Ukraine..vs.."The Ukraine"

[START2]

Ukraine or"The Ukraine". I've heard both these terms used when speaking about Ukraine. I asked my fiancee and she never heard Ukraine pronounced "the Ukraine". Does anyone have an idea how or where it started?  Is there a translated english word for what Ukraine means?  Just curious.

[Admin]

[user=297]START2[/user] wrote:

Ukraine or"The Ukraine". I've heard both these terms used when speaking about Ukraine. I asked my fiancee and she never heard Ukraine pronounced "the Ukraine". Does anyone have an idea how or where it started? Is there a translated english word for what Ukraine means? Just curious.

Here is one opinion -- http://www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/

FWIW

- Dan

[Goombah]

I was told its just "Ukraine", similiar to "China".  You never hear "The China"...

Kevin

[Elen]

don't know about the Ukraine or Ukraine but on Russian I always use NA Ukraine but not V Ukraine. ( like Ukrains "demand" from Russians claiming NA Ukraine "hutrs their national dignity")

[andrewfi]

Hmmm...

The word Ukraine means 'border' or 'borderland' and whilst Ukrainian has no articles, in English, there is a difference. At least as far as many Ukrainians are concerned.

When one uses the name Ukraine, it is a thing that stands alone. When one uses 'the Ukraine' then implicitly it is a part of something else. This is why since independence from the Soviet Union, the preferred usage is Ukraine. The usage 'the Ukraine' implies that the country is still a part of another unit, in this case Russia. This may seem to be a fine splitting of hairs, but given the history of the region it is not an insignificant one.

From Dan's reference, this is the significant paragraph and the reason not to use 'the' in prefix:

Geographical regions such as the Arctic, the Atlantic, the North, the West, and the prairies all require the definite article, but these are not countries. Since 1917 Ukraine has had very definite borders so it cannot be regarded as merely a region. Some people have mistakenly thought that Ukraine is a general word meaning "the borderland;' "the steppes" or "the prairies;' which would require the article. A few neanderthal writers in the past have even promoted "the Ukraine" to reflect the original meaning "the borderland" in order to diminish the international political stature of Ukraine. They betrayed their ignorance of Ukraine, or their bias against it, with this usage. See for example, the view of Robert 0. Grover in the U.S. News & World Report (Dec. 9, 1991).


 

[anono]

don't know about the Ukraine or Ukraine but on Russian I always use NA Ukraine but not V Ukraine. ( like Ukrains "demand" from Russians claiming NA Ukraine "hutrs their national dignity")

doesn't surprise me at all. i am sure no one has ever mistaken you for a nice person.

[Elen]

Yes I 'm not such nice person to make changes in my own language in wich NA Ukraine was normal for centuries just because some foreigners now decided they had a right to show me how to speak at Russian and what prepositions I should use.

though the Ukraine are not the only one who suffers about well known complex - for example Kirgiziya demands that Russians should call them now only like Кыргыстан -Kyrgystan ( never mind it's just a real jawbreaker for Russians) Also in defiance to all Russian grammar rules we just must write Tallinn-nnnnn with double N (as only double L is not enough for such proud nation) and Belarus' with a but not o  All this just hurts their national pride

PS Anono( and others) to your inform from now you should write Russia only like Rossia and Moscow only like Moskva if you are such nice person like you think about yourself and don't want to hurt our feelings:D

[anono]

god forbid that i ever hurt your feelings, your holiness.

[andrewfi]

Elen, I think it safe to suggest that these countries might want to disassociate themselves from those countries which were their former invaders and oppressors. Tallinn, has historically been spelt in that form and Estonia has simply asked that Russia follow that normal usage. Indeed, it is not just Russia which makes the same error, it seems that Norwegians and Swedes do so as well.

Ukraine is a clear example whereby in both Russian and English, the article does make a clear implication as to status. If I were Ukrainian, I might object to its use also. That said, Ukrainains are not exactly being language fascists in the matter.

I have a funny feeling that if the Brtitish were to start writning the word Paris as Paree then the French might have something to say in the matter, notwithstanding its more accurate sound when spoken by an English speaker.

You could write to the indomitable Mr Putin and ask him to make a regulation regarding the usage of Moscow. He might even reply.

[Elen]

.Elen, I think it safe to suggest that these countries might want to disassociate themselves from those countries which were their former invaders and oppressors.

  I lost a track of your thoughts. We speak about Ukraine, don't we? Or what? Remind me , please, what countries have invaded those former parts of Russian Empire:P (and please don't forget to clarify the meaning of word "invade" according to world laws but not to yours own ones)

Estonia has simply asked that Russia follow that normal usage

Don't see nothing "wrong" to "simply ask" about changing grammar rules in language of other country ? May be we should also spell Tallin by latin letters as you used to do that this way?  PS we still spell Tallin with one N (перебьётесь)

You could write to the indomitable Mr Putin and ask him to make a regulation regarding the usage of Moscow. He might even reply.

You see our Putin has other things to do except to notice how foreigners spell Moscow at their own language and "simply ask" anybody about such silly things like you do. We are not safer about inferiority complex and have no need to "prove" our freedom from "countries who ivaded us in former times" in such ridiculous way.

That said, Ukrainains are not exactly being language fascists in the matter.

I didn't understand what you mean but to my mind it's right exactly Ukraines and Latvians (don't want even to start to speak about Asian republics. At least they don't pretend at name "civilized Europeans") who behave very close to fascists when they sign the laws which forbid their citizens or non-citizens (- "nice" cast system BTW they have in Latvia ) to study at russian language

[Son of Clyde]

I almost never use "articles" when I speak to my fiance.

I guess I speak Russian style English now.

Mostly I developed this way of talking to her as a way to simplify our conversations and save some time.

[andrewfi]

Elen, you raised the other places, not I. Sorry you forgot that, it makes the rest somewhat redundant.

For everyone else:

Russians have been asked to spell the name of the capital of Estonia as 'Tallinn' as that is the correct usage when using the word in Latin script documents. Russian usage guides for Latin script spellings, incorrectly, still show the usage as being a single 'n' as exemplified by Elen.

[Elen]

Can you show me what exactly you have "simply asked" us because after that "asking" our "dermocrats" started to spell it at Cyrillic with double N ( but not only at Latin)

PS I guess we droped a question about "invading" wich you have raised not I;)

Though you may not answer at all because it would be the only I who Dan blame once more for splitting community with politic talks

[Bruce]

This is as politically charged of a language issue as you will find.  Naturally, advocates for both sides of the issue will have strong opinions on this matter.  Ukrainians want to show their independance, hence "Ukraine."  Russians, and the language for that matter refers to the territory as "The Ukraine."  Perhaps this is a case where political correctness really matters - hence the American I'll call you what you want to be called depending upon the company.   I know in my family it is The Ukraine - but I am married to someone who prides herself in her Russian heritage. 

[Elen]

It hard for Russians to be polit correct and change anything in our own language with a "demand"  made by states which constatly infringe upon interests of Russian-language communities in their own states

[Fiorella]

don't know about the Ukraine or Ukraine but on Russian I always use NA Ukraine but not V Ukraine. ( like Ukrains "demand" from Russians claiming NA Ukraine "hutrs their national dignity")

doesn't surprise me at all. i am sure no one has ever mistaken you for a nice person.
[/quote]On Russian it is grammatically correctly to say "NA Ukraine" then "V Ukraine". By the way Ukraine was always border of Rissian Empire and never was independent country.

[Fiorella]

Yes I 'm not such nice person to make changes in my own language in wich NA Ukraine was normal for centuries just because some foreigners now decided they had a right to show me how to speak at Russian and what prepositions I should use.

though the Ukraine are not the only one who suffers about well known complex - for example Kirgiziya demands that Russians should call them now only like Кыргыстан -Kyrgystan ( never mind it's just a real jawbreaker for Russians) Also in defiance to all Russian grammar rules we just must write Tallinn-nnnnn with double N (as only double L is not enough for such proud nation) and Belarus' with a but not o  All this just hurts their national pride

PS Anono( and others) to your inform from now you should write Russia only like Rossia and Moscow only like Moskva if you are such nice person like you think about yourself and don't want to hurt our feelings:D

Totally agree. And all other names of russian cities and towns please write corresponding its russian transcription and pronunciation.

[Fiorella]

передумала - бесполезно

[Leslie]

передумала - бесполезно

Is that a promise?

YIPPEEEEEE! :D:D

 

 

[Fiorella]

передумала - бесполезно

Is that a promise?

YIPPEEEEEE! :D:D

 

 

In this case it is a notice.

[START2]

Dan, thanks for the link. I never expected a a bit of history thrown in. When I asked the question, I had no idea there'd be a whole discertation on the subject. I have used both terms but since I've developed friendships there I tend to use only "ukraine" . I hear the media and my friends here still say "the ukraine".