The end of a beautiful era!

[Wayne B]

 Dave, some humor for you...The other day, Anna stumped her toes while going up the stairs ....she set down rubbing her foot (We all know the feeling)   I asked, are you ok baby?  She replied  'I hurtin my leg fingers'.....yes I busted out laughing.....she saw no humor in it :seething:.....

[Rvrwind]

Pobably because the word for fingers & toes is the same in Russian!! Not humorus at all to her, LOL.

[Jazzyclassy]

It is sad to hear that David, I never actually felt anything bad with your relations , I thought you would marry  faster than anyone of us here , who are in that sort of process.Be strong , everything what happens -its for the best , no matter how evil it might sound right now for  you, though never give up and always have that incredible light inside of you which you definitely possess, rather kind person and with sensitive emotional soul , emotional for a guy , which is of course individual , this I understood by your posts here:) and of course with interesting sense of humour which is great:).

I remember that in one thread I was defending that theory where language factor was not important in the international relations, I still think so, it is just you can blame anything , but not yourselves which is wrong, cos when love has gone, there is no love, no language can save it and can maintain it. Of course many factors can help to build up a strong connection and a great relationship but once love's gone it becomes very hard to keep those relations going in that same tune .......

As many of you said here that it takes two  in the relations, it is absolutely true, not only men should try and visit and call and chat and write letters and do the initiative thing , women should contribute as well , call , send letters, be very interested in the life of their partners, try to be helpful and supportive.

Yes Language has an advantage of course, for sure, but you know if a woman really loves she can overcome everything in order to learn it , I am just sometimes sitting here in my chair while reading the posts of some people, I am just in shock how they tell that they spend thousands to help their ladies with English courses and their ladies still do not have a clue what this or that word means. I mean  it is really sometimes a fault of women , cos they think that they are just amazing and gorgeous just like that and they have nothing to do in order to win friendship and love in order to maintain the relations.

Dear David it will be fine try to concentrate on yourself, cure your soul and maybe really do date the women around you , you must be very interesting person , your speech has individual style, at least your posts, you should find a person who will want and develop your relations and wont give up .

I wish you all the best  

Cheer up  

[Serebro]

It is sad to hear that David, I never actually felt anything bad with your relations , I thought you would marry  faster than anyone of us here , who are in that sort of process.Be strong , everything what happens -its for the best , no matter how evil it might sound right now for  you, though never give up and always have that incredible light inside of you which you definitely possess, rather kind person and with sensitive emotional soul , emotional for a guy , which is of course individual , this I understood by your posts here:) and of course with interesting sense of humour which is great:).

I agree with Jazzy, Dave.
I am really sorry to hear that .. well.. for some personal reason I still remember those feelings that you have when you lose something important in your life, your dreams and hopes. But in fact I am 100% sure that the person like you will not have big troubles with getting what he wants as you deserve a great life and great loving relationship so the God will help you.
Good luck.
Olya

[BillyB]

Dave, you made three VO trips and now you want to try WMVM. I suggest you start by writing as many ladies as possible. You want to find a gem? You're not going to find her by randomly choosing one or a few profiles unless you're lucky.

After you write a women you like, a few will write back who's really attracted to you. It's very important a woman is physically attracted to you instead of just tolerating your looks. Make sure you cut those horns off.

After you find some you really like and that you feel is sincerely interested in you, call them often. If she really likes you, she will want you to call often and she may even giggle when you call or she may get out of the bath soaking wet with only a towel around her just to talk to you now because she wants to hear you voice.

Some advantages of writing many is that you can be yourself and don't need to hype yourself up like so many other men when introducing yourself to a woman. If you live a modest life and is family oriented, say so. You will get rid of gold diggers and women who want to live the high life. I laid it out on the line on a one page intro letter with some pics of myself in my construction clothes. I'm sure I got rid of a few women that way.

Yes, women are turned off by men who communicate with many women but women are also turn on by a man in demand. If a woman you're writing to ask you if you're communicating with others, be honest. But also tell them you're not capable of figuring out through letters, phone, and a few dates on who's the best woman out there and you are serious in your search. If she has any brains, she will understand that you're human and have flaws and that you recognize your flaws and willing to adjust. If she knows she has competition and that you're a fine catch, she will not release you so quickly. A member PM'd me and mention a woman who he once was pursuing with no luck is now pursuing him hard after she found out he made a commitment with another. There was one woman who was pursuing me hard after I told her I made a commitment to my current fiancee and I won't waste her time anymore with coresspondence since I'm a one woman type of man. She really was impressed with my integrity and she asked me multiple times months after if I'd come visit her. If I was a playboy, I could've visited her and probably had my way with her. There are signs women put out when they really want you.

Another member here PM'd me and said he visited the FSU about a dozen times with and without agencies and met many of the wrong type of women by accident. He then read my story and wrote to even more women than I. He found a gem and he never knew women like the one he found exsisted in the FSU. He described her in a way that is just like my fiancee, she's a real sweetheart. And he is happy with the level of commitment from her on the phone, through letters and the commitment she expresses when he visits. She speaks little English but she is studying very hard and he notices much improvement.

Many guys who VO try too hard to court a woman and it shows as an act of desperation and is a turn off. A woman wants to be won, she doesn't want to know that you settled for her becasue no other woman will have you. Some of these men try to be a person they're not and are easy targets for gold diggers and GCG's and most likely will marry a woman that will not give them the level of commitment they give her. Men who visit one also force themselves to enter into a less than desirable relationship since they don't have any other options on the table.

Dave, maybe the woman who broke off relations with you saw the warning signs of the lack of common language and she's not willing to study hard enough to get to know the real you. YOu seem like a good guy and I'm sure you tried your best to make it work. Some women will give you their all and are out there. The goal is to find that woman who will give their all for you, who's sincere, and who's very attracted to you. Write a bunch of ladies, and maybe you will VM or maybe like me and another member who wrote more than me will end up going VO in the end since we found a woman that stood above the others.

[CaptB]

I don't see lack of a common language as a problem. My friend jb advocates finding a woman who already speaks some English. I can't disagree with this idea. There are manywomen in the FSU with a least a modicum of English proficiency. Targeting that group will make this process easier. BUT......I do have AW/RW couples as friends......where the woman had little or no knowledge of English.....when they first met. It was not easy at times.......but they persevered.......and made it. But all of these couples had several things in common. Both parties were highly motivated.......and their interest in each other....was EQUAL. But then again.....should'nt these qualites be present in all relationships......regardless of a language barrier. If your interest (chemistry) is not "equal" to begin with........lack of a common language will just about guarantee failure. Even though....like jb....I advocate choosing prospects that can already communicate to a certain degree in English (why not....when you have the choice)......certain couples do make it.....even when this is not the case. Language is'nt the biggest barrier. Chemistry seems to be an overinding factor for some of these couple's success. Out of that chemistry is born a strong motivation to do whatever it takes......to make things work.

Lack of a common language....I'll admit.....is on the short list......as reasons for failure. Long periods of time between visits.....also makes the list. But number one...IMHO.....is the failure of individuals to correctly quage the other parties "level" of interest........in "them". You can blame lack of a common language......long periods between visits.....and other factors. More often it just comes down to "chemistry". She may really "like" you......and enjoy your company.......but not enough chemistry is present........for "more" than friendship. All too often men focus on "their" level of feelings.......you need to focus on "her" level. Chemistry is tricky....and complicated. Men want to know the "why".......which is not the important thing. Knowing the "why".......still won't change anything. The answer to chemistry is simply......"yes"......or "no". When you both correctly assess the chemistry issue (equally strong)........the rest is just "details".

In my first RW relationship.....I was lucky......yes "lucky"......to eventually make the assessment that the chemistry between us was not "equal". A bitter pill? Not really. As I said.......chemistry is complex......but the answer is simple............."yes...or no". Both parties can be great people. Chemistry is not a reflection on the other person......it is just felt.....or not felt. When you understand the nature of chemistry......moving on to continue your pursuit becomes easier. No wasted time trying to change a situation......that is not going to change. Finally understanding the nature of chemistry.....and accepting it.....I was able to move on with a possitive attitude. Within a short time....I was again excited....about continuing this process.


Capt B

[Wayne B]

Capt B, this is a good post...and chemistry is the ingredient to love...the rest will come with patience and time, if 'both' or willing to work hard for what they feel in one another

[MaxxumUSA]

Hmm...

Sorry to hear daveman.

From my point of view, and strong opinion, regular visits - if possible - will greatly improve one's chances.

I remember after my second visit to Elena in April there was a point that she was getting nervous that we would not see each other for a long time.  It was only a few days - but she started to spend less time with me on webcams.  I could tell I needed to plan another visit soon.  I noticed this happening on like a Tuesday...  then by Thursday I knew that I better get my butt over soon.  So I told her on thursday that I would plan my third visit the next day.

Immediately I could tell she felt much better and it helped her relax about the situation - knowing that I would be there soon.  The next day I got the tickets for a month later, then we began the count down.  If I did not have the financial issues I had a few months ago, I would probably have visited her monthly for at least one week.

This third visit was great - because during that visit she received packet 4 for her interview - so before I left we were already planning my next visit - which BTW is in 3 weeks.

As for the language barrier - it did exist a little on my very first visit.  My first visit when we wanted to talk about serious matters we sat in front of her laptop and translated back and forth.  Since even before we met - we spent about 30-45 minutes on average per day on webcams and texting on skype.  This has been extremely beneficial.  One great benefit is her english is actually very good now.  Figure 5-10 new words in every one of our lengthy conversations.  Between webcams and cell phones we keep in touch throughout all the time that we are both awake.  This has been fantastic in us learning about each other and also keeping that connection alive.

Elena was upset at me because i did not call her to wake her up this morning.  So we had a little argument on cell phone.  I told her I needed to explain with text on skype and she said no - she wanted me to explain now.  So I guess there are downsides to her knowing english so well.  LOL  But...  we were able to make it through some serious conversation without the need of translating our text.

She understands me well enough that I can make her laugh on cell phone - without the need of body language.  And...  I agree laughter is very important.

[Hub]

Dave, you made three VO trips and now you want to try WMVM. I suggest you start by writing as many ladies as possible. You want to find a gem? You're not going to find her by randomly choosing one or a few profiles unless you're lucky.

I only quoted the first paragraph of BillyB's post.  I think it is one of the best posts ever on this topic.  A very, very clever (as the RW say) man.

[CaptB]

Maxxum,

I agree about planning subsequent visits as early as possible. I have a flexible work schedule so I could pretty much pick a month for the next visit even before departing on a current visit. An exact date of return was chosen within a month after my return home. I would then e-mail a copy of the e-ticket/itinnerary to my RW (now wife). In this way....all the worry was removed from this subject.


Capt B

[DKMM]

Yeah I'm lining up in the frequent visit camp as well.  You can't go 3 or 4 months without your lover or the love dies.  For me I would go crazy waiting more than 5 weeks.  I'm leaving in the morning to see my fiancee and its been nearly that long (5 wks) and honestly the time apart was starting to drag me down.

Compounded with the language problem and yeah, its easy to see how things fell apart Daveman.  Maybe she was into it long enough for her to see if she wanted to get married and didn't.

You can't have a "girlfriend" in Russia for very long...

[I/O]

You can't go 3 or 4 months without your lover or the love dies.

Don't agree with this at all. Fact is mine and I are living proof of otherwise. There has been frequent visits in quick succession followed by up to 6 months and more between visits.  It's hell but "Absence can make the heart grow fonder". The language one is a far bigger issue than time elapsed between visits, although it can be related in so far as if you can't communicate well, that makes the non face time all the more difficult.

I/O

[Jazzyclassy]

I support I/O  comment here, my boy also visited me during this 2 years of our relations with the gap of 6 months as well , just its individual somebody can wait and be so much devoted to a partner and love him/her someone can not, they need everything at once, like met only today married tomorrow and after tomorrow have a kid , am sorry boys and girls its impossible , relations take time

[Daveman]

Again, thanks to everyone for the words of encouragement and kind compliments.  I certainly appreciate them all.

Wow, this thread really has some truly valuable input.  If anyone just sat down and read the responses you guys have made here, their FSU/Relationship intelligence level would raise 50 points immediately.

My own personal take on the language thing... Really, KenC summed up exactly how I think about it.

I don't know if you guys read where I mentioned in another thread that I wrote to her in the first place because her agency had reversed the status of her English and Russian competency levels..  her profile stated English Fluent/Russian Basic, and it wasn't until about 10 letters into it that I realized what had happened, and then I decided she might be worth taking a shot at it..

But really, If I am absolutely honest here... I have a broken dream, but not a broken heart. There is a vast difference.  I cared about her, but I was not in love with her.  That's not just male bravado claiming to not be hurt over this.. it's actually true..  What do I really feel the most right now?  Disappointment ........ and believe it or not .... *relief*.  Sure, I'm sad that it didn't work and that my beautiful dream is dead... but... All I really lost was a dream... because that's all we really had together... dreams, nothing tangible unless we could be together in person... and there was always the chance that after we could communicate, the woman in the dream and the woman with whom I'm *now* fluently communicating are not the same person.  This is just an extremely high risk endeavor.  I knew the risks going into it, accepted them, and the odds beat me this time.  I made a choice and it didn't work. That's it really.  I've learned something I DON'T want, and that's an education just the same.

The bottom line is, regardless of what she felt, whether her interest was there, whatever, this relationship was not fulfilling to ME in the PRESENT tense.  Everything about it from my perspective was based on the FUTURE... there was NOTHING in the present except those illusory dreams of the future.  Does that make sense?  It should...

It is very true that if a man limits his search to ladies who do not speak his language, he is cutting off maybe even the majority of good women in Ukraine or Russia. So -- certainly a man should absolutely pursue these non English speaking ladies.,.. IF he can speak RUSSIAN!  very WELL! 

I'm not saying this because of bitter feelings.. I really have none, believe it or not... this is my honest opinion and after having tried this (and my Russian is currently better than at least 90% of guys in this pursuit), I will NOT do this again... absolutely, positively, 100% HET ....  I plan to study Russian in depth and become nearly fluent for a business reason, and then I would be open to dating a woman who can't speak English... but, not until then.  Any of you "guests" reading this.. I promise you this is not sour grapes over a failed relationship... it's just pure unadulterated logical reasoning.. I emphasize again.. I had DREAMS of a relationship, but not a real relationship!  I don't really know how else to say that.

Well, enough about the language thing.. I'm sure there were other factors as well.. Chemistry, her level of interest, etc etc... all played a role.. I don't think there's ever any one reason, or any one person to blame.  It takes two to make or break a relationship, so, we both suck it up and move on to seek out our true destiny.  I wish her only the best.

as far as VO vs VM.. certainly I don't think VO was the cause of the failure with this woman, but it could very well be the reason for my failure to find MY woman... I'm just thinking about this.... I've spent over 4 months on the ground in the FSU... if I had just dated normally, even if only two ladies each week (not cramming 5 into a day), I would have met and learned more about approximately 32 different ladies...  32 vs 3.... hmmmm, I'm simply looking at the odds of tracking down Ms Right.  Although I'm very much a one woman kind of man (I've never once had casual sex or a one night stand in my life)... I have to change my approach and way of looking at this if I want to find MY lady... and I think you can really only accomplish that face to face meeting different ones until that special one just knocks your socks off and you know it.

That's my ramble for today.. :-)  again, thanks for all the valuable input into this thread..

Dave

[TigerPaws]

Daveman,

I am not going to try and convince you about the language issue, you have given it a try and it is not for you, fair enough and do not let anyone try to tell you your time and efforts were worthless, you learned something and that is all that matters. Hells Bells I made my fair share of mistakes but I learned something from each and every one of them and eventually I got it right so hang in there and you will do fine.

Good luck and as we say in the sailing community "May fair Winds and Clear Skies Follow You Throughout Your Journey".

TigerPaws

[Serebro]

 

I'm not saying this because of bitter feelings.. I really have none, believe it or not... this is my honest opinion and after having tried this (and my Russian is currently better than at least 90% of guys in this pursuit), I will NOT do this again... absolutely, positively, 100% HET ....  I plan to study Russian in depth and become nearly fluent for a business reason, and then I would be open to dating a woman who can't speak English... but, not until then. 

This is very brave of you, Dave, you will defnitely stand out of a crowd then and will show your great respect and I hope that you will find a good woman who will appreciate this and you will have a great family though speaking the same language doesn't always mean that you will have mutual understanding...but.. do you realize how much time it may take you to master a foreign language?!

[ScottinCrimea]

Daveman, Damn! You're too philosphical for me!  Can't you just get drunk, yell and punch a hole in the wall like the rest of us?  :seething:

[Serebro]

Daveman, Damn! You're too philosphical for me!  Can't you just get drunk, yell and punch a hole in the wall like the rest of us?  :seething:

Scott, you sound too Russian for this forum

[TigerPaws]

That comes from living in Ukraine for too long, he is starting to sould like the locals.   

[ScottinCrimea]

My wife says the same thing.  I'm still not sure if she means it as a complement or not. 

[catzenmouse]

I cared about her, but I was not in love with her.

That little tidbit worries me some. Why would you be talking about and working towards a K1? That really throws me. This is for people who are ready to commit to marriage. Not for a trial, see how it works out, look to the future kind of thing.

Time to take a couple more steps back. This is not clear, honest, or successful thinking.

FWIW,
 Ken

[TigerPaws]

I remember a guy pre 9/11 who was using the then generous K1 system to get girls for 3 months at a time for fun and sex. This guy was well off and smooth, he would spend a month or so in Russia then line up 3 to 5 girls and have them come over to Los Angeles for 3 months at a time. All of the girls were totally hot, babes to the max, he would have a ball for 3 months then ship them home, then on to the next girl.

I know of a dozen girls he did this to, he was a slime ball and con artiest but he did have fun for a while, I lost track of him several years ago so I do not know how the saga ended.

TigerPaws

[KenC]

Sorry Tiger,
But someone is pulling your chain on that one.  That would never had been allowed even years ago.  I also know a guy that tried that tactic.  On the third K-1 he was told it was his last.  He has since moved to Thailand.  Go figure.
KenC

[Jumper]

Daveman-
sorry for the loss,
it is sad,, and can be disheartening..
but honestly..
you gained a lot.

you admit you merely lost a dream.,
and lost a *possibilty*  


IMHO-

the fact you can easily recognize that, for what it REALLY  is,
 and was,
is perhaps the most important thing any guy doing this ,
needs to know, and recognize,  in the first place..

and  puts you about a miilion worlds ahaed of the average guy going to the FSU to look for a relationship.


You have caught the fly,with the chopsticks grasshoppa !!

that's more a reason to celebrate , than mourn..
 


Your last post should be a sticky and required reading for all newbies!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The reality of life is-
 how often does a local realtionship lead to successful marriage?

wether a person lives ,down the street, or across an ocean ,
is not going to change the fundamentals of two people clicking , or having a strong enough commitment to be together long term..

so guys need to realize chasing a dream across the water, is just as likely to end the same way thier last relationmshipo with a local person did,. in breakup..
for whatever reasons..
and they would never put the same pressure ,or expectations,
 on a local relationship from its inception.
those would grow gradually over time.

flying anywhere else in the world, and having long time spans between when you see each other,
much less any communication problems..
only adds to the complications and difficulty..

when things dont work out ,it shouldnt be a surprise,,
but a learning experience..
when they DO work out , it should be a happy surprise..

I'm not trying to be negative, just trying to be realistic,
 and get that same light to come on,, that Ken was working on..


and yeah, i did have some  functional /fundamental Russian before
hand, and my wife had pretty good english..

Dave with the russian you have now? and following up with more..
you will diffinantly broaden your choices and chances..


riverwind said

Probably because the word for fingers & toes is the same in Russian!! Not humorus at all to her, LOL.

My wife still uses *my fingers* ,, for *toes* often..
and even laughs at herself , as she knows better..

but that is a PRIME example of why i tell guys reapatedly to learn some rudementary Russian.

is it nessasary? no.
will you likely be fluent? no,likely never.
will you converse with her primarly at first or even later,
in russian ? not likely..

then why the hell learn any of it?

because you will be able to UNDERSTAND her far far better..
you will understand her ENGLISH  better..
it ca nhelp you  understand her REAL meaning and intent,
  even when the words or sentence structure is incorrect.
(yes it often helps  in both humourous, and seriuos ,exchanges..  and both equally important in developing a relationship..?)

knowing how Russian is spoken.. gramatically,
knowing variuos words that cross over differently ,
have some different commobn usage,,
or can have several meanings..
all make communaction IN ENGLISH far better even if you cant speak Russian ..but have a rudimentary or fundamental understanding of it,
which IS attainable by anyone intelligent enough to fly overseas..
if they put half the effort into learning it as they do to posting here

also it wil make you feel more comfortable and yourself in a foriegn land,, and that, in itself , during the dating /courtship time frame would be invaluable i would think..

:::takes a few steps down off soap box ,
that had nothing to do with davemans post,, sorry:::::::::


but anyway, i'd like to thank
daveman for being so open about personal things that are often uncomfortable to discuss
 
for a new guy getting his feet wet into this..
 those posts ,and some great replies,and debate,
 should really help out in thier endeavors..

 


ahh and a side note,, yeah if you cant really communicate it makes humour difficult , and most people marry and stay married to someone who can put them at ease, nmake them laugh..

that shouldnt surprise anyone either.. as humans we of course tend to  rather have someone as a partner, who is fun for us to be around.

[ScottinCrimea]

AJ,  I agree with everything you have said.  Knowing a little Russian has definitely helped me to understand my wife's English and to avoid some major misunderstandings.

ahh and a side note,, yeah if you cant really communicate it makes humour difficult , and most people marry and stay married to someone who can put them at ease, nmake them laugh..

that shouldnt surprise anyone either.. as humans we of course tend to  rather have someone as a partner, who is fun for us to be around.

And if the only time she laughs is during sex, you have a real problem!