Emotion

[ironcat]

He fellas, Happy Sunday AM to you and thanks to all of the great advice from you all, too bad we couldn't get  together and have a few Cold Coronas and yak in person.  Anyway, I called Tanya tonight as usual, and this time, I was determined to speak more than the usual 3 sentences . I downloaded some new phrases in Russian, practiced them and they essentially said- " I believe in you" and "I want us to be together always" and" you are not alone any more". I told her this and damned if she didn't start bawling over the phone. I can spot ( having been a sales pro all my life) a phone bs'er, but this took the cake. I was, putting it mildy very touched. Now I'm not sure if she cried at the content of the words, how I said it, or the mere fact that I tried ( and probably screwed it up)- AGAIN to speak more Russian to her- or all three , but it completley caught me off surprise. We usually yuk it up and laugh a bit but this was new to  me.What do you guys think?

[bgreed]

Ironcat one thing you will find about these women is that initially they can seem to be maybe a little cold.  But when you have touched their heart ther is a whole bunch of deep and strong emotions there much beyond any in my experience with western women. (now maybe I just never found the right one) But I can tell you this that Lena and I wrote for eight months before I made my trip to meet her life was just a bit crazy and a time and money window just wasn't opening.  Even with this long delay we both knew that we were right for eachother even before we met.  And that first meeting, well lets just say there were fireworks on both sides and it was like we had known eachother forever.  When it was time for me to leave there were two people at the airport that were glued together and we literally had to pry ourselves apart before I missed my plane.  You may have struck a nerve about what she has been feeling because tears are not something most of these women let show to someone that they don't have feelings for.

[Mir]

I hope the meanings did not get muddled in the delivery, so she might understand something like:'I don't like you anymore and you have a fat bottom' will make any woman cry. Or she may be crying at the murder of her beloved language (just kidding).

Seriously it is a rather unusual reaction, but possible if she has strong feelings for you.

[Gator]

Ironcat,

I do not know how long you have been corresponding with this woman, or what you have said or implied before; however, these new statements to her contradict your feelings expressed in your threads.  Many of these women do feel alone in facing a difficult life, so it is a strong statement to tell a woman that she is "not alone" and you want to be "together always."  These are expressions more in line in asking her to marry you.  Are you misleading her? 

Even so, her reaction seems over the top unless she was already having a really bad day.  My experience is that almost all RW/UW approach initial meetings enthusiastically but with aplomb.  If indeed they do have strong feelings, they withhold them because they consider it bad luck to count their chickens before they hatch.

For sure you have developed a relationship before the meeting.  Yet you have expressed some misgivings in other posts.  If you have a conscience, it will make it even more difficult for you to leave her if you discover that you do not like her. 

Hope it all works out.  I suggest that a little restraint is needed.  When do you meet?

[Mishenka]

Iron cat, You are doing great!

I have had the same experience with my Tatiana.  when I speak in my "broken" Russian to her and say things like Moya Milaya dorogaya and Ya lublu tebja ochen silno, or lubimaya dorogaya, she melts in my arms with the biggest hug and kiss.  Then again, she is impress also by small things, like serving her coffee with the right amount of cream and sugar.  She always has the biggest smile on her face! Likewise when she talks to me in her sometimes broken English, it melts my heart.  Just the fact that you tried to learn and speak to her in her native language has impressed her , then what you said brought the tears,, much like we are impressed that they want to learn English,, which most will say is the hardest language to learn.  Russian is much more simple and once you know how to write it and pronounce the alphabet, vowels and consonants then you will find it easy to speak. But it takes time. Be patient and learn from them personally. 

Michael

[Mir]

Russian is much more simple and once you know how to write it and pronounce the alphabet, vowels and consonants then you will find it easy to speak.

That is an understatement

[ironcat]

Despite my best intentions and attempts to be flippant- yes , I have developed a lot of feelings for her, and this is just over a few months.I believe she has for me, but as my previous post said, who knows- I am probably no different that a lot of you , and I am not ashamed to admit it that I am suffering from the disease known as loneliness. And yes, I am not shy to admit that if we couldn't develop a relationship I would be pretty hurt, but its a gamble for both of us. I  know that a lot of you have urged me to try and hunt down someone from the Agency, but after all of this time and emotion for both of us, if things don't work out, I may be very tempted to just get the hell out.

You know,  I look at myself and I see a fit, decent looking guy with little baggage and no  bad habits. I own 2 businesses and am doing ok financially, but by no means a Daddy Warbucks type.  But.... I'm sick of spending most weekends ( the ones that I don't have the kids) alone. I refuse to hit the bar scene and try my luck with the middle age bags out here in Chicago. I tried, believe me I tried the singles scene( match.com etc) here and no luck, just a bunch of ...well- AW's. I did try this RW thing once before, way back in 1994. Before the Internet, before discussion groups like this where we as brothers could collaboratively hash out issues and try to help each other. I went on one of these junkets with European Connections to Moscow, and what a damn disaster. No web sites of value then but I had nothing but a glossy magazine with some of the most beautiful women I had ever seen. Well, I went, and got some battle experience for sure. I didn't really find one then, but I learned a lot of valuable lessons. I guess I can call them :Nuggets of Wisdom from the Ironcat , and yes they closely parallel the 10 commandments and the anti-scam score sheet.

Nugget #1- Age is an issue- in the extreme. I saw some guys on the 1994 trip pick out women  ( or shall I say GIRLS) 25 years younger than them. Yeah,they all got some action , but fully 100% of them , even after they got the K-1 approved, sent their gal home before the 90 days. The ones that married, got dumped.Tanya is only 12 years younger, which to me is better because she is past the "  Lets go to a disco 3 nights a week" crap. I wish like hell I met her in 1994, we may still be together.

Nugget#2 - Extraordinarily Beautiful women are like cars- MOST ( and here of course I am generalizing to the extreme) MOST are higher maintenance, and like expensive cars, MOST are apt to be stolen, or "taken for a joyride". This applies very much to the big city women - Moscow, St Pete- Kiev. Tanya is from Sumy-a smaller town ( 300k pop). Now, To ME she is beautiful, and very attractive, but frankly, a lot of you would probably find her sorta plain. What I like about her is gentleness, kindness, they way she writes, talks, laughs, and constantly worries about the health of a guy she has never set an eye on.

Nugget #3 The 1st Ten Minutes will determine everything. EVERYTHING. I'm used to this, the pressure- I competed at the International Level in Powerlifting          ( 3 USA teams in 86-87and 90). I have been a sales pro and a rainmaker in business. I have found out that in both cases months and sometimes years of prep time come down to one or two moments and that , my friends is that.The only  difference is in  Athletics or Business, you have to be prepared- here the only "prep" work I can do is to avoid looking like a Skid Row bum at Borisipol, and hope there is chemistry. Either you are willing to step "up to the bar" and give it your best shot, knowing it could crush you or you are not. I could have waited longer, perhaps as long as six months, but after 4 months, I figure it wasn't going to get any better or worse over the phone or online, so here I am, getting ready for my Nov 16th Departure. I am going to try like hell to look good when I see her, but my goodness, what a handicap with all of the flying , etc. She has tons of photos of me and my daughters, but there ain't nothing like the real thing, you know!

[timothe]

Even so, her reaction seems over the top unless she was already having a really bad day.  My experience is that almost all RW/UW approach initial meetings enthusiastically but with aplomb.  If indeed they do have strong feelings, they withhold them because they consider it bad luck to count their chickens before they hatch.

Gator, your advice was right on target but her reaction doesn't surprise me as much.  I've done all of my meetings off the beaten path.  (didn't use an agency or freepersonals.ru etc.)  I received very emotional reactions to everyone that I called.  These women were, by and large, never exposed to the WM/EM dating scene, so they tended to put it all on the line immediately. (for me)

It's possible that some of the women you've met had more dating experience and learned the hard way not to put too much hope into letters and phone calls. 

By the same token, our man here has probably over promised to this woman.  It was a mistake I made as well and it only causes consequences when one or the other person tries to back out of the relations.

[Gator]

Ironcat,

You go to Ukraine well educated, having done a lot of preparation, and with reasonable expectations.  I believe you will do well, and I hope everything is as splendid as your  hopes.

I disagree with your "first 10 minutes".  However, all of us men are different.  What works for me may not work for anyone else.  I have known my Moscow woman for 5+ years, and she still can have a bad 5 minutes.

When meeting a RW, I approach it with cautious optimism.  I try not to rush to a conclusion and instead just enjoy her company.  For sure I may feel something soon, yet she may be nervous, shy, skeptical, etc. and  only time can calm her.  Time allows our true personalities to interact where we can grow onto each other.

From what I can surmise, I believe Kuna also participated in your sport at an international level.  He was fairly quick to pull the trigger with UW but not in 10 minutes, more like 2-3 days IIRC.

[Gator]

Timothe,

I hear you.  Most RW who have met western men via agencies have had far more disappointing experiences than delightful ones.  So perhaps they are justifiably skeptical compared to the "fresh" women you met.  Yet, it is Russian culture not to celebrate an event until it happens.

[Jumper]

you are diffinantly giving her an impression of a seriuos romantic relationship ,
before ever meeting.

if that's your intent and true feelings,
understanable,
but like gator,
 i'd suggest some restraint on the flowery words and deeper feelings ?
 
in other posts you arn't even sure you'll hit it off,,
or like each other, and wondering what to do if you dont?

and even asking the best way to extract yourself ,
if it becomes that siutuation..?

then tell her this on the phone?

"I believe in you" and "I want us to be together always" and" you are not alone any more".

IMHO-
you have a right to worry about extracting yourself, if you say those type of things.

it just seems there is plenty of time to say them ,after ,
you've both  actually met and spent time together ,understanding the feelings are mutual or real?


if a RW emailed a guy here those exact words, before meeting ,
odds are however unfairly, that she would be labeled a scammer,
 because most do not develope strong feelings beforehand.

it's not that it can't happen on both sides of the pond, it's just that it isn't
probably the best idea untill meeting face to face.

both sides generally practice Gators *cautious optimism*?



everyone approaches relationships differently..

I wouldn't say those things to someone i hadn't met..ever.
heck i'd have to know them pretty dang well..
to have anywhere near those feelings..LOL
but that's me.

and i have to tell you, if i had said such to my wife, early in our relationship,,
and we HAD met already..
she would have thought me a flake..or trying to sell her something.
it wouldn't have been taken seriuosly , or well.
untill such feelings developed mutually over time.
but everyone has their own pace..


i just think this type of sentiments expressed so early adds
undo pressure to a sensitive situation anyway..

she's meeting you, its set up..
and if you hit it off,  fantastic!

that's likely enough pressure for you both.

i think you're a bit crazy to add words that wont help the clarity of the situation at this time,and perhaps only muddy it.

in fact, it did muddy things already ,
or you wouldn't have posted what *we* thought of her reaction?

to answer the post-
i think her reaction is likely genuine..and shows she has feelings for you or high "hopes"

i'm just not sure raising the hopes and expectations  ,beforehand ,
really helps anything

 if you guys are a match, you'll know soon enough in real face to face time?
 

[Mishenka]

Speaking of matches,    Russian women are looking for a man who's actions match his words.  So,, if you are going to say them, be prepared to show the love behind it.  Actions always speak louder than words.  if you are showing you lover her, she wont need to hear the words,,  as we all know,, words without action have no value.  If we say one thing and do another we become worth less in the relationship.   This is why its best to wait until you have a face to face relationship and not just phone convo's and emails.  It becomes REAL when you meet.  Trust becomes real long after that.

mishenka

[ironcat]

Good advice from everyone, even though some if t (very  midly) resembles a bit of a beatdown. Oh well, I can take it, we are all in the same boat. Anyway, like I said, maybe this is just the loneliness surfacing, I don't know. I do know that SHE is very lonely, hell 42 yrs old with an 18 yr old son, businesswoman and all. Im looking forward to the trip, but more than a little nervous, and yes, if there are feelings, I will act on them, and hopefully she will too. But, the talk of a backup plan is good, however, one of you said that ( and I'm sure this is accurate) 75% of Agency women go out on dates with guys who they don't want- are they then  compensated by the agency? Or, are they threatened with banishment from the books if they don't go out once in a while? Just a thought.But if  and this is a big fat if- I use an Agency ( Polenas in Sumy?) I will use my same age criteria- 40-44 or so, nothing younger. BTW I was coaching some of my athletes this week at a powerlifting meet and I ran into a guy there who adopted his little boy from Sumy. He told me that Sumy is a nice place, small townish, and there is even a TGI Fridays there ( next to the Agency) Good! Now, if there was just a gym!

[bgreed]

Ironcat, the guy you ran into is right about the small townishness of Sumy as you can walk accross the center in about fifteen minutes (mind you this is FSU woman walking speed so add about ten minutes for you and me) I have been all over Sumy and have never seen a TGIFridays.  There is however a MacDonalds in the center near the central market.

If you want PM me your email and I can send you some pics.

There are other smaller agencies in the city, but Polenas is considered the only really serious one because of its size.  No the girls are no compensated for going on dates.  However they are sweetly strong armed to do it so the agency gets a fee.

[ScottinCrimea]

Look at it this way:  The girls have nothing to lose by going on these dates.  At the worst they'll get a free meal and maybe some English practice and at best they might just meet someone who they are interested in.  Think of them as blind dates set up by the agency.

[groovlstk]

Good advice from everyone, even though some if t (very  midly) resembles a bit of a beatdown.

The advice you're getting to cool things down is very good, don't be put off by the harsh tone. Take it from someone who's been in your situation... are you prepared to say "nice knowing you" to this woman if you spot her in the airport waiting area and you're disappointed when she's not what you expected? Or you find some character traits that completely turn you off after your first day together?

I'm sure you're aware of this by now, but if she's truly genuine (and there's nothing to indicate otherwise) you will break her heart if she isn't the right one for you and you decide to resort to your backup plan.

It's probably impossible to cool things off at this point since you can't take back words said in the heat of the moment, but if things don't work out it's a hard, hard lesson.

[Gator]

Ironcat,

Mild beatdown! Maybe we should be stronger?

We just want you to feel comfortable about extricating yourself if the Sumy woman and you do not click.   

I am still not sure about your woman because I have never encountered such emotion.  I am reserved and so maybe I did not prompt such behavior.   A couple of men have, and one man felt everything was perfect upon meeting her, kissed her passionately, felt her shudder, made love within minutes, and married her ASAP.  He no longer posts.

Do not dismiss what AJ has to say.  He has been married 5 years to a UW and has an excellent understanding of their mentality.  Years ago I recall him writing an interesting thread about some mind games the UW play and what he did in a clever way to show that he was the MAN.

The only problem with AJ is that he posts very little - that's what happens when you have a full life and a family.  So feel honored that he took the time to help you.  

Regarding reputable agencies, I do not believe that they force or reimburse women to meet men.  As you can imagine, the top 20% of the women get 80% of the attention, and some of these women are very selective.  I would say that none of the top 20% are over 35, so considering your age range there is no need to be concerned.

I was in Cindy Agency when a woman returned from a "bad" meeting.  She complained vehemently that the Agency never sent her good men.  After she left, the office manager said she is the type of woman who would also complain if they never sent her any men.

[Jazzyclassy]

I think you should not rush as well

plus none trully knows those women from Sumy , I had a friend from Sumy she was so desperate to stay in Moscow by any means , but unfortunately no fool for her to  give her Moscow propiska .....

What I mean is that one meeting is not enough to understand your real feelings  it took us 2 years and 4 trips to get to know each other a little, we are still learning things about each other and will learn, as to understand a person's philosophy for such little period of time it is really impossible, sometimes we do not know ourselves to the full , how we will react in this or that situation , so what can we say about the other person's soul - it is darkness for us

It is nice that you are delighted about meeting this woman , it should be like that , it should be positive feeling for you , even if nothing is going to click, it would still be an experience for you , go with the flow and never worry . The main thing always be careful with money and your property and be careful with your feelings.Just think of the meeting as you are meeting a nice friend and no matter what happens you will be ok

A woman without Emotions - it is not a woman, maybe I am judging according to myself, but whom else I have to judge Emotions it is incredible, it is the way how women and men express themselves, Emotions do not mean necessarily  she is screaming, beating, biting, kicking and hysterical, Emotions can be shown in that moment when they are supposed to be shown. Emotionless person is a robot and all reserved person , who has to learn how to express himself/herself

Do not be afraid of emotions it is all natural , it comes from the heart.

and in any case no matter what happens during the meeting of this woman, just be in harmony with yourself, be calm, if she is not for you , God will show you this .....

[Jumper]

don't be put off by the harsh tone

ironcat-glad you took it in the light it was intended,

re-reading it , my post did seem a little harsh..
but text doesnt convey tone ,or intent very well sometimes.

i was more *worried*/concerned*  you were both a bit  over-invested is all...

and pointing out the possible hazards of that.,
 and the fact the rewards would come, without the initial over-investment.


Gator,
 LOL thanks for the props !

I doubt ironcat feels honoured  
but he seems to have a good thick skin that will serve him well here, and in the FSU ventures..

as far as my old adventures, i couldnt imagine what all i might have posted..
back then..lol!
I do appreciate the vote of confidence,,
and did seem to somewhat foolishly and confidently stumble thru many of the variuos wacky scenerios youll find in this adventure, without much damage, heh!
 but my actions in that time, were more likely due  to some of the seriuosly crazy situations, and just my natural reaction,, or amusement..
rather than me really being the "man" ,
or any true understanding of the wonderful , but rather alien species, women..LOL
(particularly Russian Women)

There never was a more appropriate place for the saying---
 The more you learn, the less you know!

You know i dont post/read  often anymore ,
but have been trying to keep up with your own many adventures..
is there a gator/bucky status thread you could direct me to?

A couple of men have, and one man felt everything was perfect upon meeting her, kissed her passionately, felt her shudder, made love within minutes, and married her ASAP.  He no longer posts.

is this in reference to mark in texas?
i was also wondering what became of Mark..

sorry for the offtopic

[Jumper]

Nice post jazzy,
 that is very good advice..


(by the way ,my wife and i  dated 2 years before marriage,and i was working off and on in europe at the time, so circumstances allowed us to  see each other rather often..
i guess thats taking things slow compared to many here, but that still seemed very fast to us.. )

 

[ScottinCrimea]

Heck, I wrote to my wife for a year, visited her 4 times over the next year and then lived with her for a year and a half before I married her.  I guess I'm the real slow poke of the bunch!  But then I can't say that I didn't know what I was getting myself into.