Character Problems with RM and RW

[Bruce]

"I ask you because I am one of the FSUW who will try to avoid communication with FSUPoeple for at least three first years. Why? Because, I do not want to be a Russian in America… My goal number one is learning and absorbing American culture and their mentality and to fulfill this goal I must communicate with American people daily. Only when it will be very rare that I am recognized as an immigrant, I will afford the luxury of spending my free time communicating with FSUPoeple."

VWRW, it will probably take you a lot longer than three years.  I think the best one insight besides living here my wife got was from her Intro to Sociology Course at the local community college here in the USA.

I still believe all of the AW like Jen who come to this forum from academia are clearly up to no good.  Jen, nothing will change your mind.  You will write what your preconceived notions are no matter what the actual reality is.

[Mir]

WmGO

You have mentioned Shevchenko, the fact is that his works are full of extremely positive things, he talks of hope and beauty despite the hard life he had.
As another Ukrainian writer Ivan Franko comments about him
‘Fate pursued him cruelly throughout life, yet could not turn
the pure gold of his soul to rust, his love of humanity to hatred,
or his trust in God to despair.
Fate spared him no suffering, but did not stint with pleasures,
which welled up from a healthy spring of life.’

Some examples that may be relevant to this forum, and are certainly applicable to any society in the world :


Don't Wed

Don't wed a wealthy woman, friend,
She'll drive you from the house.
Don't wed a poor one either, friend,
Dull care will be your spouse.
Get hitched to carefree Cossack life
And share a Cossack fate:
If it be rags, let it be rags --
What comes, that's what you take.
Then you'll have nobody to nag
Or try to cheer you up,
To fuss and fret and question you
What ails you and what's up.
When two misfortune share, they say,
It's easier to weep.
Not so: it's easier to cry
When no-one's there to see.

Don't Envy

Don't envy, friend, a wealthy man:
A rich man's life is spent
Without a friend or faithful love --
Those things he has to rent.
Don't envy, friend, a man of rank,
His power's based on force.
Don't envy, too, a famous man:
The man of note well knows
The crowd's acclaim is not for him,
But for that thorny fame
He wrought with labour and with tears
So they'd be entertained.
But then, when young folk gather 'round,
So fine they are and fair
You'd think it's heaven, -- ah, but look:
See evil stirring there ...
Don't envy anyone my friend,
For if you look you'll find
That there's no heaven on the earth,
No more than in the sky.

Bruce

Who is Jen?

[Turboguy]

When VWRW and I discussed this long ago I think she worded it very slightly differently and in a way that I think is quite a good goal.   Her words to me before were that she wants to be an American from Russia and not a Russian living in America.   I have seen a few people who have so totally lost their accent and mastered English that you would not know they were Russian if they did not tell you.  Some of these had only been here a few years.  VWRW is about the most determined and motivated person I have met and I would consider her goal achievable but challenging.

I have also seen people who have been in this country for a decade and can not speak English at all and I think those who spend much of their free time with friends from the homeland and watching Russian TV and speaking Russian are going to progress slower than someone who tries to immerse themselves in their new country and make friends who speak English.

[catzenmouse]

2. I have been to Russia and Ukraine ten times in the past 8 years each time for 3 to 5 weeks (right now as folks read this they are making assumptions......).

 In the above quote are you not making an "assumption" as well?

 While I often do not agree (or at least feel the same way that you appear to) with your posts they are interesting reading albeit quite often with an ingrained negativity that you seem to carry as a badge of honor.

Ken

[groovlstk]

Wow, this thread has really sparked some good debate, I find it one of the most interesting on RWD in a long time and I hope it will be devoid of the sort of backbiting that has marked other threads recently.

I'll play devil's advocate, again:

One thing I've noticed here over the years is the countless posts from western guys explaining the plight of Russian men. We're at great pains to explain that western men are not superior to RM but may preferable as husbands. WM are more stable, faithful, unburdened by the crushing cynicism that plagues RM. We're told RM are often alcoholics, they cheat on their wives/gfs, they dress poorly, they smoke like chimneys, they have an average life expectancy of 59 due to abusing their bodies, they're disrespectful to women, they have no ambition. It's widely accepted that this behavior came about because of the sudden void created by the collapse of the Soviet state and the economic desperation of life in the 1990s.

OK fine, I'll buy it. I think such claims are more than heavily exaggerated but I've seen enough of Russia/Ukraine to know that there is a grain of truth to this.

However, I've never seen anyone discuss how the same desperate conditions effected the character of RW. We're quick to put a positive spin on it and point out that hard times in the 90s made RW stronger and independent, that they managed to hold family units and indeed entire communities together with little help from RM. I'm no sociologist, but to say that the same hardships that reduced RM to such lows didn't fundamentally change RW outside of making them more independent sounds like a whitewashing. RM and RW are products of their environment, the good as well as the bad, I think it's dangerous to suppose that one gender was laid low while the other tiptoed through it all and emerged innocent and optimistic with a simple desire for a better life, as most RW-seekers seem eager to believe.

Another related issue I often see here are claims that RM are serial adulterers. Again, I won't dispute this, but to suggest they are in any way worse than RW is simply wrong and another episode of hopeful and naive WM "whistling past the graveyard." I know plenty of good, faithful RM who are married to women who cheat like crazy; you can argue that the men bought this behaviour about, but it's sort of like debating whether the chicken or the egg came first.

Anyway, I still believe that, like anywhere else in this world, finding a truly good RW is difficult, finding a truly good RW whom you can truly love is more difficult, and of course: the Trifecta is finding a truly good RW whom you truly love and who truly loves you. That is, well, truly damn difficult.

[BillyB]

vwrw: Billy, the part of your sentence which are written after word “because” - is your assumption or explanation given by those FSUW? Is there any other explanation why some FSUW tries to avoid the Russian community in the States?

Some RW in America are turned off by other RW, who are blunt and rude, who gossip, or talk bad about her husband and theirs and talk about upgrading and telling other RW they can do better too. Some Russians don't seem to like when others are happy or have it better than themselves, they are like crabs in a barrel, when one crab wants to get out, the other crabs drag it back in. Some RW want to avoid the married RM too who may openly flirt with them.

VWRW, use your imagination and think about  the unpleasant things you see in Russian culture, pertaining to how people act, that you would want to avoid here and those could be the same reasons other RW would just avoid the Russian community in America.

Being around the Ukrainian community here, I have heard of some adultery and other problems in some families. Although the men in my ex's family didn't drink much, she has told me back in Ukraine, in the men's younger days, many would get drunk and not come home to wife and family. Maybe they cheated on their wives, maybe not. Why do they not drink now? Maybe they found God, maybe they matured, maybe they want a change in their life and being in America is it and they want to live the present and not look back and relive the past.

Most FSU people in my area,  Seattle and surrounding cities, are Christians and go to church. I suspect the Russians in New York are different and have possibly learned the rude manners New Yorkers are famous for. I'm sure some Russian communities will be different than others and RW here may have pleasant and unpleasant experiences within them.

[Simoni]

Anyway, I still believe that, like anywhere else in this world, finding a truly good RW is difficult, finding a truly good RW whom you can truly love is more difficult, and of course: the Trifecta is finding a truly good RW whom you truly love and who truly loves you. That is, well, truly damn difficult.

The key words are "like anywhere else in this world."

Yes, it is more difficult in the FSU. But it's not because fsu girls have "poor character."   Rather, it's the cultural and language differences.

Once you find her, you'll see that her loyalty and love are among the greatest of anywhere in the world, IMHO.

[Simoni]

Some RW in America are turned off by other RW, who are blunt and rude, who gossip, or talk bad about her husband and theirs and talk about upgrading and telling other RW they can do better too. Some Russians don't seem to like when others are happy or have it better than themselves, they are like crabs in a barrel, when one crab wants to get out, the other crabs drag it back in.

Very true.  Just happened to us last week...and I wrote about it in my blog.  http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?ind=blog&op=home&idu=2105

[groovlstk]

I suspect the Russians in New York are different and have possibly learned the rude manners

Having experienced the crush of the metro in SPB, Moscow, and Kiev at rush hour, I don't think such behavior is learned.

My wife recently spent a week in Moscow, and she now admits to preferring Americans--even with their "false" smiles and ridiculous small-talk--over rude Russians.

[Simoni]

she now admits to preferring Americans--even with their "false" smiles and ridiculous small-talk--over rude Russians.

That's one arguement we still have, and we are in our second year here.   I've tried and tried to say to her that when I smile at people I am glad to see them and happy.  And then when I say "how's it going" I really mean it.  But she's not buying it     LOL

Newbies-- that is just one of dozens of complaints you are gong to be hearing about America 

[ScottinCrimea]

There is no doubt that the difficult conditions people had to endure under the Soviet system and in the aftermath of its collapse had an effect on them.  There were both positive and negative effects and to dwell on only one or the other is a mistake.  I don't think the amount of positive versus the negative has been consistent over all involved.  Each individual acquired their own portion of both.  Thus I believe some people have emerged better for the experience and some worse.  I'm not going to attempt to claim as some here have that "many if not most" of FSUW have become more evil because of this.  I'm not sure anyone can make a blanket statement as the geography, population, family situation and other variables are just too large to fit them all into one box.  In my own experience, I have seen many of the traits that WmGO cited to greater and lesser degrees in many FSUW, but I have also witnessed those positive traits that he failed to mention, such as the pride, independence, inner strength, commitment to family, etc. that have been produced.  To debate one without the other does not give a true reflection of the Russian character.

We can also claim that conditions in the US have produced both positive and negative qualities in AW.  These negative qualities have certainly been cited here repeatedly.  What seems to be the constant among members, though, is that, weighing the positives and negatives of AW vs FSUW, we prefer the FSUW.

[KenC]

Wow, this thread has really sparked some good debate, I find it one of the most interesting on RWD in a long time and I hope it will be devoid of the sort of backbiting that has marked other threads recently.

I'll play devil's advocate, again:

One thing I've noticed here over the years is the countless posts from western guys explaining the plight of Russian men. We're at great pains to explain that western men are not superior to RM but may preferable as husbands. WM are more stable, faithful, unburdened by the crushing cynicism that plagues RM. We're told RM are often alcoholics, they cheat on their wives/gfs, they dress poorly, they smoke like chimneys, they have an average life expectancy of 59 due to abusing their bodies, they're disrespectful to women, they have no ambition. It's widely accepted that this behavior came about because of the sudden void created by the collapse of the Soviet state and the economic desperation of life in the 1990s.

OK fine, I'll buy it. I think such claims are more than heavily exaggerated but I've seen enough of Russia/Ukraine to know that there is a grain of truth to this.

However, I've never seen anyone discuss how the same desperate conditions effected the character of RW. We're quick to put a positive spin on it and point out that hard times in the 90s made RW stronger and independent, that they managed to hold family units and indeed entire communities together with little help from RM. I'm no sociologist, but to say that the same hardships that reduced RM to such lows didn't fundamentally change RW outside of making them more independent sounds like a whitewashing. RM and RW are products of their environment, the good as well as the bad, I think it's dangerous to suppose that one gender was laid low while the other tiptoed through it all and emerged innocent and optimistic with a simple desire for a better life, as most RW-seekers seem eager to believe.

Another related issue I often see here are claims that RM are serial adulterers. Again, I won't dispute this, but to suggest they are in any way worse than RW is simply wrong and another episode of hopeful and naive WM "whistling past the graveyard." I know plenty of good, faithful RM who are married to women who cheat like crazy; you can argue that the men bought this behaviour about, but it's sort of like debating whether the chicken or the egg came first.

Anyway, I still believe that, like anywhere else in this world, finding a truly good RW is difficult, finding a truly good RW whom you can truly love is more difficult, and of course: the Trifecta is finding a truly good RW whom you truly love and who truly loves you. That is, well, truly damn difficult.

groovlstk,
Lena's negativity is one of the things that has driven me crazy over the last 8 years.  It has seemed have to gotten better over time, but for a long while it was a total downer. I am a naturally optimistic person and at times her pessimistic attitude was a bit frustrating to me.  It is easy for me to see where it all originated from as I have become more familiar with Lena's family.  It is as though they are afraid to be optimistic for fear of disappointment.  They assume the worst will happen and if by chance the best does transpire, they would be pleasantly surprised.

Lena's core family is a rather faithful bunch when it comes to adultery.  Her Mom and Dad are still together and only one set of grandparents were divorced.  So Lena's moral standing on adultery is rather high.  It still took her many years to over come the thought that was drummed into her mind that "all men cheat."  I am happy to say that today her trust in me is as high as mine in her.

Over the years together Lena and I have become acquainted with many fsuw.  I dare say that the incidence of unfaithfulness among them is very high.  They seem to have a very low priority on being faithful to their partners and manipulation of men through sex is very common.  We have witnessed it in fsuw married to Americans, married to fellow Russians, and even in single women.  There just does not seem to be a high value put on faithfulness and the casual attitude toward adultery is amazing.  The relationships themselves also seem to be more of convenience and less for true love.
KenC

[mspanky]

 Ken,

 You bring about a great point and one which many peopel hate to talk about. Adultary!!!The men are all guilty of commiting it, but the RW,UK are not? Who the men are cheating with I have no idea. I think it's highly acceptable for both to cheat.

 I know a guy who had an affair with a UW for a year or so.  Thing is she admits she married her American husband for security and even with the affair she had no plans to leave him. Talking about eventually having a child. Well, she took on another lover and no longer interested in the guy I knopw. He's puzzled as to what happened. She gave no answers.

    But now since all gloves are off he has shown some pics she allowed him to take during the affair . They are shocking. Noone should allow anyone to take pics like that ,let alone a married woman. It boggles my mind at her blatant risk with those pics. If they ever got to her husband it would be over! But even worse,she would have her UW friends meet the guy she first had an affair with for coffee or lunch, like they were on a real date. He met 3 of her "friends". I don't think even 1 thought to tell her husband. This situation strikes me as very odd.

  The ironic thing is, she seems to have grown up in a normal family. Parents still together,she loves them and speaks of them highly. It seems her family had a bit more money than the norm and she has travelled all through Europe with them on vacation. It makes me wonder what the hell goes on in someone's head when they act so blase about an affair. I don't think this trait is common with UW. But I do know when I was engaged years back, I found out my girl was having an affair in the very same way FSURookie did. By coincidence with another member on a message board. That coincidence saved me from making a huge mistake.

[Gator]

Groovlstk,

It is an interesting thread, and it has been sparked by WmGO’s sweeping conclusions.  

In agreement with WmGO and you, FSUW come from a culture and a difficult economic situation much different than America.   For sure it has fomented survivor behavior such as deceit, sponsorship, etc.   This is WmGO’s point and it is valid and should be read as a counter to agency hype.  However, that does not mean all women seeking to marry a foreigner are this way, much less treacherous.

When reading WmGO’s post, one is left with the feeling that all FSUW should be avoided like a plague.   Instead, his post should have added that because of a FSUW's background, a man needs to take enough time to know his particular woman.

To continue with my rosy outlook, I contend that while a Russian woman may be tainted by her past, she is not necessarily imprinted.  My Moscow woman abhors the cultural faults of Russian life.   She aspires to leave her past, adopt the ways of her new country, and rid herself of any taint.  The same as VWRW, she has no intentions of living like a Russian.  She has been to America and she considers our stability, opportunity, integrity, social easiness, leisure activities and weather as huge improvements over Russian life.  It is not about just love and money.

From my experience I do not think she is a small island in a sea of treacherous women.  I must admit that while I did get to know 15 RW/UW well enough to learn their story in-depth, I wonder how much of it would have changed if I had spoken to their ex-husbands.  These women are not sweet angels.  All of them are strong on the inside, a quality that I relish.

[Gator]

Mir wrote,

WmGO

Well, I do understand FSU and FSUW perfectly

Winston Churchilll

Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

Mir, a classic.  I enjoy your economy of words.  And to think that WmGO accused RW of self-aggrandizing.
 

[KenC]

mspanky,
In all fairness, others brought up the subject.  You wrote:

I don't think this trait is common with UW.

I don't know if I agree with that statement.  From the fsuw we have met here, I would venture to state that more than 50% openly showed a casual attitude toward unfaithfulness.
KenC

[LiveFromUkraine]

mspanky,
In all fairness, others brought up the subject.  You wrote:I don't know if I agree with that statement.  From the fsuw we have met here, I would venture to state that more than 50% openly showed a casual attitude toward unfaithfulness.
KenC

Interesting post Ken.  Why do you think those women married their current husbands?  Love, stability, financial? 


Thomas

[KenC]

Gator,

These women are not sweet angels.  All of them are strong on the inside, a quality that I relish.

Be careful what you wish for as it may come true

I do enjoy Lena's strength, most of the time,but it can wear on you over time too!

As to our discussion regarding fsuw having a more casual outlook toward adultery, how much does America's Puritanical ties effect the difference in perception?
KenC

[mspanky]

mspanky,
In all fairness, others brought up the subject.  You wrote:I don't know if I agree with that statement.  From the fsuw we have met here, I would venture to state that more than 50% openly showed a casual attitude toward unfaithfulness.
KenC

  Well, I did think it odd this UW would introduce her friends to her lover. I think AM and AW are more prone to hiding . Perhaps trying a bit to leave a little integrity to the spouse and not have all his friends knowing what is going on behind his back. Even though they are being  disrespectful .Her whole casual attitude towards her affair  and her friends always made me wonder what the hell was going on?. Meanwhile the guy I know had nothing but praise for her saying what a sweet woman she was. Just very weird overall.

[Gator]

Adultery was earlier in the thread on pages 4 and 5(?), mostly about cheating by "desirable" RM.  VWRW had some good comments.  

In a society where women reluctantly accept cheating by their husbands (and in fact assume that it happens), one can be sure that what is good for the gander is good for the goose.

My Moscow woman has a married friend who considered starting an affair a few years ago.  She had a meeting with the man at a coffee shop.  However, he was so cheap that he did not buy her cake with her coffee, so he never got to first base.   She has been faithful ever since even though I doubt sex is ideal considering that he is diabetic.  

[KenC]

Interesting post Ken.  Why do you think those women married their current husbands?  Love, stability, financial? 


Thomas

Thomas,
Most were married to get into the country.  Even the gal married to a fellow Russian was a marriage in order for them both to emmigrate here.  But I have to say that even the single fsuw have no problem in using sex to get what hey want.  Not all of course, but more than 50%.
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

I have to agree I have seen a more casual attitude toward adultery in the FSU.  This recent article in Pravda seems to support this observation:

"Adultery is rather a social problem than a moral issue in Russia. According to the 1998 opinion poll, almost 40% of the Russians believed that an act of adultery was either “never a mistake” or “sometimes a mistake,” compared to 6% of the Americans who shared the viewpoint. Moscow psychologists say that an affair appears rather inevitable for those Russians who have to share their two-room apartments with in-laws. The number of Russians living in such deplorable conditions is high.

No nationwide survey of sexual practices has ever been conducted in Russia. However, the 1996 opinion poll found out that more than a half of Russian males and a quarter of women had admitted to cheating on their spouses."

Are we making the wrong assumption that it is more prevalent then most places just because it is more apparent?  Probably not, as the admitted rate of adultery is higher in Russia than in the US, though I think not as high as most people assume.  In a  study of over 10,000 Americans, 22% of married men and 15% of married women admitted to having cheated on their spouses and nearly half admitted to having been unfaithful to a partner at some point in their lives.

So with the Westernization of the FSU will the rate go up or down?

[LiveFromUkraine]

Thomas,
Most were married to get into the country.  Even the gal married to a fellow Russian was a marriage in order for them both to emmigrate here.  But I have to say that even the single fsuw have no problem in using sex to get what hey want.  Not all of course, but more than 50%.
KenC

That is unfortunate and I am sure part of the problem.  I have noticed a more acceptance about cheating here.  I think part of the problem is that women will have a harder time raising a child here without the husband.  So the husband can get away with things easier here.  People seem to get paid under the table a lot here which kills the child support a woman would receive.  From my experiences here, women will tolerate the cheating much more than an AW would.  Of course this is just from my experiences from talking to people here.  



Thomas

[groovlstk]

In a society where women reluctantly accept cheating by their husbands (and in fact assume that it happens), one can be sure that what is good for the gander is good for the goose.

Gator, it's convenient to think a few/some/many (pick your level of cynicism RW cheat as a reaction to men's behavior because then it's in turn easy to conclude that if you remove a RW from that environment and demonstrate faithfulness to her, her impetus to cheat will be removed. In my experience this penchant for adultery runs much deeper and many RW cheat as free agents. Whether they're looking for financial gain, excitement in an otherwise drab life, or simple pleasure, I see it as something that grew out of the desperate economic conditions of the 90s. I believe hardship and need to survive cultivated an instinct to connive and manipulate men, one that AM in particular are woefully underequipped to recognize. Heck, I see so much rationalizing here when it comes to cheating -- just look at FSURookie's thread; almost all the people who advised him immediately chalked up his fiancee's behavior to her young age. The alternative explanation, that she was/is at heart a conniving opportunist who manipulated FSURookie with the full support of her family and friends and will do it again in a heartbeat to the next idealistic foreigner who comes along, is a lot harder to swallow.

I don't like wearing the pessimist's mantle but I believe new guys need to see both ends of the spectrum.

Ken,

I've observed much of the same but before I got married my experience was limited to people living in the FSU and RW who came to the US on on the backs of American mules. It was easy to rationalize their cheating since they probably didn't love their husbands. Yet since my wife arrived, we've met a number of RM/RW couples and some of the women are shockingly candid with my wife about their extramarital affairs. It came as a surprise to me as most RM I know are, to put it nicely, very careful when it comes to women; just goes to show AM are not the only gullible ones out there.

It's become fairly common in the hours after we meet Russian friends in our area that my wife will give me a big bearhug afterwards and say how lucky we are that we truly love each other and aren't using each other in the manner that so many couples we've met are.

On a related note, I'm happy to say that the strongest and most loving relationships we've seen among RW/AM were between couples we met from RWD.

[ScottinCrimea]

My Ukrainian wife has no tolerance for cheating and divorced her first husband over this, even though she had a small child.  because of her belief that "all men cheat". She had no intentions of remarrying before I came along.  any suspicion of me straying and I would be out the door, and rightly so.  I share the same feelings as her on this.  Interestingly enough, I got a different point of view from an older couple that were in one of my English classes.  They had a very loving marriage, one of the best I have ever seen.  At one point the topic came up over whether he would leave his wife if he caught her cheating.  He took a long pause and then answered, "You know, when you marry someone, it is a lifelong commitment for better or for worse.  I know there will be times in our life when we are having problems and this may be one of the results of that.  We must have the love and belief in each other to forgive and to work through these problems.

This is certainly the opposite of the attitude of disposable marriages that we commonly see today and something to reflect on.