What is 'rich' by Western standards?

[Blues Fairy]

So, ladies, I'm just curious: assume you met someone you really like and who seems like a great match for you in every other way, but you discover some financial problems (not quite as bad as what Anastassia implies, but something).  Do you dump him?

Not if he has a reasonable salvage plan and is in the process of fixing his problems.  But if he has no clue and does nothing, the situation is a no-brainer.

[Gator]

The less debt the better, the more savings in the bank the better, the faster you can pay off mortgage for the smaller interest rate the better, the more savings you have for your kids the better, the more ‘points’ or ‘miles’ you can use the better.....

But I would say – if you can live without borrowing at all! We use a debit card most of the time, credit very rarely. I make sure we spend less or much less than what we have and only AFTER we have it. 

Debt is not bad, dependent upon the type of debt.  Credit card debt is bad because of the high monthly interest rates.

The wealthiest people usually have tons of debt.  Why?  They can make a higher return on the borrowed amounts than the interest charged by their lenders.

A little money in the bank is good.  A lot of money in the bank is bad because banks provide minimum return.

How can a woman find out all these financial details from a man without offending him or being too nosy or labeled 'materialistic'?

There are two opportunities for a RW to obtain financial information before she leaves her country to marry:

1.  Embassy interview for K-1 visa.   The woman must bring to her interview financial documents from the petitioner.  "Such documents may include, but are not limited to:
- Most recent year tax returns (form 1040) or tax transcripts from IRS
- Copy of bank account
- Earnings and leave statement
- W-2 forms
- Letter from employer"

2.  Marriage Contract.  Financial disclosure is a fundamental requirement of preparing a prenuptial agreement (marriage contract) is .  A man and woman must each provide a balance sheet (assets and liabilities).

This, unfortunately, comes late in the process, but before she marries the man.   If a woman wants more information early, there are ways. 

1.  Observation.  Usually, but not always, one can measure the success of a man by observing him.  Some men live off their ability to charm other people out of their money (or young women out of their knickers).  Does the typical RW have the ability to ascertain a Western man?

2.  Internet.  Google his name.  His address can be used with Google maps to get an aerial photo of his house or doublewide.

3.  Ask.   Ask some general questions diplomatically at an appropriate time.  Followup the answers with more questions over the course of a few meetings.   Ask about his work, mortgage, etc.  Ask for photos.  If two people are talking about love and marriage, nothing should be so sacred that the other can not ask a question.

[MaxxumUSA]

Debt is not bad, dependent upon the type of debt.  Credit card debt is bad because of the high monthly interest rates.

The wealthiest people usually have tons of debt.  Why?  They can make a higher return on the borrowed amounts than the interest charged by their lenders.

A little money in the bank is good.  A lot of money in the bank is bad because banks provide minimum return.
 


There are two opportunities for a RW to obtain financial information before she leaves her country to marry:

1.  Embassy interview for K-1 visa.   The woman must bring to her interview financial documents from the petitioner.  "Such documents may include, but are not limited to:
- Most recent year tax returns (form 1040) or tax transcripts from IRS
- Copy of bank account
- Earnings and leave statement
- W-2 forms
- Letter from employer"
2.  Marriage Contract.  Financial disclosure is a fundamental requirement of preparing a prenuptial agreement (marriage contract) is .  A man and woman must each provide a balance sheet (assets and liabilities).

This, unfortunately, comes late in the process, but before she marries the man.   If a woman wants more information early, there are ways. 

1.  Observation.  Usually, but not always, one can measure the success of a man by observing him.  Some men live off their ability to charm other people out of their money (or young women out of their knickers).  Does the typical RW have the ability to ascertain a Western man?

2.  Internet.  Google his name.  His address can be used with Google maps to get an aerial photo of his house or doublewide.

3.  Ask.   Ask some general questions diplomatically at an appropriate time.  Followup the answers with more questions over the course of a few meetings.   Ask about his work, mortgage, etc.  Ask for photos.  If two people are talking about love and marriage, nothing should be so sacred that the other can not ask a question.

Nice answers Gator.  I bolded the ones I feel are the best.

I have come up with the perfect answer to what is "rich"...

Here it is:  More.

[Lily]

it depends on the WAY he mentions these financial problems.
 

It depends on the nature of those financial problems. The way he tells them is IMHO irrelevant. Mostly it would be about whether the problems are repairable, what does it take to repair them, and whether I would be able to contribute to that repair. The latter would be a good sign for me. In most cases, the united forces of two people could do more than just one person.

If he shows some habits that could bring any wealth to zero, like gambling, or inclination to some business projects that are far from reality, I'd dump the guy.

[Serebro]

It depends on the nature of those financial problems. The way he tells them is IMHO irrelevant.

It's not as irrelevant as you may think.

the nature of the problem is closely connected with the way he mentions it.

If he is a lazy person who has a lot of debts and no money to pay them off just because he is that kind of a person but he writes that he is well -off it's the WAY he mentions it that is closely connected with the nature of the problem, so being honest from the very beginning is the main thing for me.

What is the point in knowing the nature of the problem if you discover it when you come to him and the state of the things are not as he described them just because he "forgot" to mention it?!

[Lily]

What is the point in knowing the nature of the problem if you discover it when you come to him and the state of the things are not as he described them just because he "forgot" to mention it?!

Agree. He may waht to say, 'You did not ask about that!' 

[I/O]

The greater lie is oft held within that which is not said.

I/O

[Gator]

It depends on the nature of those financial problems. The way he tells them is IMHO irrelevant. Mostly it would be about whether the problems are repairable, what does it take to repair them, and whether I would be able to contribute to that repair. The latter would be a good sign for me. In most cases, the united forces of two people could do more than just one person.

If he shows some habits that could bring any wealth to zero, like gambling, or inclination to some business projects that are far from reality, I'd dump the guy.

RW have been trained by RM.  I do not know RM, having met only a few.  I guess, however, that a RM successful in the Russian economy has a different style and mindset than a Western man successful in the West.  Will the average RW considering marrriage to a foreigner understand and appreciate the difference?

[Serebro]

RW have been trained by RM.  I do not know RM, having met only a few.  I guess, however, that a RM successful in the Russian economy has a different style and mindset than a Western man successful in the West.  Will the average RW considering marrriage to a foreigner understand and appreciate the difference?

Why do you think I am single?!

[joe rockhead]

I was talking with the guys at work a couple weeks back about money and it came down to the fact that it isn't so much the amount of income or the amount in the bank, but its about independence for guys who are over 30.  To have your house paid for and to be able to pick and choose the jobs you are willing to take for employment. With my coworkers who are 18-29, it was about toys and status symbols. 

After reading this thread how do you present yourself as a guy with a solid job, capable of providing for a family, who owns what would be considered a starter home, without attracting the wrong type of woman.

[Gator]

Why do you think I am single?!

If not now single, my congratulations. 

My question pertains to my assumption that a RM who does well in Russia would seemingly have a different MO than an educated professional from the West.   I would think that a business man from the West does not face the same degree of difficulty as a Russsian businessman.  I did meet a somewhat successful RM in IT and he satisfied seven criteria to be a nerd.

Serebro, love your new avatar.  With your fabulous golden hair you must change your name, although I never pictured you as having silver hair.

[Serebro]

If not now single, my congratulations. 

My question pertains to my assumption that a RM who does well in Russia would seemingly have a different MO than an educated professional from the West.   I would think that a business man from the West does not face the same degree of difficulty as a Russsian businessman. 

yes, I know

Serebro, love your new avatar

thank you very much, it 's only for a couple of days as I had a bet with someone on the forum and he won and I lost, and my showing this avatar on the forum was one of the conditions....

With your fabulous golden hair you must change your name, although I never pictured you as having silver hair

could you believe that one year ago I was a brunette with long wavy hair?!

[Gator]

thank you very much, it 's only for a couple of days as I had a bet with someone on the forum and he won and I lost, and my showing this avatar on the forum was one of the conditions....

You are a lady of integrity for honoring your wager.  Plus it improved the appearance of RWD.

could you believe that one year ago I was a brunette with long wavy hair?!

I believe it.  What color are your eyes?   Your skin seems rather dark to be a true blond.  Yet the sheen is fabulous and difficult to produce from a bottle.  Stunning! Please don't change your avatar.

I will not be crass and ask which draperies match the carpet, a statement confirming my ridiculously giddy mood these final days of my bachelorhood.

Maybe a poll - what is Serebro's natural hair color?  Blond, brunette, other.  Before this photo my imaginative mind pictured you as a strawberry blond with wavy hair.

[Lily]

My question pertains to my assumption that a RM who does well in Russia would seemingly have a different MO than an educated professional from the West.   I would think that a business man from the West does not face the same degree of difficulty as a Russsian businessman.  I did meet a somewhat successful RM in IT and he satisfied seven criteria to be a nerd.

 

You are right in your assumption that a business person from the West has it easier to run business than a RM, and that some different set of skills woudl be required.

Whether an average RW would appreciate those skills...I'd like to give you a more definite answer but sorry I cannot. The more I read RWD, the firmer is my understanding that there is not such thing as an AVERAGE RW. They all are different depending on their upbringing, qualities, social standing, degree of personal wealth.

As for myself, yes, I appreciate that qualities in WM, moreover, it is one of reasons why I love them 

[Serebro]

You are a lady of integrity for honoring your wager.  Plus it improved the appearance of RWD.


I believe it.  What color are your eyes?   Your skin seems rather dark to be a true blond. 


Before this photo my imaginative mind pictured you as a strawberry blond with wavy hair.

my eyes are gray, and it's not skin color, it's called tan and make up, Gator , you don't know girls at all as you believe everything you see , I think it's too early for you to get married

Before this photo my imaginative mind pictured you as a strawberry blond with wavy hair.

I was.. in august


Lily

Whether an average RW would appreciate those skills...I'd like to give you a more definite answer but sorry I cannot

I agree, I haven't met the RM-businessman who I would like to see as my husband as most of them are quite rude and tactless.

[wxman]

How are Russian scientists percieved in Russia? In my scientific field I have had the opportunity to meet a few very brilliant Russian scientists. I know here in the US we are considered geeks because science is not an area many people choose to study. You say the words physics or calculus to someone in the US, and you get a strange look. 

[ambach123]

It is my understanding that average AM in this pursuit is a middle class, middle aged divorced person.

For a RW to expect that he would be " rich " by any standrards is incredibly naive. Most of these people are not rich by any means.
The middle class is suffering in the current economic climate with the country teetering on a recession.
For a knowledgable RW, she should know how bad off he is before the marriage and there are some very good suggestions here, and whether he has a steady job. If the answer is positive, she should count her blessings. If a RW is looking for a rich AM, that may be another lifetime.

For people in middle class, any positive net worth is very good. In addition many of the AM are divorced and paying child supprt.

For sure, there is a " rich " class of people in USA, I am not sure how many of them look for a bride in FSU, if any at all. This pursuit takes a lot of time, someone who makes good money has a profession or a business to run, it is unlikely that he would be spending his time on the keyboards. And there are obviously no short cuts to the time spent in this pursuit.

So in brief, my take is that most the guys in this pursuit are not " rich ", judging by any kind of standards, and to expect that from the AM is disregarding reality by the RW.

[Gator]

Ambach,

Most RW are not expecting rich.  They are expecting a better life, and two requirements for that are stability and security.  A middle class Western man can provide that.  If not, he is no better than the average RM.

I have talked to Lily.  She does not expect, nor want, to live off of her man's money.  She wants to earn her own money, and she has the intellect to accomplish exactly that after a brief period of adjustment.

[Gator]

Lily and Serebro,

Love your answers.  I did not want to say Russian businessmen are "rude and tactless" (as I get in trouble with RW here when I am critical of any part of Russian culture); however, my perception of RM is exactly that.

There are nice RM.  One, a friend of my fiancee's, is an artisan.  He builds high end fireplaces for rich Russians.  Frequently he is cheated or otherwise screwed by a few customers; yet, he loves his work and makes a living because most of his customers pay him.

One of his best jobs was done for Mr. Medium Wealthy who happened to have a dacha next to Daddy Warbucks.  Smoke from his fireplace's chimney would enter Daddy Warbuck's airspace.   Daddy Warbucks told him to correct the problem or he would murder his family. That's what he said.  Mr. Medium Wealthy paid my fiancee's friend 4x the normal price, money upfront, to correct the problem ASAP. 


Serebro,

  (I am still learning at my advanced age.  Women are complicated.)

[Simoni]

Before this photo my imaginative mind pictured you as a strawberry blond with wavy hair.

I was.. in august

Marina had brown hair yesterday; blond today.  She says changing hair color is like changing clothes.  Seems like I am sleeping with a different woman every week!     LOL

[Blues Fairy]

How are Russian scientists percieved in Russia? In my scientific field I have had the opportunity to meet a few very brilliant Russian scientists. I know here in the US we are considered geeks because science is not an area many people choose to study. You say the words physics or calculus to someone in the US, and you get a strange look. 

The perception of scientists has changed a great deal in the past decades.
In Soviet Russia, scientists were a strategic resource, universally respected, well provided for, never having to worry about the future.  Upon completion of your advanced degree, you could safely rely on the State to employ you in a state-funded institution, give you a state-owned apartment, provide your family with day care and food coupons, and eventually pay for your retirement.  I grew up in a family of scientists and I remember a rather above-average welfare we enjoyed in those years.

Needless to say, R&D people were not encouraged to actively look for alternative sources of funding - or learn to apply their research to commercial projects - or sell their brains in any other way.  In fact, these academics, starting from the second generation, never had a chance, or incentive, to grow up at all.  Little did they know of what was to befall them!  In the early 1990s the cash pipe was depleted and Russian science began to fall apart.  Imagine tens of thousands of narrow specialists, recently so confident of their infinite value to society, firmly believing in the definition of science as "a way to do what you like at the expense of the State", having to get out into the harsh world and learn how to survive on their own.  Many fled abroad, a few found a way to effectively compete for the crumbs of funding still falling their way (government grants, Soros etc.), some were brave enough to change careers altogether, and some sunk into extreme poverty.  Thus they continued for a while, even when there emerged new market opportunities and some areas of research could be commercialized.  I encountered many R&D people who were furious at the idea of some external manager coming to direct their efforts: they'd rather stay hungry on their government salaries, but do their own thing and answer to no-one. 

Nowadays the research community has worked out a way to sustain itself more or less, but the standard of living is still far from satisfactory, and as a result, oftentimes their approach to their work is far from responsible.  So on the whole, scientists are regarded with an odd mixture of admiration and pity.  Some of them, however, do seem to retain their culture of free-thinking and intellectual integrity, with a great deal of political scepticism.  But many have long sold their souls. 

[Catman]

I live outside of the city here in Canada and know of a lot of very well off people. A lot of people I know will say that these people are rich. I would say these people would be millionaires with cash and assests but they probably have more than that. The thing is, you would never know this if you didn't know them. These "rich" people are very modest, most are workaholics. They grew up with little and started working at a young age with their parents at the family business and farms. Most have modest houses although a few have very nice homes and a new vehicle every few years, go on one trip every year or two. If you were to tell them they are rich they would become insulted and defend themselves.
Then you get the wannabe big shots who look rich, act rich but the bank owns everything and a sudden turn in the economy will put them in their place.

[alantodd]

Most rich people work all the time.  There is a misconception that rich people are lucky or lazy.  Some rich people are lucky (winning lottery, 1990's stock options, buying cheap realestate 20 years ago which is now worth a lot more, inheritance).  Generally rich people work hard and take risks.  Some people may call their risks lucky when they work out but high risk means higher potential for wealth.

I just read a book on Warren Buffet - richest person in World to this day.  If you read his life story, you would see that this guy spent his entire life trying to become very rich.  He worked all day 7 days a week his entire life.  Not sure many people in this World would work 100 plus hours a week their entire life.  By the way he was only worth after tax about $4 million usd when he was 35 years old and $120 million usd when he was 50 years old.  At 78 years old he is worth more than $50 billion usd.  He was very cheap and never let his kids or wife buy anything of any value.  He calculates the lost savings of spending a $1 all the time.  He has said if he was not cheap he never would have become rich.  He is leaving nothing to his children and giving his money away.  By Russian terms he was very greedy. 

He had one thing lucky in his life and that was his father who was a usa senator which helped Warren Buffet meet the right investors later in life.  Plus Warren's mother was very mean which forced him to stay away from her and work on numerous businesses when he was five years old.  Whe he was little he used to put pin ball machines in non mafia run barbershops and split the profits with the barbershop.  He stayed away from mafia run barbershops to maximum his profits.  I had no idea the mafia is into cutting hair in the USA many years ago.

We tend to see on television the rich people who did not work hard for their money but the majority of the rich work very hard.  Most rich men do not have model looking wives either.  They tend to have wives who are driven in business just like them or the teacher looking kind of wives who will put up with a man working 24 hours 7 days a week. 

A lot of the Russian millionaires tend to be a little different than most of the other millionaires in the world in that it is easy to make money in Ukraine and Russia up to 2005.  Civilized countries need at least 1% of its population to be rich and that means 2 million people in Russia / Ukraine combined.  To become a millionaire now in Russia is harder as the lucky 1% is over.  Africa will be the next frontier to become lucky rich. Don't laugh a lot of people are investing right now in Africa.   Many will fail but 1% will succeed sometime in the future.  The 1% can be people who are ex pats or live in other countries.

The new Russian millionaires in ten years will be a different type than the ones currently their.  Will be a lot harder to become rich in Russia in the future.

[ambach123]

I would consider myself quite well to do. However I spend a great deal of time managing my business, just don't have the time to devote to a letter writing campaign. Also I believe that five minutes of meeting is better than countless emails.

Personal meetings often don't turn out to be what appears on the emails. However it seems that some people here have done very well with an email campaign. They found some ladies via emails, met with a few, selected one and have done very well. My congratulations to them.

This pursuit is very time consuming.  In spite of what may appear, my options are very limited. I am considering going with one of the tours, I have done a search on the tours, and the reviews are mixed.

I would appreciate any suggestions.

[Turboguy]

If the time you have to devote to it is limited you might be better off to stick to AW.

I have done three big agency tours.  If your time is limited I just think you would be wasting more than ever on a tour.   I have also gone on one of Jack's tours and if you are going to do one it is the only one you should think about.  Your chances of finding a sincere woman are much better on Jack's tour and the education is worth the price of admission.