Hi I'm new here and any information or help is welcome!

[Jazzyclassy]

I agree with Thomas in  many things about getting to know each other better, for multiple trips and so on

I can not criticise Kuna and his relations cos I do not know his whole story and he seems to be a nice guy and it is nice that he found the one he loves.So for him his way might be the best .... he does not know how to do it the other way for example

As for my experience , we have known each other for 2 years  and2 months already with 4 trips to me , we chat every day during  work  and talk on the phone every evening and still we learn everyday new features of each other and we know it is gonna be difficult for both of us during our life together , but we are slowly getting there..

[Gator]

Interesting, I think both Kuna and LivinginUkraine would have excellent insights to share with newbies.  And here they are squabbling.

I hope the two of you can respect each other for whom you are.  Your approaches differ.

Few people, Thomas, are in the position you enjoy to be able to move to Ukraine.  I am certain that the move was not easy, yet you made it happen.  I applaud you for having the courage to do it, making it happen, and still recognizing that you still have much to discover.

Most people are in Kuna’s shoes.  They have a demanding job that does not allow them to just pick up and travel anytime.  To pursue a FSUW, they must be very selective, plan carefully and execute wisely.  Kuna’s approach in screening women, selecting whom to visit, paving the way for his visit, and making battlefield decisions was superb.  And superbly captured in one of the best trip reports ever.

Did Kuna take a risk?  Yes.  Larger risk than Thomas’s?  Yes in some regards, but to move your business to Ukraine is a risk also, even if it is transportable.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Interesting, I think both Kuna and LivinginUkraine would have excellent insights to share with newbies.  And here they are squabbling.

I hope the two of you can respect each other for whom you are.  Your approaches differ.

Few people, Thomas, are in the position you enjoy to be able to move to Ukraine.  I am certain that the move was not easy, yet you made it happen.  I applaud you for having the courage to do it, making it happen, and still recognizing that you still have much to discover.

Most people are in Kuna’s shoes.  They have a demanding job that does not allow them to just pick up and travel anytime.  To pursue a FSUW, they must be very selective, plan carefully and execute wisely.  Kuna’s approach in screening women, selecting whom to visit, paving the way for his visit, and making battlefield decisions was superb.  And superbly captured in one of the best trip reports ever.

Did Kuna take a risk?  Yes.  Larger risk than Thomas’s?  Yes in some regards, but to move your business to Ukraine is a risk also, even if it is transportable.

Very good points Gator.  I am sure a lot of new people may see some insights into our little squabble. 

I talked everyday to my now wife for almost 8 months before I moved here.  My business is done via the internet so it wasn't too difficult to take the chance.  I actually sacrificed a lot to building my business to where I could work anywhere.  I am sure anyone could do the same if they worked at it but that may be for another thread.

The jury is still out whether Kuna's battlefield strategy worked or not.  We really don't know whether his criteria was correct for choosing a mate.  I am wondering if we are talking about a wife or produce with some of the terminology being used in this thread. That was the whole point in my posts here in this thread.

The only problem I have with Kuna is his egotistical view that he is better than others because he got engaged on his first visit.  Getting engaged here in Ukraine is not a difficult thing to do.  I personally think it is a bad idea.  We shall see if his gamble pays off or not.

Like Kuna does in other threads, I will voice my opinion. 


Edited:  There are a lot of things you cannot control making planning useless.  I will grab some popcorn and watch to see if Kuna"s plan was good enough.  It is obvious he doesn't believe in bad luck so if anything doesn't work out it will be on his shoulders.  I honestly hope it all works out but have strong reservations based on his personna here.


Thomas

[Simoni]

Interesting, I think both Kuna and LivinginUkraine would have excellent insights to share with newbies.  And here they are squabbling.

I hope the two of you can respect each other for whom you are.  Your approaches differ.

Nice post.

Gator, the reason Kuna is finally catching flak here is that he has had no respect for the approaches of others.  Not only that, he attacks people who did it differently than himself. Vile attacks. I hope he matures and develops the same intelligent insights that you have posted above.

[catzenmouse]

 

I actually sacrificed a lot to building my business to where I could work anywhere.  I am sure anyone could do the same if they worked at it but that may be for another thread.

I think that would be an interesting topic over in the Odds And Ends area as it is something that has come up numerous times here.

Ken

[KenC]

Just wanted to throw my opinion in here.

Kuna came here "young & dumb", but listened and learned rapidly.  He executed a marvelous trip with a great trip report.  Sometimes his advice exceeds his experience level and he surely could be more flexible to different methods employed (successfully I might add) by others.  That being said, Kuna gives some of the best advice on RWD and I respect the fact that he can smell bad and misleading advice given by some and is not shy in pointing it out.

Thomas is the "new" guy here but has a lot to share and has already made an impact with his good advice and makes an immediate impression that he has a lot of good information to share.  His "in your face" style of posting will irritate some, but his ability to make good points should never be overlooked and should be appreciated.  I have seen members make a hundred posts that do not say as much as Thomas has in only a few.

Simoni come on!  Toughen up a bit, dude.  Kuna hardly "attacked" you by mentioning that he didn't agree with your take on luck.  If a little jab sets you off so much that you write a long winded post defending your position (and attacking Kuna), expect more jabs.

To all, I say that debate is good.  To challenge another's opinion is good.  To support your opinion with facts and logic is good.  Just keep the blows above the belt and let us see a good clean fight, er debate!
KenC

[KenC]

Others (like Simoni) would like to put it down to bad luck. I contend there are MANY things a newbie can do to improve his "luck".

This is a "vile attack"?  Sorry, I do not even see it as an attack.  Kuna referenced you as one of the proponents that luck has to do with your success or failure.  Is that not what you believe?  You are being waaaaay too sensitive if you think this is an attack.  And borderline nuts if you classify it as "vile."  Aren't you being as intolerant of opinions that do not match your own as you accuse Kuna?
KenC

[LiveFromUkraine]

Just wanted to throw my opinion in here.

Kuna came here "young & dumb", but listened and learned rapidly.  He executed a marvelous trip with a great trip report.  Sometimes his advice exceeds his experience level and he surely could be more flexible to different methods employed (successfully I might add) by others.  That being said, Kuna gives some of the best advice on RWD and I respect the fact that he can smell bad and misleading advice given by some and is not shy in pointing it out.

Thomas is the "new" guy here but has a lot to share and has already made an impact with his good advice and makes an immediate impression that he has a lot of good information to share.  His "in your face" style of posting will irritate some, but his ability to make good points should never be overlooked and should be appreciated.  I have seen members make a hundred posts that do not say as much as Thomas has in only a few.

Simoni come on!  Toughen up a bit, dude.  Kuna hardly "attacked" you by mentioning that he didn't agree with your take on luck.  If a little jab sets you off so much that you write a long winded post defending your position (and attacking Kuna), expect more jabs.

To all, I say that debate is good.  To challenge another's opinion is good.  To support your opinion with facts and logic is good.  Just keep the blows above the belt and let us see a good clean fight, er debate!
KenC

Thanks Ken and some good points.  Debating is great, especially when it doesn't get to personal insults.  I hope nothing I said would be seen as personally attacking Kuna.  It really isn't the case simply because I don't know him.  I sincerely hope everything works out for him.

We all can learn from a good debate.  I always thought I was good at debating and found out that was not the case once I met my wife.   

Now I am in debate training for the rest of my life. 

Edited:  If Kuna thinks I was attacking him then he may want to toughen up himself.


Thomas

[Simoni]

Simoni come on!  Toughen up a bit, dude. 

But that was NOT my take on luck. That is why I responded.  He made up a position and attributed it to me.

Toughen up?  That's what I just did. Rather than continue to ignore Kuna's misguided jabs, I decided to break my silence and respond back. Why?  Because his statement was incorrect.  And misguiding.  

Kuna wrote about guys who make multiple trips, "Others (like Simoni) would like to put it down to bad luck."

No, it's not bad luck. I never "put it down to bad luck," as Kuna asserts.  It's a good thing if you write a girl, meet her, and then have the intelligence to ignore her beauty and continue searching for a soul you can connect with.  

I did it my way; he did it his way.  We are both satisfied.

And that's my point.  There are different pathways to success.  

So don't post, as Kuna did, that people who made multiple trips are failures and should not be posting here.  That is my major disagreement with  Kuna.

Diversity of advise is a good thing.

[KenC]

Thomas,
AHHHH, debating a Russian wife is a whole other can of worms.  You will never win that one, dude!  Or I should say that you never win the debate while in the process of debating.  But I will let you in on a secrete I have learned over the years being married to Lena.  It is best to shut up and walk away from the debate itself becuase the debate has little to do with if she agrees or disagrees with you.  RW dig their heels in, in such circumstances.  (Think Stalingrad)  No amount of logic, facts or persuasive conversation will get them to give up their position.  You will only truly know if you "won" the debate, if she responds to what you said the next day.  So debate your ass off, shut up and wait to see if it takes!
KenC

[Simoni]

Others (like Simoni) would like to put it down to bad luck. I contend there are MANY things a newbie can do to improve his "luck".

This is a "vile attack"?  Sorry, I do not even see it as an attack. 

LOL  No, Ken...that was not a vile attack at all.  Just wrong information.

The vile attacks came in others of his mostly negative posts about lots of people, not me.  I could list them, but why?  My purpose for responding was to correct his misinformation on this single point he chose to post.  Kuna does challenge other people, why is he so sensitive when he gets the same treatment back?

[LiveFromUkraine]

Thomas,
AHHHH, debating a Russian wife is a whole other can of worms.  You will never win that one, dude!  Or I should say that you never win the debate while in the process of debating.  But I will let you in on a secrete I have learned over the years being married to Lena.  It is best to shut up and walk away from the debate itself becuase the debate has little to do with if she agrees or disagrees with you.  RW dig their heels in, in such circumstances.  (Think Stalingrad)  No amount of logic, facts or persuasive conversation will get them to give up their position.  You will only truly know if you "won" the debate, if she responds to what you said the next day.  So debate your ass off, shut up and wait to see if it takes!
KenC

I will take your advice on that Ken.  I am think you are right.  Sometimes I need to swallow my ego and nod in agreement. It is the logic used that kills me.    I am getting better though.  


So much to learn...


Thomas

[KenC]

Thomas,
I am telling you that it works for me. I  have had knock down drag out debates with Lena where she would never concede an inch in her position.  And then the next day, she would take or not take the action exactly as I said.  TFF!
KenC

[LiveFromUkraine]

Thomas,
I am telling you that it works for me. I  have had knock down drag out debates with Lena where she would never concede an inch in her position.  And then the next day, she would take or not take the action exactly as I said.  TFF!
KenC

One of my problems that I am overcoming, is the need to help her.  We have a 10 year age difference.  I have some more experiences than she has being older.  I found myself trying to help her too much instead of letting her learn for herself.  I am getting a lot better at this and we have talked about it. 

The funny thing is she does similiar things living here.  Of course she knows more about Ukraine than I do but I get it into my thick head it works one way only to find out she was correct.  What a pair we make.


Regarding your advice, I already see that it works.  I just thought about some of our "Debates" and it did work out the same way you described.  All the fighting was for nothing the next day.  Sometimes I am too logical and just need to go with the flow more.



Thomas

[KenC]

Thomas,
Your first mistake is thinking that logic has anything to do with debating a RW!

The whole experience vs. youthful exuberance thing is much more severe in a marriage where the age gap is 25 years like ours.  I had some long talks regarding this issue with I/O.  I had to learn to back off and quit treating Lena like my kid and more like my spouse.  The most difficult thing to do is to back off and let them make their own mistakes. But that is exactly what is needed sometimes.
KenC

[Simoni]

I had to learn to back off and quit treating Lena like my kid and more like my spouse.  The most difficult thing to do is to back off and let them make their own mistakes. But that is exactly what is needed sometimes.
KenC

On the kid thought...I knew this in my head, but in reality it is a thin line you walk.  With Marina, I gave her her own bank account (linked to mine) and did not tell her how much she could spend on clothes, etc.  She has been frugal. So money has not been a problem.  The first year I put us in a low level apartment and we roughed it.  Her only objection there was it was "in a village."  Never mind the metro area was 5 million; we just were not beside skyscrapers.

But our arguments the first year mostly concerned how bad the US was and how great the FSU is.  After 6 months, I quit arguing, and things improved.

I'm fortunate that Marina is by nature a positive person (the most positive of any fsu girl I dated by far) and she does not like conflict.   So now our arguments are mostly political--over Bush. Can you imagine?  Me, defend him?  But I do, or try to.  I'll be glad when that SOB is gone :-) LOL

The argument yesterday was over politics, too.  Marina is taking a university class in International Relations, and the discussion was East Germany vs West Germany, and why the economy in the west was so much better than the east when the country reunited.   Her view was that "those bastards killed half my people" and "deserve to be punished!"  I did not even argue, given the tone in her voice :-)

I've learned to pick my fights with her, knowing that I have to be 100% correct, and then still will likely lose 

Your first mistake is thinking that logic has anything to do with debating a RW!

Classic line, KenC 

[ScottinCrimea]

I have to second everyone in the discussion of "debates" with an FSUW.  Once they dig in their heels, a team of horses won't budge them.  Sometimes the only way I know that I have gotten my point across is when I hear her repeating my points or advice to someone else. I think the most frustrating thing about dieagreeing with my wife, though, is that I usually find out that she was right.

Thomas, One of the biggest issues we had when I first moved to Ukraine was that I went from being a man who understood the system and could handle myself in any situation to being like a child in many ways.  She had to handle things that are normally the man's job.  This was tough on my ego and tough on her impressions of me as a man.  She didn't understand how different things are in the US so couldn't understand how a grown man did not know how to do some things that were simple for her but totally foreign for me.  I had to swallow my pride too many times to count.  Now that she is here with me in the US, she can finally see me on my own turf and has a much better understanding of the type of man that I am.  Realizing how different many things are here and having this feeling herself of being the "child" has given her a whole new perspective on things.  Our relationship was great before, but incredibly better now.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I have to second everyone in the discussion of "debates" with an FSUW.  Once they dig in their heels, a team of horses won't budge them.  Sometimes the only way I know that I have gotten my point across is when I hear her repeating my points or advice to someone else. I think the most frustrating thing about dieagreeing with my wife, though, is that I usually find out that she was right.

Thomas, One of the biggest issues we had when I first moved to Ukraine was that I went from being a man who understood the system and could handle myself in any situation to being like a child in many ways.  She had to handle things that are normally the man's job.  This was tough on my ego and tough on her impressions of me as a man.  She didn't understand how different things are in the US so couldn't understand how a grown man did not know how to do some things that were simple for her but totally foreign for me.  I had to swallow my pride too many times to count.  Now that she is here with me in the US, she can finally see me on my own turf and has a much better understanding of the type of man that I am.  Realizing how different many things are here and having this feeling herself of being the "child" has given her a whole new perspective on things.  Our relationship was great before, but incredibly better now.

Wow Scott, the picture you painted was like looking into a mirror.  I went through a lot of those same things.  I hated not being able to communicate and having someone speak for me.  Or having to be read menus just to order food.  It doesn't bother me now but what a shock to the ego that was in the beginning.  We got a lot closer because of it.  Luckily Sveta is fluent in English (when she is not nervous  ) and that will help her a lot in her adjustment. 

We both can fully relate to women going over seas to be with their husbands.  I really have a lot of respect for them and hope their husbands truly try to take the time to help them get accustomed to their new surroundings.  I know I really grew as a person because of these experiences. 


Thomas

[Simoni]

Wow Scott, the picture you painted was like looking into a mirror.  I went through a lot of those same things.  I hated not being able to communicate and having someone speak for me.  Or having to be read menus just to order food. 

Same here.  I've had two extended stays in Ukraine, living in a rented flat.  I hated not being the man, and fought to keep the little things I could do.  For example, using the key to open the doors to our flat.  Marina would try to take it from me when I struggled with the three turns, with my too big hands fighting the door frame.  But I insisted on doing it....because most things I could not do.

One funny memory...we were eating ordering lunch in a cafe, Marina, myself and a gf for hers.

Each girl ordered and then the waitress looked at me.  Marina told her what I wanted, but she ignored her and asked me.  My Russian was just good enough to order :-)   Marina thought it funny that this waitress wanted to talk to the man-- not the girls :-) LOL

[LiveFromUkraine]

Same here.  I've had two extended stays in Ukraine, living in a rented flat.  I hated not being the man, and fought to keep the little things I could do.  For example, using the key to open the doors to our flat.  Marina would try to take it from me when I struggled with the three turns, with my too big hands fighting the door frame.  But I insisted on doing it....because most things I could not do.

One funny memory...we were eating ordering lunch in a cafe, Marina, myself and a gf for hers.

Each girl ordered and then the waitress looked at me.  Marina told her what I wanted, but she ignored her and asked me.  My Russian was just good enough to order :-)   Marina thought it funny that this waitress wanted to talk to the man-- not the girls :-) LOL

I get a lot of that to Simon.  Normally the waiter/waitress talks to me and I just turn to Sveta and smile.  Most people are surprised I am American.  I must look Russian because they normally talk to me and I just nod a lot.   

When I first came here, everything I tried to do in the kitchen was taken away from me.  I would be about ready to make a sandwich and then the knife in my hand disappears and a sandwich is replaced.  I hated it at first because I am pretty independant.  I am hypocritical because I try to help her even when she doesn't want help.  I still laugh at the time I cleaned the bathroom out.  Sveta pretty much wanted to marry me right then and there. 


Thomas

[Simoni]

I've learned that Russian look, too.  People on the street ask me questions.  Grocery store, too. And Marina is so proud!  Like I've stepped up one rung on the evolutionary ladder 

[Mir]

Strangely I have been approached as being Russian/Ukrainian many times from my very first visits to Ukraine ?!!

[jen]

It probably has something to do with your facial features (although of course there is a huge variety of appearances in the multiethnic FSU), and probably also facial expression?  I know that when I am in Russia, people often ask me if I am of Russian descent (although I'm not), while my husband never got mistaken for a local -- maybe b/c his features are more Anglo-Saxonish.  Or maybe something about the way he walks etc.;  Russian friends told me they could always identify Americans (as opposed to other foreigners) by their swinging gates, ready smiles, etc.

[ScottinCrimea]

I don't really think it has much to do with your features.  Think about it- in the US, if you have a question you will approach someone irregardless of whether they look Chinese, Mexican, whatever, with the natural assumption that if they are in the US, they speak English.

[SANDRO43]

The argument yesterday was over politics, too.  Marina is taking a university class in International Relations, and the discussion was East Germany vs West Germany, and why the economy in the west was so much better than the east when the country reunited. Her view was that "those bastards killed half my people" and "deserve to be punished!"

Which shows how we all are istinctively biased when viewing historical facts.

In 1980 I attended our yearly IBM Sales Convention in Berlin (West), and the event included a "guided" visit to East Berlin. Obviously the above topic was raised smugly by our contingent, and our guide (an English-speaking girl in her late 20s) replied:

"You should remember that :
1. We did NOT enjoy the benefits of a Marshall Plan, and
2. Our Russian "brothers" carted off to the USSR most of our remaining industrial equipment."

Food for thought .