hello there I am new to this and looking for advice

[tjk]

 hey there I was wondering what you all thought about this just got a letter from the girl and she said that she thought she would not take the train from Nikolaev to Kiev and that it would be really busy as there is a lot of people coming back from vacation. so how else would she get there???

she also said that she was bring her translator to Kiev that she uses on Nikolaev as well. Is this a good thing or bad thing??

I have not said a thing to her about pay for anything on her end yet. So I thought I would see what you all thought???

tjk,  You have the right attitude and you're asking the right questions.  Just this much puts you  miles ahead of most men who try this. You're going to make some mistakes, as we all did and do, but you are minimizing them and I think you will find what you are looking for.

Thank you very much I would like to learn as much about this before I am there and don't know what to do next. But for this first trip I would just really like to have fun and not go broke doing it also..

One thing isnt clear to me about AWEB:

maybe someone can clear it up for me and others?

How do you actually go from writing a girl through AWEB to sorting out a meeting.

Just like HiTech also said you buy the credits and then you can write to who ever you want to and then you set up a conference call and then you can ask them for there phone #, E mail, what ever you want to and then its the girl choice to give it to you or not. after that you can do pretty much whatever you want to. if she would know English well, I think that you would never have to spend another credit with
A-web. Just by talking to the girl only.


At least that is how I am doing it, but unfortunately she does not speak English so I am still using A-web. I guess that time will tell if good or bad???

Wish I would have found this site a lot earlier than I did but at least I found it now 

better late than never I always say..

[ScottinCrimea]

The summer season is June 1 through Sept 1 and it can be difficult to get reservations for the train sometimes.  By the end of September, the traffic has slowed considerably so it shouldn't be much of a problem, especially if she buys it a week or two in advance.  About the only other options are a bus or private car so I'm not sure what she has in mind.

I would strongly suggest that she NOT bring her own interpretor.  It's probably a good friend of hers and she is providing her the opportunity to earn some extra money as well as get a paid vacation at your expense.  By not using a local interpretor in Kiev you would be responsible for providing somewhere for the translator to stay which means either a separate room, a shared one with your girl, or a shared one with all three (I don't know what you have talked about as far as your sleepiing arrangements).  You may find if they are friends that they will spend more time chatting with each other and leaving you out of the conversation. You want an interpretor who works for you, not her.  You need to know what she is actually saying, not what her friend is helping her to say.  An interpretor who works for you can also be very helpful with helping you to read between the lines and giving you their independent evaluation of the girl and her feelings toward you.  I see lots of negatives and no plusses to allowing her to bring a friend as an interpretor.  Just curious as to what she uses this interpretor for in Nikolaev?  Does she have a lot of meetings with English speaking men?

Of course this brings up the other point, which is that your girl does not speak English.  If you have read through many of the posts on this subject, you will see that it is pretty generally accepted that this, while doable, adds a lot of problems to the process and requires a lot more time and effort to make it work.  Going the first time to Ukraine with no Russian skills and a girls who doesn't speak English, you will definitely need your own interpretor.  If things go badly and they bail, you don't want to be left on your own.

From this latest news, I definitely think that you need a back up plan or two.  You may be looking at a serial dater here.

[tjk]

She says in her letter that she is a very pleasant girl. and that she always helps her to translate my letters. I would assume (the worst thing one can probably do) that she works for the service (a-web). I agree that it would be much better to have one from Kiev that way she would know more about the city as well..

[Kuna]

tjk,

Let this play out but my bet is she'll ask for some financial assistance because the train ride will be too difficult.  Maybe she thinks she'll go to Odessa and fly from their...  The terp is a big red flag in my mind...  she knows terps are available in Kiev.  I think at best she is bringing a security blanket with her (or someone she can have a good time with at your expense) but my bet would be that she will ask for money for airfares (or a private car) and a promising romance will be over.

I could be and might be totally wrong... but remember not to send any money. 

You can speed the process up to your benefit by telling her you understand the train ride will be very difficult and then ask her what the alternatives are. Within a letter or two she'll either be exposed or not.

Regarding the terp...  I wouldn't kill that yet...  she's more likely to come clean on the travel arrangements if she thinks your amenable to everything else.

If you have to start searching again my advice would be to look specifically for someone with at east some English.  You'll be surprised how quickly their English improves is they are motivated.

Best of luck,

Kuna

[catzenmouse]

Is it just me or does anyone else here see this...

[Shadow]

tjk welcome and I hope that you take the advice from the guy here serious. Let me tell you that I have to admit I see some negative things like the others.
It is great that you are willing to make a trip, but be careful for the pitfalls.
First of all Nikolaev, while not being Kiev is not a bad place at all to visit. Instead of meeting in Kiev, with her problems travelling, you might just go there and meet her on home ground. Do not fall for stories that it is a bad place. Just check out some picture of Nikolaev on the Net and you will see it has its good spots as well. If she decides that her home town is not good enough for you, it might be because of other reasons as the city by itself.
Do not take her interpreter. Use your own, there are a lot of interpreters in Kiev that will be very good in translating. Use her interpreter, who probably is from the agency she enlisted in, and you will find that any of your questions will lead to some discussion about giving the 'best' answer.

Good luck on your proceedings and keep us updated.

[Turboguy]

Is it just me or does anyone else here see this...

No, I don't think I do Ken, what I see is a train wreck being averted because someone found RWD in time.   

Personally I don't think it sounds good at all.  I have to agree with the others it sounds like she is setting you up.   There are no airports in Nikolaev so the other options are a private car which is what I think she will suggest or going to Odessa and flying from there.   

[wxman]

I wish you a good trip! I'd be very wary of her bringing her friend as a terp. Her friend could very well be an excellent terp, but you need someone working for you who has no personal involvement with either of you, and is simply doing their job. This will be your first meeting and could you handle them discussing you, your good points, bad points, etc; without you having a clue about what they are talking about? You will be putting your best foot forward, and first meetings are quite often make or break. It's hard enough proving to her that you would be a good suitor, much less trying to prove it to her close friend too. She may want her friend along as moral support and to make sure nothing bad happens to her. For all we know she could have had a bad experience with someone else who visited her. So I won't accuse her of having alterior motives.  

[catzenmouse]

Perhaps TG perhaps, but I don't really see the light bulb going on. Seems to me there is a lot of justifying of the things that are quite possibly yellow, pink, and red flags. We'll see I guess and I would be more than happy to be wrong but the gut instinct doesn't give me a warm fuzzy about this.

FWIW,
 Ken

[wxman]

The more I think about the more I am becoming suspicious. A lot a valid points to make me have questions too.

[tjk]

First off I would  like to tell everyone a big THANK YOU. I really appreciate everything that you all are doing. I admit that I would have been very excited to read everything that she is writing me and would not have know anything was wrong, maybe. Oh behold the power of knowledge. And a little good luck for finding RWD

So wrote her a letter and got one back already so here it goes..

Told her that I maybe found someone to travel with to Nikolaev that way she would not have to travel and I got this back.

Todd, I am glad to get to know that you have found a partner for your trip to Kiev. But i don’t think it is a good idea to come to Nikolaev. Perhaps your friend just doesn’t know that Nikolaev is a colourless grey city. There is really nothing to do. And Kiev is really a very romantic and picturesque city with a lot of things to do. Please believe me we will have wonderful time together in Kiev.


So I also told her that I was thinking about getting a translator from Kiev since I was thinking about staying there longer than she was going to be there and this is what I got back.

Dear, I don’t think that it is a good idea to hire a translator in Kiev. I don’t know you enough to spend time with you in hotel and in other places with some stranger next to us. I will really feel very uncomfortable. Please try to understand that it is rather important for me to feel comfortable during our first meeting.


I also asked a little as to where she would like to and rather stay at a hotel or a apartment, because I would like to stay at the same hotel or whatever as she was that way I would be able to find her a little easier. So she replied.

Dear Todd, I prefer to stay in hotel as it will be rather troublesome for you to find a flat n Kiev. I know that brokers will take twice pay jus because you are a foreigner.
And I would like to mention that it will be convenient for me to stay at one room with my interpreter. It will not be a problem to share a double-bed with her. I know her already several months and she is a sweet girl.

So anyway I do have to wonder if she is a little like a security blanket for her or who knows what. I have never said anything about paying for anything for her. Like Kuha says " send no money" that I will agree with 100% and no way there.

Hey but who knows maybe her interpreter is really hot or something

I did ask her how she was planning to come to Kiev if not by train and I guess she forgot to answer that question since I have no reply from her on that thought..

I have never really been one for playing games and I probably should not jump to that conclusion. But if that is what she is doing I wonder if that would change rules for me then. I do not know if one could get into trouble or not????

Might have to start working on plan C or maybe D,E, or F. But one good thing is I will still get to see Kiev and maybe a lot more, that would and still is the main plan. Would still be nice to meet someone special thou.

Anyway I will await everyones thoughts. Maybe I should be looking into seeing more than just Kiev.

[jb]

I agree with Ken,,, it all sounds rather fishy to me, I just don't think the scam card has been played yet.  The money letter will come, no doubt about it in my mind.  Probably just before train time her mom will come down with some incurable disease, or she'll have been involved in a car crash and desperately needs assistance,,, in the form of cash.

Be careful tj.

[tjk]

Oh ya I forgot about plan B. I think that I might want to put that in play maybe now?? would everyone agree with that. So then I guess the big question is ELENA'S MODELS. I would assume that would be the preferred choice from what I have read and gathered from everything here on RWD??

If that would be a good plan I suppose I had better get after it

[catzenmouse]

tj,

 If you are going to Ukraine and you want a real agency that actually knows the girls then contact Bill and Helen at Lviv Brides. Elena's is just like any other warehouse site. They do not know the women personally and depend on the many nameless subcontractor agencies to handle everything.

 Stop paying attention to the hype and think for yourself. So far, you have not been doing that at all.

FWIW,
 Ken

[Turboguy]

Elena's does have an office in the Impressa Hotel in Kiev and does know the local gals well like other agencies.   I think more guys have found their wife through Elena's than any other 10 agencies put together.   It is very unusual to hear anyone make a bad comment about them.   Personally I would rate A-Web about the bottom of the pile and Elena's about the top. 

I will agree with Ken's point that on a short notice trip local agencies are another option but I also think if tj joins Elena's he has time to write a lot of women and tell them he will be arriving in a few weeks and should have lots and lots of good prospects to visit.

[Shadow]

tjk, the guys who think you will get a money letter are way off the mark here.
If you pursue this trip, you will be taken to the cleaners by these two ladies. Be assured that they might not ask you anything until you are in Kiev and that her interpreter will be hot as well.

Lets analyse her answers.
1. She forgot about her troubles to travel to Kiev as soon as you offered to travel to her city. Of course it is a 'grey and dull place with nothing to do'. You might counter it by telling that you are not travelling to see tourist places but to meer her.

2. She really needs her own interpreter to be comfortable. Well allright as long as she accepts that you will have your own interpreter with you as well. That will be a party.... two interpreters like lawyers sitting with the two of you :rofl:

She feels you will pay double price for an apartment, but has no problem of staying in a  - more expensive- hotel.
And she tells between the lines that she has done so before. With other words, you are not the first guy she is meeting this way.

My bet is that while on forehand there will be no mentioning, once in Kiev they will try to take whatver money and presents they can get from you, with the minimum amount of 'loving'.

[Mir]

Its a definite scam and Shadow is spot on.

[neo]

Shadow is right on the ball here, i've seen this played out before.

The guys are off mark with the "money letter" scam, although i do feel you are being set up to send money for travelling expenses way beyond inflation, for example, the fact all the trains will be full is a nonsense. Even in high season anyone with street smarts can get a rail ticket, yes its full but theres always no shows or a few empty compartments and she probably hasn't even tried to book yet but it seems a clever way to up the costs of her "travel".

Regarding Nikolaev. This is the BIGGEST red flag i have yet found. I have for my own amusement a phishing profile of a man in his 70s with no reedeeming features on  a few major places, a huge amount of his "love interest" comes from Nikolaev and the area.

I have become deeply aware over the past 2-3 years that there is a rogue agency in Nikolaev that is feeding the agencies with profiles, if you look on teh finace.com, natasha club et al prifle you can see some of the quality lingerie clad women i found from Nikolaev. On certain sites tehy donte ven bother to fill int he profile with anything any more - just a picture of a girl in her knickers so its clear to me that Nikolaev has gone into the box marked "very high risk".

I agree with the other points, there is 2 ways you can look at the comments about her city. Firstly she doesn't want you in her city. Shes a fake or a agency bait and at the last minute she will suddenly cancel. This is quite common amongsy AWEB fakers but this is the most likelyoutcome if she has managed to extract some dollars for her and her terps travelling expenses.

Second, she is planning to come to Kiev but shes a "pro daters". Pro daters are usually well known in their locality, as a result she won't want you to be seen with her, more to the point she wont want to risk anyone blowing her cover. She can also nicely dodge the questions like lets meet your family or anything that may make your situation real.

Going to kyiv is the ideal situation for a pro dater, a big anonymous city where here and her accomplice can lead you a merry dance and inflict maximum damage on your wallet and if you don't play ball they can simply vanish like a thief in the night.

Regarding the hotel. Again another red flag. Anyone with a degree of common sense knows Kiev hotels charge foreigners an arm an a leg. I'll give you an example, i went with a friend to kyiv and went to all the "ukranian" hotels (i.e budget) and a room "was not possible" so we went to the major hotels and a room was anything from 200-600 USD a NIGHT.

Rang up a buddy and we got an apartnet in the city for 45 USD a night. Apartments are the only sensible choice for big cities like Moscow, Kiev and St Pete because the hotels are such complete and utter rip offs and every RW i ever met with a view on saving money knew that.

Another red flag - in her letter she calls you "dear".

This is actually quite a significant word, my wife never ever referred to me as "dear" until we were married and then used it all the time. "dear" has a special meaning to a RW like "beloved" or "darling" - i have never met a serious, honest RW who would ever call a complete stranged "darling, dear, my baby" or any other familiarity before meeting. In every case where a girl has written something like "my love" or "darling" or another thing like that before we ever met she turned out to be a pro dater, baiter or scammer. Normally if it was in isolation it would prick my radar but combined with all the other flags im starting to get very concenred.

The situation with the terp is obvious. if she does show up then as i mentioned in true pro dater fashion she is going to lead you a merry dance and another girl is her "bodyguard" to ensure it doesnt go nasty for her.

For example, she will possibly use the "lost in translation" scam to get herself out of a whole. i.e ask for an expensive gift, then if you have a bad reaction she will use the "lost in translation" scam to say "oh no i didnt say that, i said i liked it i didnt WANT it" - a common get out of jail free card to try the water.

Next up is the "fish out of water" scam. her and her friend will take you to a resteraunt, cafe or someone on the "wrong side of town". they will have the taxi driver go about the most complicated route he can to get there so you utterly lose your bearings and have no idea which way is up. Then in the cafe they will give you absoloute hell over something she wants, for example money for english lessons, clothes, jewellery or whatever. she will be difficult with you, she will be belligerrent, argumentative and sulky. and if you protest she will simply up sticks and leave out the door. she will stand sulking on the curb while she "waits for her taxi". and this "waiting" will last anything up to 30 minutes while it dawns on you that you are in a part of town you dont know, usually in a locals bar where they speak no english and the only person who knows where you are or how to get out of the situation is her - but shes not going to help you unless you become more "amenable boyfriend" to her wishes..........

So probably a lot of men intimidated by this situation will go out and make upw ith her and make her some offer or compromise, to which she will make some little protest then "make up with you and forget all about it." then you get your taxi back to the place where she extracts her prize before dumping you back at your hotel feeling utterly fleeced and depressed.

Then theres the "robbers dog" scenario. The real scammer of course is her, but she uses the terp as the fall guy or "robbers dog" to do the fleecing. At every opportunity the girl will be looking to score bucks, sometimes in stupid ways like "she pays the taxi so its easier". you give her a big bill and the taxi guy gives her hte change ands he pockets it (the terp)  or some other silly little scam to maximise the profitability of the venture but when you complain about how much everything is costing then she will blame the "terp" for not being good at negotiating - the robber blaming the dog scenario.

Of course she wants different hotels, because she wants to make sure if you don't turn out to be a good mark then she and the terp can switch rooms or whatever and vanish having had a nice free city break to Kiev at your expense. Shes made it clear she will share a room with the terp to make it very clear no matter how well you get on youre getting "no putang"

Common pro-dater trick, pro daters are like hookers without the sex, they try and extract as much money from their mark without having any sexual contact or emotional or physical interaction with them, maybe a peck on the cheek at most if youre lucky.

its a common connection for a man that spending money extravagantly on a woman or buying them gifts gets them "gifts" in return, especially when a girl is filling your ears with honey. So the pro dater needs to put herself in a position to defeat that - for example she will share a room with her friend so you cant go back to her hotel, but she cant go back to your hotel because boo hoo her terp doesnt feel "safe" being on her own. whats a girl to do. "next time it will just be the two of us i promise wink wink"...........yeah right.

I dated a genuine RW once, she was a lovely girl, did a decent job and was had working, it was a bad winter so as a parting gift i bought her a decent winter coat. she didnt ask for it, she didint even hint at the fact she wanted a coat or anything it was just something i thought would be nice for her because she had given up an entire week to show me around and take care of me, anyway the girl was over the moon with her gift, and lets just say my gift didnt require a coat. On the other hand i've been out with a pro dater ( i knew she was0 and she wanted a 1000 USD  watch, she took me and showed it me and expected me to buy it. I told her i could buy her one duty free much better than that. she agreed. On my next trip ( i was seeing another girl) i brought back with me a very good fake rolex clad in junk diamonds. it cost me 25 USD from Hong Kong but it had "genuine box and papers" and was a good copy. she of course was thrilled - you could literally see the dollar symbols in her eyes. all i got was a peck on the cheek, we were having lunch together and within 5 minutes of the gift exchange she was getting the bill and her coat as fast as she could. taxi was already waiting outside for her and you know what? she just leapt in it and didnt even say goodbye!!!!

So i went off and met my genuine girl, and spent the day with her, that evening there was a knock at my apartment door, opened the door to find the furious pro dater who flung the watch at me, she told me that she had taken it for a "insurance valuation" (tried to sell it she means) and it was a fake.

i put on my best innocent face and said "thats terrible. someone must have switched it at the airport. i'll get it exchanged for you"....

The points of my post is that the scammers arent always so obvious at first look, some scammers are playing a long game, a pro dater by definition is a scammer but shes trying to play the long game and keep you on the hook to milk you over a long period. Such girls are the really dangerous scammers because if they have 10-20 fiances then they can actually extract more money over a period of years than your "One hit letter" scammers get due to always getting found out. the problem with pro dater scammers is that most men wont accept they are being played, and the only real giveaway is that you plan a trip and she is mysteriously out of town and only surfaces on teh last day of your visit then wants an expensive shopping spree. it winds you up all week so by the time you see her you are so grateful of her company that you will in her mind do anything for her.

My advice to you is this:

never accept a situation with a UW or RW that takes away ANY POWR OR CONTROL of the SITUATION from YOU.

I.e YOU choose where you stay
YOU choose the LOCATION
YOU choose the TRANSLATOR
YOU choose the DATE LOCATION

keep control of your einvironment, what you have done is open the door for this girl to start to manipulate you and your thinking so she can gain control of the situation, this is bad because she can then turn the screws on you.

Believe me any honest, decent respectable girl is going to be just happy you are planning to come and meet her, shes not going to make a fuss about her city or anything like that, and in my experience if she has honest marriage intentions she is going to want you to meet her family, show you her city (however grey) and get to know you on her "home ground"

I know this may seem painful advice right now, but my advice would be to drop this girl.

there are too many "Ifs" already for this to be a comfortable liason and in my expreince it only gets worse.

The reason i say this is because i know from my wifes expeirence. She was a very pretty girl and she got a lot of attention, but she was hugely selective. she didnt want to meet with a lot of men but the agency basically said if you want to stay in the agency to find your prince charming you have to meet these guys at least once, then we will move them on to something more realistic. She was the agency "showgirl" - but i tell you straight my wife said that she only went because the agency paid her taxi fare, and she would basically turn up and sit in front of the guy, usually older and he would do his best to impress her while she sat there bored watching the clock.s he would literally sit there exactly 10 minutes. 15 at the most then say ok nice meeting you and be off out the door. The agency owner got the shock of her life when i arrived because she had never known my wife spend longer than 15 minutes on a date and when i went she spent every day with me and with all her free time, but i did the WOVO think and was only 5 years older than her - so my point is most serious genuine girls will want to meet guys on home ground, despite great letters they know you could turn up and they will decide in 10 minutes or not if you are worth pursuing, so it stands to reason if she travels all the way to kyiv she cant do that so she is either motivated by a free time in kiev with her friend at your expense or by a pro dater agenda but the last thing i would expect for a first meeting is she is being motivated by a desire to make your life easier.

Of course the final decision is up to you.

You are probably taking the right course of action, let her play it out in her letters to see if she starts maniputing you.

What you need to do if your trip is set now is:

Go to kyiv. Book your own apartment through a reputable big agency. Write to her and say you have already booked your OWN apartment, if she wants to come to a hotel and stay in a hotel in kyiv thats fine but you feel more comfortable in a Apartment.

Get a copy of the rough guide or another such travellers bible and pull the list of budget hotels in kyiv. find a hotel used by russians and give her hte details of it, i.e make it CLEAR that shes being booked into a standard hotel and not some 5 star swank planace with a mini bar

If she protests and says something like "this hotel isnt safe, or the hotel is a flea ridden pit" then you know you are dealing with a pro dater or a good time girl or someone with far too expensive tastes for her income. Every time i travelled with my ex model wife in russia she booked us into a locals economy hotel and avoided all the intourist money traps. Any girl who wants a 5 star hotel in kyiv is the same as in NYC LA. would you really invited a date and put her up at hte hilton????

So basically if she protests the hotel then walk away.

Figure out what her travel dates will be, look onlinje and you will find several travel agents who can book you train tickets in ukraine for a small fee like 10 USD or whatever, ask if they can get hte tickets on teh train in coupe (4 bunk) class on those dates, if tickets are available tell ehr to send you her and her friends details and you will book teh tickets for her and the agents will send them to her.

Then tell her you will make a reservation for the hotel at her. Regarding money she should be capable of funding her own meals etc for the journey and tell her you booked her half board in the hotel and will buy her and friend dinner.

Dont give her cash for anything. dont buy her any gifts, dont spend any money on her, make sure you DO NOT GET IN A TAXI WITH HER unless you ARE CONFIDENT you know ENOUGH URKANIAN to BOOK THE TAXI TO YOUR APARTMENT.

next up, when you book your apartment get the address in english, in russian and ukrainian, get a map, get the apartment booker to mark the locaiton of the apatment on the map witha c ross. if you get stuck somewhere then show the map and directions (in russian or ukrainina) to the taxi driver and learn by heart how much to here and learn some basic numeric values.

When you get to kyiv and go out with this girl STICK to the CENTRE of town, dont let her take you somewhere - kyiv is a easy city to find yourself round in the centre, there are plenty of bars and cafes and places so theres no need to go off on her advenures if she plans them.

Stick to doing toursit stuff with her and stay out of shops at all costs. if she takes you anywhere near a gucci, prada or other expensive boutque what i STRONGLY suggest you do is basically tell her "you girls feel free to look at some clotehs for a couple of hours, im going ot check out the WHATEVER and ill meet you at XYZ mcdonalds or cafe at 6pm or whatever town.

if you stay in the shop with her, shell try it on, take it to the counter and humiliate you into buying it for her in front of hte shop asssitant. so dont let her do that - simply dont engage in any shopping trips - leave her and her friend to it.

Stay out of 5 star resteraunts, theres lots of small cafes and places in kyiv that do better food at a 10th of the price. if the place she takes you has red velvet ropes outside, a door man with a uzi and 5 S class mercs parked up it will cost you 100 bucks a head minimum. dont got htere. tell her you got a stomach ache and need to go home, but odnt even set foot in the sort of place that has red carpet outside the door. Dont think this sort of wasteful resteraunt visting will impress a girl or is romantic. everyone knows there is a tiny cafe that does the best chicken kyiv in town for less than 5 USD a head including drinks so theres no need for that sort of showboating and its anotehr sign of a good time party girl.

So thats just some thoughts for you to chew over. Try to take everything on board - you have made your first cardinal error in that you "think she is a nice girl because she said so in her letters" - no offence but thats like a Murderer telling you to sleep well........

A few know i've sailed close to the wind WRT to high risk girls over the years, and ive met my fair share of pro daters and good time girls, if you are an experienced guy with a lot of time on your hands then you can have fun baiting these girls and dnagling them on a string always promising and never giving - but if you are a bit green then they are best avoided. To the wisened every trick they pull has been seen before, but if they spot any sort of weakness in your defences they will go for the kill, so be careful out there. these girls got skills.....

And as usual, don't get carried away with your lust over common sense. first sniff of knickers and its easily done even for the best of it, if you cant control your randyness then there are plenty of high class escort agencies in kyiv who will sort you out a tasty tart for a night of rampant meaningless sex for about 300 euroes a night, its not cheap but its a darnsight cheaper getting a night of pro action than spending 10 times that on a pro dater who doesnt so much as give you a sniff in return and leaves you stood at borispol with your XXXX in your hand wondering where yall your money went.....


Good luck and stay sharp!!!!

[Shadow]

A very short and to the point post Neo  I hope that tjk will read it carefully as it might be his first time experience with these predators pro-daters.

[neo]

Shadow,

Its that russian bad habit i picked up of "why use 3 words when 30000 will do". i once caught my wife asking a taxi driver "when he last got some sleep and were his tyresnew" during a negotiation for a fare. Russians love detail. no wonder nothing gets done. have you seen the q in mcdonalds? "big mac and fries" turns into a 1 hour exchange of ideas, philosophy and social comment.

or maybe i just had too much caffeine today

[tjk]

Neo-

 I would like to thank you for all the advice and I will take it to heart and will probably drop the girl or maybe I will get in a car accident before I go and will not be able to make it or something.

I will admit that I did get a few chuckles from your letter there was some funny stuff there and i agree with everything that you said and I will not waste my time meeting her. For that I and my wallet would like to thank you very much...

I am sure there are some good ones out there and I will just have to do a little more looking. No my travel plans are not yet made so I still have  a open window there. I would like to go the end of Sept or first of Oct. but I have not decided for sure yet.

I am still going to go just to see the country and the sites but I would like to meet someone also just to make the trip a little funner.

Her and the girl from Odessa have always called me dear and darling so I now know that is a big no no there.

I do not know if I should play with her a little more thru some letters or not don't want it to come back and bit my own A#$.

I didn't write her back last night just so I could wait and see what I got for a response so I might have to write to her and tell her that I also need to feel comfortable meeting her for the first time and that I have a interp. as well. Just to see what she would say to that. If I have my own, which is a must anyway, then maybe I could still meet her and would have someone in my corner with me then???
Or should I just cut the lose and walk away now???


So I will await all your thoughts, make her a little nervous maybe??

[wxman]

I would say cut loose and walk now. The flat story she gave you is all garbage. You can easily find a flat in Kiev for a reasonable price, much less than a hotel. She can too. She sounds like she has made this trip before, and I would bet several times.

[HiTech]

I agree, the Hotel is a real deal breaker, I have had the feel comfortable with own terp story, and the story was legit, but no way on the "could not take train and the hotel" lines.

And you are still welcome to travel with me Todd but you actually have time to line up a bunch of dates . If you are still interested in FSU, line up some dates or at least agencies. The lesson to learn are spending time with the women, along with the country.

HiTech

[ScottinCrimea]

This has been a great thread for anyone new to the venture.  I agree with all that, based on what you have told us, this woman's agenda is not the same as yours.  neo's thread provides a real voice of experience.  Not many of us can afford such experience.  There must be a healthy bit of paranoia, bu you will find something with any RW that maybe doesn't make sense. (Hey, they're women and they're Russian!)  It's when more and more of these pop up, and in a pattern that those more experienced have seen many times, that you can begin to seriously question the woman's intent.  It's when men rush into it before the pattern really emerges that they get chewed up and spit out.  Your commitment to any one woman should be directly proportional to the amount of time you have known her.  Don't invest a lot of emotion, money or time in a woman that you barely know.

Don't let this first experience discourage you.  There really are a lot of great women in Ukraine that are serious in their intentions.  They will be happy to meet you anywhere, even their home town, and I've never met a sincere woman yet who, if you suggest a hotel, doesn't say it's better to find an apartment and who will offer to find one for you.

I think I did a lot right when I first went.  I did my homework, used a reliable agency, and planned everything.  I had all travel arrangements and reservations made in advance and arranged for an English speaking driver to meet me at every point.  Even after all the time we had written to each other I wanted to be sure I could manage independently if things didn't work out with her and at least be able to enjoy my trip.  I had the agency to back me up and the name and number of another local agency if that was necessary.  I didn't consider an interpretor because she spoke decent English and I didn't realize how difficult it would be to get around not knowing Russian.  If thngs had gone bad, I would have been scrambling.

Mine was a WOVO trip.  I know many talk about the virtues of WMVM and I don't want to start that debate again.  Let me just say it wasn't something I wasn't interested in doing.  I didn't have any other women on back up and if things hadn't worked out with her I would not have looked to find another woman on that trip.  I would have simply wandered around on my own enjoying the sights and soaking in the culture.

I agree that we have maybe prevented a train wreck here.  If so, RWD is serving its purpose.

[Shadow]

tjk, right now it will probably be best to drop her. If you are going to see the country in Sept or Oct you have some work to do, and that is to write new women. Find someone who is interested to meet you, no strings attached. If possible one who speaks English well enough to arrange taxis.