Character Problems with RM and RW

[WmGO]

still I fail to understand how Russian literature in anyway glorifies bad character any more then compareable literature of any other country/nation/culture?

Mir and BF,

That part of my  "thought provoking" comments (as I am now referring to it) was
poorly written and too short to understand. Here is what I meant: writers in any country  are often more than any single thing commentators on their own country's people, culture and society etc.  This is especially true of the great Russian writers (and
also the great Ukrainian writer Schevchenko). I invite everyone to read the great Russian works of literature to see how *they* comment on *their* country, people, society and culture.........

In retrospect, I couldn't have been more wrong. I say this with caution in hopes that I don't offend anyone, but it's God's truth: If you make enough friends in the FSU or learn enough about your gf's extended family/friends/co-workers/acquaintances, you will very likely uncover a Faulkneresque labyrinth of adultery, suicide, alcoholism, mental illness, and the sort of familial betrayal that would seem unfathomable outside of the context of those crappy Latin American soaps that Russians love to watch......."there is no unforgivable sin to a Russian person but to live a boring life"....

And you will see a lot of that presented and discussed in Russian literature....

[Simoni]

As such, I have been able to learn and understand much more about the FSU than the average WM who has never studied anything about this unique culture and just goes over to meet a woman or women, studies nothing and then returns home.

WmGo....reading your long and detailed post made me sad.  For you.

So much time spent, and so little learned.

Sayings like "he can't see the forest for the trees" come to my mind.

For the truth of the matter is, the fsu you describe is vastly different than the one Gator and I saw.   

Personally, I did see lots of bad.  But I saw even more good.

I think the difference is that you have not yet married into a Russian family. For when you do, you crack that inner circle.  Only then will you see the real fsu.

     The biggest propaganda is that Russian and Ukrainian are the "world's greatest women". This is balogna. A small MINORITY of Russian women fall into that catergory  (sic)

And yes, it is a land filled with treasures.  I have one, and I saw countless others.

[KenC]

WmGo....reading your long and detailed post made me sad.  For you.

So much time spent, and so little learned.

Sayings like "he can't see the forest for the trees" come to my mind.

For the truth of the matter is, the fsu you describe is vastly different than the one Gator and I saw.   

Personally, I did see lots of bad.  But I saw even more good.

I think the difference is that you have not yet married into a Russian family. For when you do, you crack that inner circle.  Only then will you see the real fsu.

And yes, it is a land filled with treasures.  I have one, and I saw countless others.

Simoni,
That is in direct conflict with what Groovlstk said:

In retrospect, I couldn't have been more wrong. I say this with caution in hopes that I don't offend anyone, but it's God's truth: If you make enough friends in the FSU or learn enough about your gf's extended family/friends/co-workers/acquaintances, you will very likely uncover a Faulkneresque labyrinth of adultery, suicide, alcoholism, mental illness, and the sort of familial betrayal that would seem unfathomable outside of the context of those crappy Latin American soaps that Russians love to watch. I heard something once that pretty much sums it up: "there is no unforgiveable sin to a Russian person except for leading a boring life."

Makes one wanna say "HMMMM?"
KenC

[Misha]

I think the difference is that you have not yet married into a Russian family. For when you do, you crack that inner circle.  Only then will you see the real fsu.

As opposed to the surreal FSU? I am married and I have "cracked the inner circle." I can tell you that not all Russian families are happy and collegial. Like Groovlstk I have observed that there is often conflict, alcoholic uncles (and aunts), competition between siblings, gossip, fights, and back-stabbing that makes the "inner circle" hardly the peaceful idyll that you seem to imply it is. Throw in the fact that people are in competition for scarce  resources and living space (due to overpriced housing in most cities) and you truly have the making of a soap opera in many Russian families.

[Gator]

KenC,

I see no conflict.

you will very likely uncover a Faulkneresque labyrinth of adultery, suicide, alcoholism, mental illness, and the sort of familial betrayal that would seem unfathomable outside of the context of those crappy Latin American soaps 

BFD!  My family (and by “family” I mean my four grandparents and their siblings and all descendents of same)  is not from Faulkner’s Mississippi, but Tennessee, and we had all of Groovlstk's black sheep plus convicted felons (car thief and a cousin nicknamed “Bucky the Bookie”), lesbian, philander, unconvicted shotgun killer, racists, pathological liar, … and while we were not proud of every deed,  I remember strong family connection and abundant love. 

We also had plenty of heroes:  101st Airborne WWII major (two combat jumps), successful business owners, pro athletes, and two whom I am not sure where to place: horse trader and politician.

The point is that good people exist everywhere, even in maligned Russia.  It is the man’s job to find the good women.  I had no problem.

[Simoni]

As opposed to the surreal FSU? I am married and I have "cracked the inner circle." I can tell you that not all Russian families are happy and collegial. Like Groovlstk I have observed that there is often conflict, alcoholic uncles (and aunts), competition between siblings, gossip, fights, and back-stabbing that makes the "inner circle" hardly the peaceful idyll that you seem to imply it is. Throw in the fact that people are in competition for scarce  resources and living space (due to overpriced housing in most cities) and you truly have the making of a soap opera in many Russian families.

I didn't say they were all happy, either.  But what I did disagree with that the statement
"A small MINORITY of Russian women fall into that catergory"

I found lots of very good families.  And almost universally, children there taken better care of aging parents than we do in the USA.  Yes, I know that is agency stereotype.  But in reality this one is true.

[Simoni]

KenC,

I see no conflict.

I don't either, KenC.  Bad exists there.  So does good.  Just like everywhere.

Yes, I saw many of the things Groove saw.  I also know that both Groove and I found good girls.  I also know that this summer I spent 5 weeks in Ukraine, sharing life with families there.  Just like in America, some families were broken.  But within that "inner circle" I saw much joy and happiness and love of life.

Extreme views either way are probably wrong. 

[Misha]

I found lots of very good families.  And almost universally, children there taken better care of aging parents than we do in the USA.  Yes, I know that is agency stereotype.  But in reality this one is true.

Define better. Most aging parents live with their children or perhaps to the point children live with aging parents who received apartments from the Soviet State. In some cases, the aging parents are treated with respect, in other cases they are exploited and abused by their children or grandchildren. Very option aging parents do not have options: there are few quality "retirement homes" for the elderly as there are in the USA and other Western countries.

[Gator]

Simoni wrote,

And almost universally, children there taken better care of aging parents than we do in the USA.

I agree.  Observed the same.  Although it was my Moscow woman who took care of her dying grandmother, while her awful mother (grandmother's daughter) did nothing other than feed her on occasion (and then complain).   This spoke volumes to me about the good heart of my Moscow woman. 

Gabaub,

there are few quality "retirement homes" for the elderly as there are in the USA and other Western countries

True, but if you asked a Western older person where he/she wanted to live (and die), most would say in their homes near their families, and not with a bunch of old people.

Gabaub,

In some cases, the aging parents are treated with respect, in other cases they are exploited and abused by their children or grandchildren.

What is the source of your opinion?

[Simoni]

In some cases, the aging parents are treated with respect, in other cases they are exploited and abused by their children or grandchildren. Very option aging parents do not have options: there are few quality "retirement homes" for the elderly as there are in the USA and other Western countries.

Gabaub, I have spent thousands of hours ministering in US "retirement homes" and visiting friends, and believe me, it is a constant fight to prevent old folks there to NOT be abused.  It's a good thing that "option" is not an option in the fsu. 

It's much better for parents to live with their children, surrounded by grandchildren, than to die with strangers in a nursing home.

[Misha]

Gabaub,
True, but if you asked a Western older person where he/she wanted to live (and die), most would say in their homes near their families, and not with a bunch of old people.

Gabaub,

What is the source of your opinion?

Well, over 10 years of experience with Russians and close to 3 years living in Russia over this time. Yeah, many Western older people might want to live in their homes near their families, but many would prefer not to live in cramped apartments with children and grandchildren sharing a couple of rooms, and in some cases living with alcoholic children, and too often ignored and neglected and occasionally abused. 

[Misha]

Gabaub, I have spent thousands of hours ministering in US "retirement homes" and visiting friends, and believe me, it is a constant fight to prevent old folks there to NOT be abused.  It's a good thing that "option" is not an option in the fsu. 

It's much better for parents to live with their children, surrounded by grandchildren, than to die with strangers in a nursing home.

I was very close with my grandfather and he spent his final years in a retirement home when he was in his nineties. He had his own room, he had good meals and he was surrounded by people that he knew. I visited him often and he was much better off living there than living with my uncle who was gone most of the time and not always sober when he was home.

[ScottinCrimea]

WmGO, You have been trying for months to find an argument where you think you have the intellectual, moral and experiencial ground to hold the upper hand and in every case so far you have failed.  You take an extreme position and then try to defend it with all you've got, accepting no middle ground.  This isn't the nature of a true scholar.

I see, again, when called on some points you make that you can not adequately defend, you make excuses. "Because I chose not to",  "Your making assumptions", "That part of my post was poorly written and too short to understand", etc.

I will ask you now, as Gator asked you before, please identify the wrong assumptions that we have made so we can perhaps discuss your true thoughts, ideas and actions.  It's a weak game to intentially leave important points vague just to give yourself the out of "You're making wrong assumptions".  Our assumptions are only as good as the information you give us, so if we're wrong, blame it on your inconsistencies and selective sharing of information that might clear things up but also might weaken your argument.  I would love to have a truly objective discussion on this topic as I think it is an important one, but making an extreme statement and then dismissing any disagreement by not responding in a clear manner but instead playing the assumptions card without defining the assumptions just won't do it.

As far as your credentials, I agree they are above many here, but in many ways less as well.  I place the least value on the academic credentials, especially with the indepth discussion of the true Russian nature you have tried to present.  I have seen too many academic studies and conclusions that have missed the mark for various reasons, one of which is to gain the approval or acceptance of other academics.  I also question any "academic" who paints such a one sided picture rather than presenting a balanced view so that both sides can be discussed equally.

You have dismissed the credentials I have gained by actually living in the country among the people but tout them yourself.  At best, by your own admission, you have spent 50 weeks in the FSU broken up into 10 visits over 8 years, so an average of about 6 weeks a year.  I really question whether this is enough time to truly know the people or if it is enough time to really enter the "inner circle" that people here talk about.  You talk of having met and spoken with "thousands" of FSU men and women.  So even if we define "thousands' as only two thousand, let's break it down ad see how it looks.  Assuming that you were in the FSU the maximum 50 weeks of the range that you gave, this would mean that you met and spoke with 400 a week, or about 60 a day and had such indepth conversations that you were able to gain their confidence and arrive at your conclusions.  When did you have time to see and study the country itself?  I have spent much more time than you in country but I am certain that, though I have met at least this many, I would never claim to have spent enough time talking to all but a relatively few enough to truly know their character.

I know that you will be totally inflexible in this discussion as you have consistently been in the past.  It's hard to open a closed mind, and this quote by you makes very clear how open you are to opposing views.  "Well, I do understand FSU and FSUW perfectly"  Would anyone else here even dare to make that claim?

I think one thing that is very interesting is how you can spend so much time in the FSU and draw certain conclusions and others can spend just as much time or more and draw much different ones.  Let me tell you what I have seen by being on the inner circle of my wife's family:  I've seen one case of adultery, that of my wife's ex-husband, and he's her ex for that very reason.  I've seen one case of estrangement, that of my wife's half sister, not for reasons of family disagreement, but due to agoraphobia on her part. Still, she has been married for over 20 years to a man who is also sober and faithful. I've seen a grandmother who survived the seige of Leningrad at age 17 with a sniper's bullet in her shoulder, married a military surgeon who was both sober and faithful.  When he died she devoted her life to raising her son alone, not as a kept woman. I see my MIL who was widowed young (natural causes, not suicide, alcoholism or murder) before marrying my FIL and they have been married and faithful to each other for nearly 40 years.  In no case was there pregnancy before marriage.  I challenge you to name one American family that can claim to be as scandal free as this.

I think much of the reason that different people draw different conclusions is that we each bring into an experience our own attitudes and pre-existing notions.  In essence, we are drawn to what we are and find what makes us feel most comfortable.  There is no such thing as the unbiased observer.  So what does this tell us about Gator?  About me? About you?

[ScottinCrimea]

This is EXACTLY the kind of intellectually weak and morally bankrupt *personal* attack I would have expected from you - and ALL based on your ignorant and incorrect *assumption*.  AND *consistent* with your modus operandi: substance of post ignored but quick with an immature  personal slight. You are weak. Very weak - mentally, intellectually and morally.

Note: I had not observed this personal slight before typing my preceding post.

WmGO, once again your self righteousness leaps out.  I am wrong to give a "personal slight" but you are perfectly justified in a series of outright insults, attacks and moral judgements.  Please explain to me how this is right.  I don't understand this type of thinking.

As far as the incorrect assumption, once AGAIN I ask you to tell us specifically what assumption was wrong.

[Misha]

I agree.  Observed the same.  Although it was my Moscow woman who took care of her dying grandmother, while her awful mother (grandmother's daughter) did nothing other than feed her on occasion (and then complain). This spoke volumes to me about the good heart of my Moscow woman. 

Gabaub,

What is the source of your opinion?

Some stats. I found an article published in The Journal of Adult Protection by Pavel Vasilvevich Puchkov: "Elder abuse:current research in the Russian Federation (2004-2006)."

Puchkov conducted a survey of 2,460 elderly women and 421 elderly men aged 60+ in the Saratov oblast of Russia. The respondents had to fill in questionnaires and they were asked if they experienced abuse. Here is what the researcher discovered:

• The total number of respondents subjected to abuse was 825 (28.64%), and 642 (22.28%) witnessed abuse;
• The most abused groups were women, aged between 70–79;
• Main reasons for abuse cited were alcoholism (22.9%),poor upbringing and education (18.95%), society (12.75%), the complicated socio-economic situation in the country (18.29%),  and drug misuse (11.28%);
• The most common form of abuse was emotional-psychological abuse but other types of abuse included physical abuse, neglect and financial and economic abuse;
• The abusers were usually family, friends and neighbours: children – 282 (27.83%), other relatives – 121 (11.95%), grandchildren – 84 (8. 3%), spouse – 72 (7,10%), and friends or neighbors – 241 (23.8%);

What can we conclude? In this survey, we see that roughly 1 in 3 elderly Russians who took part in the survey considered that they were mistreated and in the abuser was usually a friend or relative. It could be worse, but if the survey is an indicator of life in Russia, a lot of elderly Russians are being abused by those in their inner circle.

[Gator]

Gaubaub,

Thank you for presenting scientific, independent data rather than personal opinions.

The care of the elderly in Russia is a near tragedy with the diminution of pensions to sub-poverty levels.  Yet the elderly's children, already facing a difficult life, will somehow find some way to help.  I am certain that there are exceptions.  BTW, many of the elderly in America will also claim abuse in the form of neglect.

The relationship a RW has with her parents is a good indicator of her true character.  Experienced men have always advised newbies to observe how their RW treat others, particularly service people such as waitresses and sales clerks.

To agree with WmGO, I have seen many RW with a cold heart based on how they treat others; however, that does not mean a man needs to keep dating them.   regardless of how

[BillyB]

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. That's why it's so important to meet and observe a lady's family. Of course in a good family there could be rotten eggs and in a bad family, a few decent people but for the most part genes are similar.

A truck driver, who works for me, has a brother and they are hard working people but they have two other brothers from a different father and those two brothers spent over half their adult life in jail for crimes of theft, drugs, and rape. They have a different set of genes than the truck driver. The truck driver's step father was abusive and violent to him, his brothers and his mom until the day his mom shot him 6 times at close range to end it. That cost her a year in prison.

As far as FSU people go, two of my most trusted employees are Ukrainian. But it's a fact FSU people are going to court, in my area, more than the average citizen due to them breaking the laws at a higher rate. Mostly it's the younger generation getting in trouble.

A lot of times I hear on the forum a RW that lives in America say she tries to avoid the Russian community in the States because they'll probably be causing more trouble in her life than not. But one time a RW said she associates with good Russian people here and has not trouble.

I was married to an Ukrainian woman. There was certainly a mix of good and bad in her family but not very bad.

[Mir]

WmGo

Yes writers do reflect on what they see around them. So they write about the good and the bad that they see. If one wants to read literature of a nation with a prefixed idea that this is a corrupt nation then one will find evidence there, this is true for any literature, from anywhere.
I consider myself to be fairly well read when it comes to Russian literature and I don't think that the ills of the society portrayed by Russian writers are any different or any more then from any other society in a similar stage of evolution.

[Lily]

I am impressed with experience of WmGO of studying my country. I am even more impressed with how much interest and efforts he has put in this study. It is pity that I cannot count WmGO among my friends.

Well, there are bad people everywhere, and the more one studies them, the more he or she discovers. Probably there are too many bad people..or as some say, sh@t swims on the surface... Apologies. No wonder WmGO has seen many spieces like that.

It is sad for me to read observation that the pursuit of RW by WM is more about separating the man from his money ..  That would mean, each of us may be perceived to show such behavior.

On the other side, many men can say a lot of good things on FSUW and their environment. Similar is attracted to similar, so those men managed to get to know people like themselves. Also no wonder that they eventually found what they look for. They have not studied Russia that extensively, so they apparently talk on their own positive experience.

What I definitely agree with WmGO are the damaging circumstances in the FSU. That may lead to conclusion that the average Russian bears more negativities than an average Western person. This is also probably the reason why one could easily spot a Russian person in the West...by the manner they look, move, communicate. Too bad.

The good thing about it is - in particular for me as a RW - that I am aware of this damaging impact of circumstances. By the way, I discovered this for me a few years ago. Therefore I should defend my personality against this, and try to develop my personality in direction that is desirable for me. This is feasible. So in order to keep up, I have to put some efforts. Hope I am succeeding in this...

[vwrw]

From WmGO:{ for anyone who thinks my observing and noting negative qualities about FSU or FSUW is just about tooting America's horn and/or some kind of cultural or national superiority I would refer them to my comments about my own country America in the "What is wrong with America" and related threads}

vwrw: And what? Having negative assumptions about most people you have ever met in both countries is NOT equal to having valid assumptions.

You make impression of being a very biased observer which selects something bad from a person’s speech and after exaggerate the information to make it to seem worse.
For example; I assumed that all FSUW have some character problems basing on my belief there are not perfect people in the world. You exaggerated the information to “the FSUW themselves are pointing out the sad reality that many if not most FSUW have A LOT OF SERIOUS character flaws/issues/problems”

Here is one of my favorite stories I have ever read on RWD
************************************************

An old farmer was plowing his field.  A U-Haul pulled over and the driver summoned the farmer over. 

"I'm looking for a good place to live.  How is this place?" said the stranger.

"Well, how was the place you moved from?" asked the old farmer. 

"Terrible!" said the stranger.  "The people were not friendly at all."

"Well," said the old farmer. "You'll find the people here just the same."

So the stranger drove on...

The next week another U-Haul pulled over, and the same conversation ensued.  And that driver drove on, too.

Then next week a third U-Haul came by, and once again, he summoned the old farmer over.

"I'm looking for a good place to live.  How is this place?" said the stranger.

"Well, how was the place you moved from?" asked the old farmer.

"Great!" said the stranger.  "The people there were friendly like you, and the salt of the earth."

"Well," said the old farmer. "You'll find the people here just the same."

So the stranger bought the adjoining farm, and lived there, happy ever after...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Mir]

WmGO

Well, I do understand FSU and FSUW perfectly

Winston Churchilll

Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

 

[vwrw]

From BillyB: A lot of times I hear on the forum a RW that lives in America say she tries to avoid the Russian community in the States because they'll probably be causing more trouble in her life than not.

vwrw: Billy, the part of your sentence which are written after word “because” - is your assumption or explanation given by those FSUW? Is there any other explanation why some FSUW tries to avoid the Russian community in the States?

I ask you because I am one of the FSUW who will try to avoid communication with FSUPoeple for at least three first years. Why? Because, I do not want to be a Russian in America… My goal number one is learning and absorbing American culture and their mentality and to fulfill this goal I must communicate with American people daily. Only when it will be very rare that I am recognized as an immigrant, I will afford the luxury of spending my free time communicating with FSUPoeple.

I am sure I am not alone (among FSUW living abroad) reluctant to be perceived as an immigrant in country in which I (they) gonna live all their rest life.

Far NOT always people doing the same thing, do it due to similar motivation.  And I get a little irritated when such a person like the WmGO (who stop their scrutiny of a observation after he have found the first negative explanation to observed phenomena) says that Gator’s comments regarding FSUW are invalid only because the comments are opposing to those ones WmGO has.    

[Mir]

ask you because I am one of the FSUW who will try to avoid communication with FSUPoeple for at least three first years. Why? Because, I do not want to be a Russian in America

No mater what you do you will always be a Russian in America, a person can change everything about his/her life except the country he/she was born in and the parents he/she was born to.

[Blues Fairy]

That part of my  "thought provoking" comments (as I am now referring to it) was
poorly written and too short to understand. Here is what I meant: writers in any country  are often more than any single thing commentators on their own country's people, culture and society etc.  This is especially true of the great Russian writers

WmGO, if you are indeed so well-versed in literature, you surely know that writers do not simply record the reality as it is - they exaggerate social vices to make them more conspicuous, by using various language tools such as hyperbola and grotesque, exactly to provoke their readers' thought.  Your thought was apparently provoked to an extent that you generalized the grotesque to the entire Russian nation.  Tsk, tsk.  Reading is a complex cognitive process, WmGO, that ought to include some thinking occasionally.

Some stats.
What can we conclude? In this survey, we see that roughly 1 in 3 elderly Russians who took part in the survey considered that they were mistreated and in the abuser was usually a friend or relative.

No surprise.  What cantankerous babushka would not use the opportunity to say that children mistreat her and neglect her and abuse her whereas she had spent all her life working for their good, denied herself everything, and these ungrateful creatures only think about themselves.  And the Soviet government took care of old people and now, look what these damn Democrats have done to the country... blah-blah-blah.  

I heard that many times, my own grandfather is exactly like that - though he was in no way abused at any point in his long life.  

[vwrw]

No mater what you do you will always be a Russian in America, a person can change everything about his/her life except the country he/she was born in and the parents he/she was born to.

Yes, Mir you are right and I expressed my thought a little not pointedly. I implied I want to integrate in American culture as much as possible. Although, I do admire Western People a little more than FSUpeople I do NOT consider that Western society is neither better nor worse than FSU society….simply the Western society is different and more complies with my preferences.