The end of a beautiful era!

[Daveman]

Well, suffice it to say that my relationship with the Russian Lady has ended.

The postmortem analysis would indicate that the language barrier was our largest hurdle and the fact that we could not *meaningfully* communicate regularly except through translated letters lead to a change of her feelings over time.  I was still feeling good about our possibilities, but she had lost something.  It has been 4 months since I saw her last, and really, that is simply too long to go without seeing each other and especially so if you cannot really communicate.  Calling regularly on the phone didn't really help as we could not have truly emotionally satisfying conversations.  We could only hear each other's voices for a few minutes, exhaust my Russian and her English, but nothing really of substance.  She decided that her feelings for me have changed.

I give her credit and respect for being honest about it.  The next visit was scheduled for September, and would have been for an extended period, but we simply didn't make it that long.  Again, my thought here is that probably three months would be the limit between visits because that is just about the time we began to lose focus.  Not that we are a cookie cutter for everyone, but, if I think if you can't visit regularly, and you cannot meaningfully communicate except for translated letters, you probably have very little chance of making it work long term. Once the fascination wears off, and the work begins, perhaps it's not so thrilling as the fantasy for a lady when the realities of the situation set in.

There's no doubt she's a treasure of a woman, but simply not MY treasure.  There's nothing wrong with her as a woman or a partner.  I cannot say a single bad thing about her, even if I wanted to. I will say that more than likely the failure here is mine because I couldn't visit her sooner to keep the spirit strong.  Of course I am a little down at the moment, but I certainly won't stay that way.  I'll let the cobwebs clear for a bit, and then I'll try a different approach. I have made three VO trips, and though this really was a fun and exciting adventure while it lasted, I'm not going to do another visit one trip.  I'll take some time, go over, and just date.  Perhaps I'll put out newspaper ads.  I really do like that idea. It sounds like it would be fun not to mention have a higher possibility of success through meeting many different ladies.

Unless I have a chance over the next few months to really study Russian in depth so that I can carry on deep conversations, I'll probably limit my search to those ladies who already have at least a good ability with English (whatever number level that would be) so that we can have always have emotionally stimulating conversations.

You know, for what it's worth, I think the one thing missing from the conversations in this type of relationship is simply an abundance of laughter together.  Sure, some jokes can be understood, but overall, I think that's one of the very detrimental missing elements of the communication is plain and simple, good old fashioned sharing of laughter together.  I think laughter together is probably more important than almost anything else.  At least it is for me. And that was sorely missing from us when we were not face to face.

So, anyhoohow, I've learned quite a bit from this experience and through the outcome turned out less than desirable, I don't regret a moment of my time with her. She's a class act.  Close that chapter, and I'll begin to write another soon.

Dave

[Mir]

Daveman

Sorry to hear about this.

However I am unable to understand how a VM trip would make a difference in this situation.
I mean you might find 2 or 3 treasures instead of one, would then have to chose or visit them again and then chose and then start on relation building. So if you have the same issues then the results may not be better.
Certainly one can judge English language skills before the first meeting and decide only to meet who can speak good English (even as VO)

[Kuna]

Daveman,

I'm really sorry to hear your bad news but I have immense respect for you and your approach.

Whether you travel VO or VM it's important (IMHO) to find someone who has sufficient language abilities in the beginning..  and hopefully improving abilities over time.

Can I ask if she was learning or taking lessons???  I'm sorry, how long in total had you known her?

Language is a critical aspect to a relationship developing as it should, and I wish you the best of luck in your continued search.

Kuna

[I/O]

Dave: On the lighter side, I guess that probably means those couple of cold ones in Omsk are off the agenda now? Bummer. 

You don't need to hear, "Better now than later", but that in fact is the reality.  Frankly I am more inclind to think it is to do with who she is and who you are rather than logistical circumstances.  Language is a big factor.  Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay under estimated by far too many.  I note you have been very aware of this from the start.

It is always a pitty when something nice ends.  My old Mum always said to me, as one door closes, another is sure to open.  She has usually proven to be right, but it can be a little frustrating waiting for that other door to open.

All the best.

I/O

[ScottinCrimea]

Daveman, sorry to hear of the loss, but then I have always been one to stress the importance of good communication, meaning having a woman who speaks at least adequate English.  The time between my first visit to see my wife and my second was over 4 months, but I bought her a webcam and we chatted on line, with webcam, every day during that time.  This would have been impossible if her English skills weren't up to speed.  This was the time that I truly fell in love with her, and I think, her with me.  By not having that, you were unable to "keep the spirit strong".  I think even if you decide to go with the WMVM approach, ultimately you would decide on one woman to focus on, and if the communication was not there you would end up with the same result, so think things through, decide on the process that will work best for you, learn from your mistakes, and give it another shot.  As one who is happily married to an FSUW, I can assure you that it is worth it.

[jb]

I can't count the number of threads we have seen over the years debating the value of having a common language.  In fact, I remember starting one some time ago and got told by a number of men that I was all wet, that I didn't have a clue about what it takes to make a successful marriage.   The theme, mostly, for those who advocate going after non-English speakers, was that a man was going to miss out on meeting a lot of nice women if he limited his search to only those who speak English.  Well,,, I'm not going to beat Daveman up about his poor choices, however the result was fairly predictable.

Sorry, Dave, better luck next time.

[USCFAN]

Dave -

Thanks for sharing your experience. Your thoughts were very well written. For myself and anyone else just starting this process, your words and emotions within them give us a lot to consider.

I'm sorry for you loss, but you seem to have the right attitude. Taking a break, clearing your thoughts, and using this as a learning experience will certainly help as you take the next step.

Best of luck,

Steve

[I/O]

The theme, mostly, for those who advocate going after non-English speakers

Didn't go after a Non English speaker, but that's what I ended up getting seriously involved with and I have said too many times to count.  Dont' do it. With the options available, it is madness.  We'll get there in the end and are getting there so to say, but frankly I would think 98% of people on both sides of this pursuit wouldn't have the time, patience or stickability.

We can, as of the last 6 months or so, have a fluent phone conversation and pretty much discuss whatever we want from the political history of Russia through child raising in Australia, but......................I would never do it again, never.  Reckon on a year to get to know the person enough to even consider marriage, much less take that actual step. 

We'll be the better part of 2 1/2 years from meeting to marriage and then a whole 'nother process starts.  Most guys who I've spoken to have responded, well if it'll take 2 years or more, it ain't for me.  We'll get through, but my example is NOT what to do.  It is a good warning to others of what you can avoid. I wouldn't change the lady I'll marry for anything in the world, but, her stickability has been without peer in my lifetime.  Not too many have her level of staying power as we've seen exampled here.  No common language, 99% of the time no thing in common.

I/O

[Rvrwind]

Sorry Dave, but at least you seeyour errors & can correct themin the future. Better luck next time around.

[catzenmouse]

I can't count the number of threads we have seen over the years debating the value of having a common language.  In fact, I remember starting one some time ago and got told by a number of men that I was all wet, that I didn't have a clue about what it takes to make a successful marriage.

Must have been raining that day while you were out at the job site.

The theme, mostly, for those who advocate going after non-English speakers, was that a man was going to miss out on meeting a lot of nice women if he limited his search to only those who speak English.  Well,,, I'm not going to beat Daveman up about his poor choices, however the result was fairly predictable.

Sorry, Dave, better luck next time.

Just a quick thought about language, what we expect from them, and what we offer up from our end:

While it is quite true in 99% of the cases that the lady will need to learn the language of your country and we often gauge the seriousness of the lady by how much effort she puts into this learning it seems we often get a might bit too selfish in this expectation.

We seem to believe that they should spend almost every waking moment preparing to be with us when in fact they already have very full and busy lives before we show up on the door step. They have to add this extra time for lessons and studying to their existing life schedule.

How many of us men have taken on the reverse dedication to learn HER language? Especially while in the early stages of the relationship. We hear a lot about struggling to communicate using books, hand helds, and live translators so where is our motivation to improve this communication? Sure seems easy to pass the buck here, pay for some lessons, wait and hope that in the end it is the person we believe we are talking to.

Dave, please don't take this personally as this is not aimed at you but your situation does fit in here along with dozens of others that have come and gone over the years.

Just something to think about as you wind your way through the maze if FSUW.

Ken

P. S. Dave, you already know how disappointed we both are in how this all worked out. I've never met her but my wife spent a fair bit of time with her recently and like Dave said, she is a very fine woman in all the ways that count.

[Phil dAmore]

I think the one thing missing from the conversations in this type of relationship is simply an abundance of laughter together.  Sure, some jokes can be understood, but overall, I think that's one of the very detrimental missing elements of the communication is plain and simple, good old fashioned sharing of laughter together.  I think laughter together is probably more important than almost anything else.

Absolutely true. If you can't laugh together... or if you can't make her laugh, then the relationship is doomed.

Better luck next time, Dave. 

[Shadow]

Dave, especially in long distance relaitonships, you need to keep the flame burning. This means that as soon as you felt she was losing interest in her letter, you should find a way to spark the relationship again.

As Russians will say 'it was not meant to be'. You got a good experience and should now try to find out where you made the mistakes. Could have been language, coud have been taking things for granted too much.

Take some time to grief, then get back up and find the one that will stay through the end.

[KenC]

Daveman,
That's a bummer dude.  You seem to have the right attitude and are making the correct adjustments to improve your chances next time.  Best of luck to you.

My take on the language thing is that falling in love with someone is a highly complex endeavor.  One really has to be able to look deep into each other's souls to truly know each other well enough to be in love.  That simply cannot be accomplished without a common language.  What do you get with translated letters or conversations?  Maybe 10% of the real communication necessary?  What is lost in translation is all the nuances of each others personality that make the difference between liking someone instead of knowing them truly enough to fall in love.  It is almost as though you get all the facts but none of the emotion necessary to fall in love.  To me, it is the emotional side of this that makes it or breaks it.  Hell, it is damn hard to recognize even in a common language next to impossible otherwise.

Falling in love has many stages.  First there is interest and then there is infatuation.  As it develops, there is a certain likability that evolves.  Then maybe admiration for each other.  But to make that final step into love, is a very tricky, complex and one must almost rely on their instinctive abilities to recognize.  How anyone can make that final step without a common language is beyond me.  I think most couples without a common language never really make it past the infatuation stage.  I just don't think love is a possibility without a common language.  (With all due respect to I/O, he waited until his lady's English was up to snuff, so in the end, they did have a common language)

Your story is kind of ironic to me because I have always maintained that the communication between the first and second trip was critical in this process.  That is the time period where this endeavor changes from fantasy to reality.  The couple has met and passed the "in person" test.  They know they have something going on between them.  The communication during this time period should identify just what that "something" is.  They should be able to truly get to know each other if the time is used properly.  I just cannot see how the conversations can have the depth necessary without a common language.
KenC

[Makkin]

Dave,

  Thanks for sharing and also thanks for being honest.

  I have little doubt that you will come up aces in the end as you have that "something special"

Makkin

[Wayne B]

Dave, Im the rookie married man here for now....I can tell you that the men on here that have been married for a while, have had success because the could communicate with their partners.....The first month that Anna came here, everything was 'hunky doorey'..... One day in the second month, I went out to mow the grass and everything was fine....A couple hours later, I came back in, to a woman crying 'cow tears'....I  was waiting for this, I was warned by the MOF's on here....Now what to do? I knew that she was missing her family and friends....I do believe that if we could not have been able to communicate to each other....thing's would have headed 'south' very quickly     When you hear one of the experienced married men, say it takes patience......you can triple that   I thought that the langauge barrier would not be that big of a deal in time......The problem being is you have no time.....without being able to communicate....    Dave, you will bounce back and be back in the saddle soon Wayne.

[I/O]

I just cannot see how the conversations can have the depth necessary without a common language.
KenC

In a phrase, they can't.

From Catz:

While it is quite true in 99% of the cases that the lady will need to learn the language of your country and we often gauge the seriousness of the lady by how much effort she puts into this learning it seems we often get a might bit too selfish in this expectation.

We seem to believe that they should spend almost every waking moment preparing to be with us when in fact they already have very full and busy lives before we show up on the door step. They have to add this extra time for lessons and studying to their existing life schedule.

How many of us men have taken on the reverse dedication to learn HER language? Especially while in the early stages of the relationship. We hear a lot about struggling to communicate using books, hand helds, and live translators so where is our motivation to improve this communication? Sure seems easy to pass the buck here, pay for some lessons, wait and hope that in the end it is the person we believe we are talking to.

Ken, whilst I understand the point you are making here, I have to differ to an extent.  The fact is, she will have to get a grip of the language and she has to accept the responsability of the workload that goes with that.  She also made a choice to get involved in this international relationship thing and we are all in the position we are as a result of choices WE have made.

I have some rudimentary Russian and certainly aim to improve that over time, but that is not for our intrarelationship communication. That is to allow better general communication with F&F whilst and when I am in Russia. IMO it is better to concentrate on one language for relationship communication first. Our language of choice in that respect is the one she will need most for the rest of her life, all things being equal.

Further, as mine and I are both very well aware, right now in the final stages before she arrives permanently, who organises everything for the wedding? Who organises further language studies? Who organises health care insurance? Who organises the home (To an extent)? Who organises driving lessons? Who organises bus route timetables? Who organises kindagarten for a child next year (Because we need to do so in advance)? Who organises meetings with other Russian people? Who rearranges the garden/storage areas/yard so that it is safe for bub? Who goes researching where we can find a few "Russian Treats" (Food)? Who has missed their favoured Sunday afternoon siesta among a million other things for the last 6 months and probably wont see another one for the next 6 months? I do, that's who.

That is just part of the deal and I accept it with all joy and enthusiasm, but no I don't agree we are being selfish or demanding by expecting her to take responsability for the extra work involved with language learning. In fact mine and I have had "Words" of recent times because I consider she dropped the ball a little with her language studies back a few weeks ago. Maybe I am being too tough but this is in her interest as much if not more than mine.

Everyone needs to get a little dirt on their hands if this thing is going to work including her IMO. The big mistake I made in my former marriage was spoiling her rotten from day one.

I/O 

[catzenmouse]

I/O,

 I fully agree that they have taken this on and it will mean a lot of extra effort on their part. I also fully agree with all the extra that we will be taking on in this type of relationship. We're on the same page here.

 I was simply trying to point out to those a bit earlier on in their relationships that the lady will be working extra to get ready for this and using learning Russian for the man was the natural comparison for the amount of work that we should be doing on this end. In essence I'm trying to get that little light bulb to go on in some of the guys heads that they can't just find the lady then sit back while she runs around the city getting language lessons and preparing paperwork while working a 6 day week, taking care of her family/children and catching a few minutes with friends.

 All of the things you mentioned are very real AND very important things to consider and take care of on our end.

Ken

[I/O]

I'm trying to get that little light bulb to go on in some of the guys heads

Yes of course, but as my Dad often says, not much point in switching the light on if there is nobody home. Make of that what you will, but I think you'll understand quite well.

I/O

[wxman]

In essence I'm trying to get that little light bulb to go on in some of the guys heads that they can't just find the lady then sit back while she runs around the city getting language lessons and preparing paperwork while working a 6 day week, taking care of her family/children and catching a few minutes with friends.

Your words ring so very true! My fiancee is doing almost this now. She speaks good english, but she still works 6 days a week, takes care of her daughter and mother, and goes to University several times a week in the late afternoon and evening finishing her college education. Me sitting around and doing nothing but waiting for her to come, ain't gonna cut it.

[Daveman]

Thanks for the words of encouragement and advice.  There are some excellent points in this thread and  I'm just too mentally and emotionally exhausted to think about and address them now, but over the next few days I'll try to throw in how these points made by others fit into the schema of my specific situation, and be as honest as I can about it so perhaps others can learn from it, and I can also perhaps think about it more and broaden my own perspective and learn more as well. I think there can be some good discussion and learning here for any one still contemplating the pursuit of this type of language challenged relationship now or later.

Or course there are many issues which go into a relationship and to place "language" into a vacuum as the end all of the problem is not actually correct, however, I would say that it is the Alpha rather than the Omega of the situation.

To me this means that no other relationship issue/aspect can really be addressed without the common language.  It really is ironic that I was in this type of relationship because I've always been a proponent of the CLC ("Common Language Corollary"). To me the three C's of Conversation Comprise true Communication (does that make forth, fifth, and sixth C's?) Cranial/Coronary/Comedic Conversation = Communication.  Yeah, I have a strange way of looking at things, but hey, we're all screwed up in some ways.  Real communication from which love can grow and flourish, in my mind, is broken into three main and rather broad categories which are obvious but I'll expand simply because this is my thread, and I have every right to come across as an idiot if I see fit.  Cranial represents the mentally engaging and stimulating. Coronary would be those romantics aspects of conversation which touch the heart, soul, sharing of dreams of the future, etc.  Comedic of course is the entertaining humorous side of conversation which brings laughter into the equation (extremely important).  Each one of these, of course, is not mutually exclusive. They weave together in ways which paint murals inside the mind and heart of your partner (or graffiti if your mind is warped like mine).  Humorously worded cerebral (ack, another C), Emotionally involved humor, serious talks of the heart.. you get the idea...

In a language challenged relationship, all three of these will be lacking at least to some degree, and some will be lacking to a greater degree.  Can people overcome this? Of course, but only with that ever elusive "Staying Power".  They have to be able to ride out the lean exchanges long enough to arrive at the fulfilling communication.  As others have mentioned, having this staying power is a long shot.  You really are spending months (and years) betting the future on that 100-1 horse in the race.

In my specific situation, we were fantastic together in person. We found ways to communicate and have fun doing it, though the process was extremely slow at first then became easier as the days went by... however, without being able to point, gesture, make goofy faces, act out scenarios with charade like charm, we were left with translated letters.  As others have mentioned, you can learn a lot about someone through these letters, but they don't really give that emotionally fulfilling content which provides the basis of "feelings" over the long term.  Again, this is where the Staying Power comes into play. If you BOTH don't have this ability to make the decision, and stick with it, you're doomed.  At any time, even with staying power, as you are learning about each other, a deal breaker can arise and you both also must be willing to accept that from either side... the problem here is a deal breaker that would arise in the first day, or week, whatever, in fluent communication might not rear it's ugly head for months in a relationship where real communication is through translated letters.  Think about it, one translated letter exchange really only represents a very small portion of what would be discussed in a few minutes of fluent live conversation while at the same time lacks the true emotional content of your partner because it picks up the personality of the translator in the process.  I can verify this first hand.  During this relationship, her personality changed three times (each time her translator changed) and I'm sure mine did to her as well.  I could find "her" in the letters, but she was wrapped inside the personality package of the translator.

Where the hell am I going with this? I have no idea, I've lost my train of thought.. I'll pick it up tomorrow.. along with responses to the other posts...

Dave
 

[I/O]

Where the hell am I going with this? I have no idea, I've lost my train of thought.. I'll pick it up tomorrow.. along with responses to the other posts...

Dave
 

Dave: Where you are going with it is where almost all men go when something goes toes up.  Trying to put it all into some kind of logical understandable sequencial order. Nothing wrong with that.  IMO you need to do that right now.  Whether any of us including you, were right, wrong or somewhere in between to start something, when it ends, the ol' heart strings can become pretty raw for a while.

I/O

[CaptB]

Dave,

Sorry to hear the news. I attemped twice tonite.....making a rather lengthy reply......but I got poped out of the website twice......therby erasing my reply each time. I sent you a PM.


Capt B

[Turboguy]

I can't count the number of threads we have seen over the years debating the value of having a common language.  In fact, I remember starting one some time ago and got told by a number of men that I was all wet, that I didn't have a clue about what it takes to make a successful marriage.   The theme, mostly, for those who advocate going after non-English speakers, was that a man was going to miss out on meeting a lot of nice women if he limited his search to only those who speak English.  Well,,, I'm not going to beat Daveman up about his poor choices, however the result was fairly predictable.

Since I was one of those arguing the other side of the language issue I could look at this as proof that we were wrong and you were right (I have no problem admitting if I am wrong) but I still believe what I did before.

I still think if THE RIGHT TWO PEOPLE want to make it work bad enough they WILL make it work.   This is just a case where it wasn't right for them.   It's sad but probably for the best.

Just as jb threw himself into immersion learning of Russian when it was necessary the right woman will do the same.   I see VWRW who a few years ago knew barely a word of English and now is very fluent without a single lesson.   Even here in the Caribbean we get up, shower have breakfast and she studies English for 4-6 hours a day.   The English lessons take preference over most everything. 

Our thoughts are that verbal humor is the hardest part of communication and it does seem to be important to Dave.   We laugh a lot but most is non verbal humor.   Verbal humor usually incorporates things that are more subtle and harder to convey.

I can agree that communication is important.   VWRW says a relationship without a common language is like swimming in the ocean if you can't swim.   I think some like I/O can do it.  I dealt with no serious verbal communication with my previous fiancee and it did not create a bit of problems.   We could communicate well with writing so that carried us.   Truthfully if I loved someone and their work or life kept them from learning English, I would lock myself into a room with books and Cd's and stay there working 18 hours a day until I could communicate.   

I think the right person will come along for Dave and he will be fine.   Sometimes what we think is our dreams coming true is only another of life's lessons.   The right girl is out there.

[catzenmouse]

Yes of course, but as my Dad often says, not much point in switching the light on if there is nobody home. Make of that what you will, but I think you'll understand quite well.

We have and will continue to see way too many examples of this particular type of individual. I like this version: "Their synapses are firing alright, just in all the wrong directions."

this is my thread, and I have every right to come across as an idiot if I see fit.

Don't you try to make a play for my crown there buddy boy! I've earned it the hard way and I'm gonna keep it!!! 

Where the hell am I going with this? I have no idea, I've lost my train of thought.. I'll pick it up tomorrow.. along with responses to the other posts...

Like I/O mentioned, you're going just where you need to go. Take the time and go through the steps to come out the other side of this whole and a little bit farther along in the possibilities that arise with an international relationship.

No worries about the thoughts. My "train of thought" derails multiple times each day. 

You've got a good heart and a decent, if slightly twisted, head (which can be a very good thing in this adventure) along with the desire to make it work. Don't discount the external pulls on your life here and how they have had an effect on what happened. Use all of this knowledge and these experiences to your advantage.

Ken

[I/O]

We have and will continue to see way too many examples of this particular type of individual. I like this version: "Their synapses are firing alright, just in all the wrong directions."
Ken

Well, it's a bit off topic, but Dave could do with some humour to cheer him up a bit AND it is relevant.  Continuing family advice, my Grandad, just before he died, gave me a pretty stern lecture on a few life issues and one of the things he said, and I remember this as if yesterday, "Get thinkin' with ya head sonny boy, ya co....k's ya compass and wherever it points you'll follow if ya don't get thinkin' with ya head".

I/O