Tver For The Holidays

[Noleman]

Hello All,

I will be in Tver from Dec. 28th through Jan. 14th and was wondering if anyone else might be there at that same time.  Would be great to meet up for a beer.

Thanks,
Noleman

[Simoni]

Hello All,

I will be in Tver from Dec. 28th through Jan. 14th and was wondering if anyone else might be there at that same time.  Would be great to meet up for a beer.

Thanks,
Noleman

Don't know yet, Noleman.  Marina wants to go home for the holidays, but I'm trying to move her to "once a year" trips home.  Last winter in Kiev almost froze me! And worse, she wants to visit Moscow and st pete this winter!  That's even further north!

 I'll keep you posted. If we are there, I'll buy you a cup of HOT coffee :-)

[Eastguy]

Ill be there the last week in November..
Just missed you:)

[av8or1]

I'll be there in the last part of November AND for Christmas/New Years Eve, so both of you contact me and we can meet up!

Thanks,

Jerry

[Mir]

I will be in Kiev for the New Year.

Yes it is bitter cold yet still very romantic

[Eastguy]

I am leaving on satruday stop in germany irst for 3 days then russian next wednesday..
Jerry. PM me if you would with you number and Ill call you beofere I leave.

Will be there until the 29th russian lanaguage course at delta intercontact.

...

[av8or1]

And with that....I'm off!

I leave in the AM tomorrow (well today now - Friday), 4 hour layover in ATL and then on to Moscow.  'Just wanted to wish all of you a good Thanksgiving!  I'm gonna miss everything, 'specially the football, but hey...

I'll try to post while over there as Olga will be teaching during the day.  If anyone needs me to be a mule, send me a PM...

Take care,

Jerry

[Rvrwind]

Have fun guys. Wish I could be there buutttt unfortunately...
I hope you have a great time...
First holiday season in 5 years I won't be celebrating in Tver or with my Valya...
I better stop now....
Have a good trip guys. My regards to all!

[av8or1]

Gang,

How is everyone back in the West?  It's C-O-L-D here, 'specially for someone from TEXAS!  There's snow and ice so I can't run, which is not making me happy, but such is life.  Olga is off teaching school, so I thought I'd pop into an Internet cafe and see what y'all are up to on RWD.....

Then there's this, which I thought I'd share.  'Seems like an obvious thing, looking back on our conversation, I mean we're talking a REAL "duh-oh" moment here, but at the time it seemed revolutionary.  Perhaps that was/is because of the source, a RW.  One data point, but an authentic one.  Ok so I am straying.  Anyway.  Olga and I were talking Sunday night about the whole foreign man - Russian (or Ukrainian or whatever-ian) woman thing.  The conversation came up because she told me how much she didn't like the agency (LTP).  When I asked why it wasn't because it isn't a good agency, it was because of the stigma that is often associated in this society with women who participate in such agencies.  "Interesting" I thought.  "You never mentioned that before" said I.  "I no want you think bad of me so I no say," was her response.  After thinking for a minute I realized "think bad" == the contradiction of saying that she didn't like the agency but then still using it, albeit sparingly in Olga's case.  "Hmmmmm..." I thought.  Interesting.

So that's thing one: the agency stigma thing appears to be alive and well.  Olga claims that other women feel the same but that they want family and children with a good man so they're willing to do "a lot" to get this, even if it means joining an agency.  Hmmmmmmm....given our recent agency discussions on RWD, I thought I'd bring this subject back up....discuss amongst yourselves. ;-)

That's thing one.

Thing two explores the whole notion of a foreign man search vs. an emerging economy in the FSU.  Another debate we've had on RWD (and other discussion groups) that seemed worthy of re-opening.  Some of you may disagree, but remember I don't have much to do for another 5 or 6 hours!

Ok, so Olga told me that eventhough women (and people too, but only women join dating agencies) may not have very much money at all, they can still live a "good life" in Russia.  "Good life" is of course relative, but I digress.  She told me that there was a time when stores didn't have much stock, produce or even basic necessities, which we in the West are all too familiar with.  What seemed new to my mind (somehow, dunno how exactly) was that she told me further that because of the "better economy" women usually have a big reason to look for a foreign man.  "Sometimes is bad reason, sometime is good reason" she explained.  "Man need be careful to look woman for reason."

Hmmmm....intuitive, obvious and yet somehow refreshing.  Dunno.

Anyway, just ramblings to share.  'Be interested to see what feedback y'all come up with.  Either way, the newbies should be listening....

Y'all take care.  Eat some turkey, stuffing, mashed potatoes with gravy, rolls, bread, ice cream, pies (pecan), and drink a bunch of iced tea for me on Thursday.  Also watch some football!

Jerry

[SANDRO43]

she told me further that because of the "better economy" women usually have a big reason to look for a foreign man.

That sounds a bit contradictory, or am I missing something ?

"Sometimes is bad reason, sometime is good reason" she explained.

Aviator1, it would be interesting if Olga could elaborate on this .

[timothe]

...So that's thing one: the agency stigma thing appears to be alive and well.  Olga claims that other women feel the same but that they want family and children with a good man so they're willing to do "a lot" to get this, even if it means joining an agency.  Hmmmmmmm....given our recent agency discussions on RWD, I thought I'd bring this subject back up....discuss amongst yourselves. ;-)...

I think women have a different "agency stigma" than the "agency stigma" that men apply to them.  (I'm only guessing because I never used an agency myself.)

Perhaps other FSUW view women that go to an agency as "greedy" or "desperate".  I'm guessing that many women who use an agency don't tell their families until/unless the man they want is in their city. 

I've always viewed agency women as tainted, that's why I never used an agency.  I've met some of the men that are doing this and some of them just don't have all of the pieces in place.  However, these men will go and spoil the women either by showering them with expensive gifts or by using them for sex.  (or both)  Additionally, some of the women may have met men in the past who promised them, then reneged on their promises.  Many of these women are like rotten apples still hanging on the tree.  They may have been good marriage candidates at one time, but now they are more likely to be filled with worms.   

[Mir]

I've met some of the men that are doing this and some of them just don't have all of the pieces in place.  However, these men will go and spoil the women either by showering them with expensive gifts or by using them for sex.  (or both)  Additionally, some of the women may have met men in the past who promised them, then reneged on their promises.  Many of these women are like rotten apples still hanging on the tree.  They may have been good marriage candidates at one time, but now they are more likely to be filled with worms.   

I fail to see how all this abuse can happen only to agency girls. Any girl who starts a relationship with a man (foreign or local) can be a potential victim of all the atrocities described above.
Men who want to date FSU women will need some means of contacting them (unless they are living in FSU and can meet at work etc.) So it will be agency, internet dating sites, adds in newspapers, icq, pamphlets dropped from aircraft, advert circulated on goodyear balloon etc etc, at the end the ones who want to abuse the women will go down that rout and those sincere will do that, regardless of how they meet the women.

[acrzybear]

Also watch some football!
Jerry

Jerry

I'll be working, Well actually I'll be hanging out at the fire department watching the Cowboys whup on the Jets   Enjoy yourself with your lady in Tver

[groovlstk]

I fail to see how all this abuse can happen only to agency girls. Any girl who starts a relationship with a man (foreign or local) can be a potential victim of all the atrocities described above.

No doubt, but the majority of FSU women have never dated a foreigner. When a girl joins an agency, she's saying at the very least that she's open to marrying a foreigner. This puts her in a more likely position of dating one, don't you think?

[Mir]

No doubt, but the majority of FSU women have never dated a foreigner. When a girl joins an agency, she's saying at the very least that she's open to marrying a foreigner. This puts her in a more likely position of dating one, don't you think?

Of course, what I can't understand is why a girl who dates a foreigner through an agency is in anyway stigmatized compared with the girl who finds a foreign man by other means?

[groovlstk]

Why? Cuz it just is, man

I see similar attitudes to people who use online dating sites here in the US, although the stigma has faded in the past few years as the younger generation embraced it and made it hip.

Since you've spent a lot of time on the ground in the FSU surely you've witnessed the power of rumor. When I first met my wife and confessed I'd used agencies in the past, she lectured me about how foolish I was. She had friends of distant relatives who were screwed over by unscrupulous foreign men, or female friends of colleagues who were scammers or prostitutes.

Having used agencies I know such blanket statements are false, but because enough girls believe it I've advocated that guys should diversify their ways of meeting FSU women in order to reach out to population segments they'd never have access to if they insisted on using one method exclusively.

[groovlstk]

Of course, what I can't understand is why a girl who dates a foreigner through an agency is in anyway stigmatized compared with the girl who finds a foreign man by other means?

1) Rumors of bad women and men who exploit the service for pro-dating, scamming, sex tours, etc. abound among FSU women. I'd guess that the incidence of such is lower on Russian dating sites as Russian men simply wouldn't put up with the exploitive crap that Western men not only accept but sometimes encourage.
2) By joining an agency a girl is flat-out stating she's not satisfied with her local options. What does that say to her married friends and family? I see the reverse side of the coin in some married couples I meet in the US, particularly women. For the women, there's an implied insult in that I wasn't satisfied with what they, as a group, had to offer and instead chose Russian cuisine. For the men, there's an implied insult in that what was good enough for them wasn't good enough for me.

[Misha]

Of course, what I can't understand is why a girl who dates a foreigner through an agency is in anyway stigmatized compared with the girl who finds a foreign man by other means?

And, the men who date via agency aren't stigmatized? Most couples that I know who met through the internet conceal this fact to avoid the stigma attached to it.

[av8or1]

And, the men who date via agency aren't stigmatized? Most couples that I know who met through the internet conceal this fact to avoid the stigma attached to it.

Dunno what you're getting at, but you missed the point here, or at least my original point.  The subject seems to have morphed a bit since I last brought it up.  In the US, there is a stigma associated with ANY Internet dating.  You are correct to say that many couples hide it, 'cause they do.  However, what we're talking about here is an actual dating *agency* in the FSU, which is a finer level of minusha in a way I suppose, but in the end, it's still a different animal in my mind.  The key difference being that in our own country a man who "hooks up with" a foreign woman will have a certain stigma attached to him and it won't matter that he met her through an agency or via another method.  "It's all bad" as it was once described to me by an AW and her AM, and it won't matter that you met via an agency.  All that will play in their minds is that she's foreign.  By contrast, meeting an AW via the Internet will have a different stigma than that associated with a foreign woman.  That stigma will still be "bad" but somehow not "as bad" as the foreign woman stigma.  And then of course the stigma mysteriously disappears when/if you meet the woman via a "conventional channel" such as an introduction through common friends.  It is hypocritical and unfair, but most things in life are.  'Point I'm making is that although we (or at least I) were (was) in the same church with ya, we're talking different pews here.  And for me it's probably different denominations too, so different churches, but I digress.

Sandro I talked with Olga again last night to get the clarification you mentioned.  My original post may have been slightly confusing, but when I said "in this society", this == Russian, so I wasn't attempting to discuss how those in the West view this sort of thing.  Anyway she told me that there are exceptions and some people don't think bad of agencies.  Most do however, and for reasons that have already been cited: only crappy foreign men use agencies, a woman who tries them is "greedy", or such a woman is betraying her country by leaving it, that kind of thing.  As for Olga, her family didn't really care so much about the agency, certainly not as much as Olga did.  Only her mother knew about her involvement.  Once the family learned about the mechanism used in our introduction, they didn't seem to care.  'Course by then it had been established that I was a "normal man" so perhaps that played a part in their disposition to the issue.  Dunno.

Anyway, as a final contribution Olga told me that this stigma in Russia is changing slowly.  She told me that more and more people don't care about agencies because of the "emerging economy" issue.  Apparently that plays a bigger part than anything, at least in her mind.  She said that most any woman in Russia can have this "good life" thing so she doesn't need to look for a foreign man.  As already mentioned, if a woman does conduct such a search, there is a reason and the man should find out why.

'Seems timely to conclude this post with a semi-quote from a guy who I met once (and still have some communication with) in Kiev, who was living there on a full-time basis.  He shocked me once by telling me that 95% of the women in-country are not interested in foreign men at all.  Whatsoever.  At first this seemed difficult to believe, though I lent him a lot of credence because of his experience in living in-country for so long.  Well, after 16 trips (at least, I haven't counted in a while to be honest) and almost 4 years of this crap I understand what he was saying and agree with him completely.  I actually came to this conclusion a few trips ago, but I digress...

'Course then there's the whole argument that's been done to death of 5% of "a lot" is still "a lot", but I don't feel up to engaging in that thread again.  I mention this simply to help out the newbies.  Hopefully this will help keep their kid-in-the-candy-store behavior in check, though probably not...

Ok, Olga will be home in an hour, so gotta go.  Gonna meet with Noleman and his RW tonight, so that'll be cool.

Take care and Happy Thanksgiving!

Jerry

[Rvrwind]

by then it had been established that I was a "normal man"

Mmmmm, I think this part begs for more discussion.... 

[wxman]

I think the stigma of internet dating affects mainly those 30+ in age, as internet dating was generally not a dating tool for this group in their younger years. However, the younger generation has no problem with internet dating and are not afraid to admit they met someone online. They have been raised on the internet and it's just an extension of their social network. Who knows, in the future meeting the "old fashioned way" will carry the same stigma that internet dating currently does for the older generation.

[av8or1]

Hey Gang,

Well I made it back from Tver ok late last night.  When I left early Sunday morning Russia (the area around Moscow anyway) was having a virtual blizzard of some sort.  The snow was up to my ankles deep and it was still coming down.  Olga commented that it was "a true Russian winter" and was happy about the affair.  I OTOH was glad to be leaving before it got any worse. ;-)  Funny how tons of snow makes "Russia beautiful now" in her words, and when it's not snowing and you can see the decay for what it really is, it's "no beautiful in Russia now."  It seems almost like snow == Russian deodorant or something...

But now I am rambling again.  The trip was good overall, things between Olga and me went well so we are still together.  For now anyway.  It's been kinda rocky by my standards, but those tend to be tighter than my fruit-of-the-loom whities, so...hey.  We may end up tying the not this next year and if so I'll be sure to announce it to my friends on RWD.  I'm the anthesis to the one-week wonder thing however, this month being the one-year anniversary of our meeting that it is and yet I'm still in a wait-n-see, or rather wait-n-make-damn-cottin-pickin-sure, mode of operation.  She's growing tired of the wait, so I suspect the fork in the road is within sight on the horizon.

One thing's for certain.  Kinda.  If she and I meet again over Christmas/New Year's, which we're supposed to do, it won't be in Tver.  When we do that she has to work and it seriously reduces the amount of time we spend together.  So I've asked her to check in with her boss and see about a vacation during this time.  If she receives approval for that we'll go somewhere new.  Since my existing reservation (already paid for BTW) is with Delta, I'll probably just change it to Kiev and be done with it.  She's never been there, I have and like it, so it's a win-win thing.  If she cannot get some vacation time then I suppose it's back to Tver again.  Letcha know.

Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving!

Jerry

ps-Just for funzzies I asked Olga for her opinion regarding the 95% rule and she agreed with me.  She has many acquaintences and a few friends and she told me that none of them are interested in meeting with a foreign man.  Not one.  Oouuccchh!  Too bad because some of her friends are ... well to come back again to the vernacular - HOT!  I mean the H-O-T kind of hot.  I would have liked to have fixed a couple of you RWDers up, but alas no...

[av8or1]

Ok gang,

Headin' back to Tver on Saturday.  I extended my stay until the 7th.  I'll post while over there 'cause I will have a fair amount of down time while Olga is at work.  I've been hitting the cheap movie bins at Wal Mart the past week looking for entertainment.  Although I splurged on Bourne Ultimatum, in general I just can't bring myself to pay $15 for a DVD.  And I don't like the hassle of renting.  But now I am straying ... again.  It seems quite reasonable to conclude that I won't get much running done either...Olga tells me that it's snowing now with plenty of ice.  Oh yee-hah.  Another holiday season of belly-growing.  Oh well, there are worse problems.  Like noone beating those $@#^&!@#%!@^ Patriots!  Can't wait to see them fall.  And it will happen.  You heard it here first! ;-)

Y'all have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Years!

Best,

Jerry

[Bruce]

Jerry - take her to Zavidovo if you are in Tver for the New Year.  Expensive, but well worth it.

Here is some information for you:

http://all-hotels.ru/h111166/hotel/index.en.html

http://all-hotels.ru/h111166/hotel/index.en.html?kk=749f0df957

[av8or1]

Jerry - take her to Zavidovo if you are in Tver for the New Year.  Expensive, but well worth it.

Here is some information for you:

http://all-hotels.ru/h111166/hotel/index.en.html

http://all-hotels.ru/h111166/hotel/index.en.html?kk=749f0df957

Thank you for the suggestion Bruce, but this year Olga wanted to stay at home and cook for us (strongly suggested == practically insisted).  This in a real way speaks well of her character, so I was happy with it.  'Been to enough New Year's Eve parties anyway by this point in life. ;-)

I checked out those links though, seemed like a good place to go....

Best,

Jerry