kuna

Interesting, why does she think she MUST speak perfect English?

[Mir]

Yeah I know this, Dependant Visa, but they have to be wholly reliant on the petitioner and have no funds or family support at home. Not easy to prove, since FSU oldies usually do have a pension and a free flat...

She can sell the flat and it the babushki pension is more of a joke.
Anyway there is a way to do it, majority of such immigrants are from Indian/Pakistani families so maybe you ask one of them how they pulled it off.

Not on CONUS  (Continental US)

I am not sure what do you mean.
The value of US real estate owned by foreigners is almost $100 billion with Japan's share being around 25%. I am sure all of this property is on CONUS.