No action here?

[Bruce]

Elen - mass media does have an effect.  However, I really do not believe the mass media has the ability to brain-wash the Russian population.  It is hard for me to believe that you really think the mass media has corrupted the Russian society!

[Elen]

How often do you watch what our TV shows us?

Why it's hard for you to believe that if mass media 24 per day shows us ( with a help of all those serials and new films, and various stupid talk and reality shows) how it's fine to steal, kill, lie and bribe, how others do that and get nothing punishment then that has nothing effect at people?

Or do you believe we are learned how to corrupt in secondary school studying Russian classic literature or mathematic?

Of course mass media does not "coorrupt: us. It only puts in our mind it's normal, you are fool if you can't get money (never mind by what way). That's all.

 


 

[MandM]

[user=300]M&M[/user] - if you call 200,000 elderly Jews a large number out of a population of 150 million in the Russian republic, then what is a small number???

I'll agree that corruption is a problem, but it all goes back to the educational system and the values that are instilled in the youth ie. it can be effectively taught out as is here in the USA.


Corncrowe - see the archives for the "desperation" thread.

I don't believe these statistics. Anyway a lot of Jews have 'Russian' or 'Latvian' as nationality in their passport (whatever their surname let them get away with!)

[Elen]

Yeah:? hard to believ that such little population can give such many "troubles" in Russia ( Kidding until you mark me like anti semite as well:D)

[Donna_Pedro]

 

anono

saw nothing special in any of them but two

moscow was just a gray, drab, cold place with nothing much outside the kremlin that was of much interest.

this is subjective.

seem more interested in finding a good man than they are desperate or money hungry.

good men are available in Russia too, believe it or not. Please, I dont want to hear about  "all RM are drunken wife beaters", this is a tale for children.  So why do they post their profiles on INTERNATIONAL marriage sites?  

you have an even lower opinion of the women. you have nothing better to do than bring your attitude and unhappiness here to this board. you have nothing positive to say. everyone else is beneath you.  you have no clue about some of us here, who you would never say these things to,

wow, wow... personal attack on Elen? I hope she wont mind if I respond, because I agree with her opinion and share her attitude, but unlike her I have more then a clue about some of you here - I actually met "some of you" in person, and spent hours on the phone with others, or read posts for over 2 years. I can say these things right into people's face, I dont need to hide myself behind the screen and I actually  said these things, those who met me at Atlanta group meetings knows about it. And my opinion so far is no different to Elen's. Strange, isnt it? Two different women, with different background have the same opinion about this matter.  There are some good girls in provinces, I do not argue with it, but those I met in tens and tens on multiple RW forums, those who managed to get here,  one way or another ask the same question - how to stay in US and only a broken backbone can make them  to go back.

 




 

 

[Elen]

Thanks, Donna  OOPS I even had not idea sombody posted once more about me personal. I thought it was one more Anono's story from his trips to Russia which (sorry boy) I didn't read at all and just skip:D

[MandM]

Elen

:D:D (that's me laughing!)

[anono]

corncrowe, your description of what i meant by desperate is accurate.


 

Anono, what does Yulia do for a living?

 

as far as i can tell, she is a fashion/clothing designer. i asked her what she does, more specifically. she says she designs the clothing and modifies these designs.  some are chosen to be put into production, which she also has something to do with. most of the tops or blouses, whatever you  women call shirts, are her design and/or made by her. i have yet to see an evening gown she made. this is as much as i know about this.

elen, i am happy you do not read my trip reports. i'd just as soon you read nothing i post.

someone asked about moscow i think, so i posted my impressions. i don't think i have to  say i am sure i have seen far more of the world than you ever will. dang! i just said it!

[anono]

hiding behind a screen?  post your pic donna..i'm not hiding. i will tell anyone anything anytime anywhere...if it's what i believe.

[anono]

Two different women, with different background have the same opinion about this matter

i'm stunned!

 

[Photo Guy]

Are most men who go to the FSU for a wife, desperate?
Has a survey been done? How can you draw a conclusion about this question?

I saw an interesting article by Elena of Elena's Models. She says,
'Yes', these men ARE desperate. And then she goes on to playfully explain that she means 'desperate' means basically that the man is desperate enough to look outside of his own country to find a suitable partner. She says the reasons for this desperation are good reasons and make sense. At this time in this adventure, I'd agree with her.
And I agree with Bruno.

As for Jon's/Anono's definition, I don't know. I haven't met many
men who are doing this search for a RW. Not enough info.
I proudly say that I do not fit into their definition.  ...Do you?  

I agree with Elen. It is logical to assume, based on economic conditions, that women from smaller towns will be more likely to be desperate. As I've mentioned before, materialism and financial gain will probably be part of the motivation of a RW who seeks a western husband. If that is 10% of her motivation, then it's more acceptable than if it is 80%.  The latter would be labeled 'desperation'.
Remember, immigration has a history of people who SEEK BETTER CONDITIONS.

[corncrowe]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

Are most men who go to the FSU for a wife, desperate?

-- gee from what I have seen so far (seven years), yes! 

Has a survey been done? How can you draw a conclusion about this question?

-- why survive?   Will a desperate man give you a good response to a survey?

I saw an interesting article by Elena of Elena's Models. She says,
'Yes', these men ARE desperate. And then she goes on to playfully explain that she means 'desperate' means basically that the man is desperate enough to look outside of his own country to find a suitable partner. She says the reasons for this desperation are good reasons and make sense. At this time in this adventure, I'd agree with her.
And I agree with Bruno.

-- Do you honestly read and believe everything Elena said?  Oh please, tell me you are smarter than that!!! 

Ok, folks.  So I just come back from a little drinking with friends and order dinner to go at my favorite "hole".  I have a young woman sit next to me and her mother is standing to her side.  We talk for a couple minutes and then I hear the mother ask her "twenty" year old daughter this "Ask him if he's rich?".

Omg...I heard this in Texas!!!  I turned to the mom and said "Don't even go there..." 

So what's the difference if a Ukrainian mommie or Dallas mommie wants the best for her daughter?  I had several young women in Texas ask me about possible dating or a relationship.  There are women in America who will date older men if they see there is potential in the relationship.  But for me, nyet!!!  I could never date another woman under thirty!

Cheers for Texas!

Jon

[anono]

my sister in law, born and raised in my small village was seeking better conditions..  i'd say most  marriages were women seeking better conditions...  are these women , when they divorce their rich and maybe those not so rich, husbands, telling them, "no, i did it for love, i don't want your money"? if you think this, talk to randy2 at the old board...

what makes you think, one week wonder, that you know much of anything about these women? because you read what elena at elena's models says?

what's your point doug?

[Photo Guy]

My point is that women who are very poor may want to marry a western man, as a step toward better living conditions. If they want this VERY much, then it can be labeled 'desperation'.
Do you disagree with that?
I do not know enough about RW/UW to draw any conclusions about this. I don't know. I admit it. I just put it out there as food for thought.
I would feel more comfortable if my potential wife is less desperate, rather than more desperate. So, it comes down to judging how balanced the potential wife is. I don't pretend to know a lot about these Ukrainian women. I'm just posing questions here about them,
their motivations. I've seen it posted that  'She never pulled me into a clothing store, or never asked for money', etc. I took that as meaning, 'This woman is NOT desperate to attain material gain and she is mostly interested in finding a suitable husband and a loving relationship.' Okay, so I assume many of us are wondering just how much a potential wife is motivated by material gain, or just how 'desperate' is this woman to escape her poor conditions? It's a question many of us face.   ...True?

[Elen]

someone asked about moscow i think, so i posted my impressions. i don't think i have to  say i am sure i have seen far more of the world than you ever will. dang! i just said it!

May be you have seen more in other part of the world but sertainly I've seen and knew far more about FSU and escpesially Moscow. So you may please yourself with an idea that you understand and "see" more than I, skipping here from one woman to antother I have no one wish to crush your illusion

 

i'd say most  marriages were women seeking better conditions... 

[/font]

I'd say everybody looks for woman who would match him. Good luck to you Anono with such kind of women who put better condition at first place in marriage.[/size][/font]

[andrewfi]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

Are most men who go to the FSU for a wife, desperate?
Has a survey been done? How can you draw a conclusion about this question?

(snip)

As for Jon's/Anono's definition, I don't know. I haven't met many
men who are doing this search for a RW. Not enough info.
I proudly say that I do not fit into their definition. ...Do you?

Why were you looking for a woman outside of your community? From my perspective, I would suggest that anyone who is actively doing do is, to some degree or another, dysfunctional.

But desperate?

Yes, I think so. If you (those seeking Russian women) were not desperate, you would not be looking outside of your community, you would just remain single. This is, for most of the guys here, their last spin of the wheel, in relationship terms, and so they are desperate, whatever they might think.

Does this mean that all are sad buggers? No, not really, but it is for sure not too healthy. Just look at poor Robert (Anono). Has no idea what he is doing, or looking for, but instead is flailing around, looking for something that does not exist (for him at least!). Does he think he is desperate? I am sure not. Is he desperate? Yes, you bet! Even as he dumps his latest conquest because she is not sexually compatible enough. (Sorry, peering into the future, with the benefit of hindsight!)

[Bruno]

Andrew,

Maybe i need to explain how i see the advantage of people desesperate... in the case of dating localy... like you explain, several men stay single because they don't find localy a woman... these type of man have no more dream, no more hope... they are not desesperate, they are almost dead or waiting it...

These of us who are desesperate have always a dream, these to find a life patner... and these energy allow us to search and no border limit us in these quest...

And when i see my case, what is my communauty... i have trip around all the world during nine year... for me, Belgium is a country like a other, no better of bad... my communauty is the human kind, all around the world... my future wife can be white, black, yellow, russian, european, asian, ... i don't care about this... i wish only a partner who can be my friend, soulmate, lover, wife and mother of my future children... She need to have a compatible character who allow a very long term relationship...

And the nature like the mix of gene... if you marry always someone of your communauty, after several generation, some handicap appear... "bastard" are always geneticaly more strong... it is the law of nature... the power of diversity of gene... This idea of marry in own communauty is a protectionisme reflex who have nothing to make with the reality of nature... A named "Adolf" have almost the same idea but he was himself a "bastard" !!!

[Bruce]

Here we go trying to pick apart our posters.  Our personal opinion of Doug and Robert's noble quests as well as Elen and Donna's "problems" really should not come into this discussion.  

Elen, Donna - I wish you two would admit that other posters may actually have an opinion that may be right. 

Doug - I think the more you question "Elenas Models" owner and website the better off you will be. 

Andrew - I think you are classifying all guys with a broad stroke who go to the FSU at least primarily to look for a wife, which almost always is a mistake.  I look at the guy who goes to the FSU wife hunting as a guy who is able to think outside of the box.   The guy who goes to the FSU is upset with his social situation, thinks of a viable solution that has worked very well for at least some people, sees whats over there and tries to get it right for him.  Usually this guy has way more intelligence than the average guy and probably really is a better "catch" than most guys here.   The guy just did not market himself well, was down on his luck or is the type of guy who just likes to do things differently.  Some guys take longer than others over there.  I look at Robert and Doug as guys who will get it right eventually, hopefully sooner rather than later.  It is a process that is not for the faint of heart. 

Most men will improve their confidence, their worldliness and social intelligence will go up to the point where they easily could get really good girls in their own country.  After a while "getting a girl back home" is not a consideration.  Women from the FSU do have style, grace, and old world charm that American men just will not find in their home country without getting really, really lucky. 

I do not look at the Western guy who goes to the FSU as desperate.  I look at them as a group who have found a smarter, better means to a viable goal.  Their prime battle is with the rigors of travel, language, culture and time.

[anono]

andfrewfi, i have always respected your opinion and still do but i have to go along with bruce here...  i am kinda smiling and gigling a little because it is kind of funny..i take no offense coming from you, i am giggling because i cannot say it better than bruce did.

i am able to date at home and have relations with women. none of them worth the time and effort of putting up with all their dysfunction and baggage. i used to try the internet to meet AW and when i received ads with "marry a russian woman" on them, i bet i must have deleted them for years.

then one day, after another miserable date with a miserable AW, i opened one of those ads up. it was from RWG. leslie d was posting then, and i am sure you remember how good his TR's were. i either blame him or give him the credit, depending on how you look at it, for my sitting here in kharkov now.

as for doug, when i was at his stage in this adventure, i was asking questions and still do of those with more experience than me. his recent post above is better than the previous one and it did not rub me like the one above it. i just got a little irritated because the guy won't listen to valid advice, which boiled down was simply "meet more ladies" before deciding you "belong" to a girl you at best had a very superficial friendship-like relationship with. as a man who has been here for over a year and seen a lot of things in that time, i can only now see why the experienced men say this. we see things at a different perspective. i compare it to looking into the deerlike eyes of a student on his/her first AFF skydive, looking at the other jumpmaster on the other side of the student and both laughing with each other in freefall, knowing how totally unaware the student is of what is happening around him. we would be holding onto him, either side, in freefall, their eyes wide open, most barely remembering a thing we just spent all day trying to teach them. we end up pulling the ripcord for them. if we didn't, they would die. or maybe the automatic opener will fire their reserve at 750 feet but no one wants to depend on that. anyway, this reminds me of doug. now that he has been here a week and maybe held hands with a ukrainian lady, he is now like a jumper with 5-10 jumps walking around trying to give advice to the first timers. we (instructors) saw it all the time.

i still don't know ukrainian women that well and i have been here for a  l o n g time. i do know who is desperate and who isn't.

for the women, i have seen women who have it as good as anyone in the states could, taking into consideration they live in ukraine. leon's girlfriend in poltava is a perfect example. i do not have a pool, indoor or otherwise, let alone both. they live ina house i would trade mine for right now. in fact, they can go to the usa , live there and let me have their house and i'd feel i got the better deal.  his girl, if desperate, is as deperate as i am. i agree with andrewfi, i am going to have to say i am not desperate. but i do not want to sit around back home with the only women available to me are still mad at their ex or ex's, blame all their past bad decisions on me, project the bad behaior of the drunk they married onto me and warn me not to be like her ex, even though i show no signs of being anything like him...  women with dysfunctions and so much baggage a ukrainain train would not be able to handle the weight.

i do not want to sit around playing with my toys waiting to die. why do you think i took up skydiving for a more than a decade? there wasn't anything exciting to do and it replaced sex in a way.

after meeting many kinds of AW all my life and seeing how basically hopeless it was, i decided to broaden my horizons and see for myself back in may 2003 what this is all about.

as for the men, i have seen the men who are indeed desperate, men who cannot date back home, some look terrible, have little to no social skills. on the other hand i have met others who are in a similar situation as me.

sean, my friend from back home, his father is also an attorney, his mother is an educator, comes from a fine irish family. he's an inventor and in business selling the products he invents. belongs to the country club, is among our self styled "elite" as i could be if i desired, of our community.

i remember when he first called me, to ask me about ukrain because he had heard of my travels here. same complaints about the women, they way he was treated.he is handsome, tall and 10 years younger than me. by no means desperate. his first email to me when he arrived home? "you're right, bob, i can never go back to american women".

so andrewfi, maybe you have been meeting the desperate men, but then again, you haven't met me. i left my small village for europe at age 18 in 1974 looking for something better than what i saw around me. i had no clue about the FSU at the time, but of course then it was the soviet union.

the women i have dated, the ones i had more than one meeting with, none were "desperate". i'm not going to go into what they had here or what happened in our relationships that was evidence enough for me to see they were far more interested in the right man than wanting to better their conditions (not going to let you twist what i said into something different elen). bettering their conditions is something that goes along with it in just about every marriage regardless of the primary motive..

i have to go, more on this later J just arrived..

[Elen]

Elen, Donna - I wish you two would admit that other posters may actually have an opinion that may be right. 

"Right" in not the right word for such discussions. Some posters here just should admit others may have their own opinion which could be different to their own. Mostly males at this board lack of that ability. As for me I post what I know, how I feel and what I see from my side of fence. It's business ( thoufh I'd say problem) of others if they have no  wish to know how all that looks from aside.

I'd say everybody looks for woman who would match him

Is THAT enough for you or only the words "You are right" would saisfy you?

 

[Bruno]

i am able to date at home and have relations with women.

Almost the same situation with me... and i don't say that we have not good women in Europe... the only problem, it is the marriage... when i have begin my quest, i was 30 year old... no one wish marry because they wish build a career... and about children, not need to think about this... to much early  for european woman...

So, i have search some FSU woman... the place where you have a lot of women who can mix without problem a love relation, a job and be a mother... and really, it is always a mystere for me how they can make this without any stress... and always stay beautiful...

Maybe in some year, i can again hunt localy... i will be old enough for these woman who think to build a family...

[Elen]

each time I hear how Western women want only to built a career I wonder how it happens that in the end they have more children per woman then RW/UW have with our low birth rate:?

[corncrowe]

each time I hear how Western women want only to built a career I wonder how it happens that in the end they have more children per woman then RW/UW have with our low birth rate:?

Elen,

It's another one of those myths you hear so much about in the states.  Of course not all women here want to have a career.  Some do actually wish to have a family and do not wish to puruse a career.  America is a diverse society like all countries.  We do have career oriented women, part-time working women, full-time mommies, and there are probably other variations to this I haven't even considered. 

I think if an American male uses the "women seeking a career" before husband and family as an excuse to find a woman from the FSU then he is making it easy to justify his decision.  We all make excuses for why we do something outside the "norm".  I personally like the way FSU talk (sexy voice), walk (more spring in their steps), act (a little extreme never hurt anyone) and in general more fememine.  I am positive there are American women like this also, but meeting them is too difficult because they are sparse.

For me it's a personal choice to puruse FSU women.  I could meet a career woman in the states if she had half of the personal qualities I sought.  I would meet her the other half so we would be in the middle as it should be....

Jon

[andrewfi]

Bruce, simply put 'you would say that wouldn't you!' After all you spent years rejecting American women and chasing down many unsuitable girls in Russia.

Robert, your response pretty much confirms what I wrote. The US is not full of dysfunctional women, but there is a reason that you think it is so. All that happens now is that you go to Ukraine and shag young girls without knowing what you want. It does not make you a bad guy, just a bloke who is confused and does not know it. Your mantra of meet more women has become a justification for your inability to make a choice now. You are a man in middle age chasing after kids because you can. From where I sit and read, over a period of years, I see a man running around, ever faster, chasing something he could have and should have got twenty years ago. You are not going to setle down and you will keep on 'looking' until one day you wake up, alone (even if in bed with some young girl!), and realise that what you wanted passed you by years before. (Did you ever see the film 'The Red Shoes'?)

Most of us need to justify what we do, to rationalise it. In doing so, some do pull off the 'bigger, better deal'. Ken seems to have done so, Bruce might have done and Robert, well, he might when he decides what he actually wants. In reality, if most guys spent half as much effort and money on relationships in their own community, they would end up with an appropriate match and in most cases, the results would be much better, in the long term.

When I read a sentence that suggests 'all women' are this, that or the other, I know I am reading a man making a justification for an irrational act. When I read that the guy sees the only course of action open to him is to seek a foreign bride then I am reading the words of a desperate man who thinks that things have gone wrong for him. How do I know?

Because not 'all women' are as described in whatever terms by whichever guy. But their behaviour patterns led them to believe it was so. When I see the words 'all women' in a post, then I know that the writer needs to look in a mirror to see where his problems come from -  and that includes me!

Most of the guys I know best who are doing this thing are here on these boards. Most of the people I know, in real life, are sensible people doing sensible things, even if a little out of the ordinary. The desperate men are, or were, you!

[Photo Guy]

Why were you looking for a woman outside of your community? From my perspective, I would suggest that anyone who is actively doing do is, to some degree or another, dysfunctional.

Why am I looking over there? I had written RW back in '97, just as an experiment. Recently, a good friend of mine married a RW. And a friend of a friend also married a UW. This got me thinking about RW.
I am looking over there because I had heard that RW were not feminists, were happy with their femininity, and appreciated AM. They have some great qualities that are difficult to find here in the US.
I'm not dysfunctional.   Doug