European versus American Culture

[Kuna]

In another thread there were some interesting observations regarding culture... Not the culture of FSU countries but the culture of countries of men that search for a FSUW.

It might be interesting to discuss the cultural differences of our respective countries, and our perception of each others cultures... AND THE IMPACT THAT WOULD HAVE ON A FSUW MOVING TO ANOTHER COUNTRY.

The posts that made me think of this are noted below:

  Well, this could be the begining of another post, which are the differences between americans and europeans. I will give my point of view but it is influenced from my spanish origin, so as european I would say something but perhaps and English or a German would see from a different point of view.
   Are we more sophisticated? donīt know, I havenīt spoken with so many americans to get an impresion, and I could think about a  type of people from Europe which is the most unsophisticate I could think. What I can say it is they donīt travel abroad as much as Europeans.  Are they richer? perhaps in some cases but I think ,in average, Sweedens or people from switzerland or  Netherlands are richer.They usually dress different  we can think we dress better but this is a very subjective opinion perhaps in the States we will be overdressed.
    But one thing completely different is how we look the work we do. At least in Spain there is a lot of people who work for living and prefer more holidays or free time instead of earning more money, so it is very usual to find people  with universitary studies prefering the public administration (for their timetable and holidays) to work in the private sector despite winning more money. If  I am not wrong I would say for instance that in Spain we have 30 holidays days plus 11 days off and I think in the states are like 15 holidays days(dunno about your days off) . I think they are more centred in their work that we are and you could get the impression that they are richer but they work harder than us tp get it.

I think views of other cultures have been off the mark throughout history. Probably why there has been so many wars. In order to fully understand America, one must be an American. In order to fully understand Russia, one must be Russian. Same goes for all the other countries, and in fact for all the smaller societies in each country.  Reading books, watching movies, or even travelling to the country will not give you a true understanding of that country or more importantly it's people, instead you come away with a brief somewhat off center view.

My initial thoughts...

1. I believe Australian culture is different from those cultures in the US AND in Europe and the perception of our culture from outside may be (or is) different to the perceptions (or beliefs) inside of our country.

Example... I read an article this morning about the British response the the London Terrorist bombings and how Australia's response would differ to the Brits...  the commentator (a Brit) said that Australia's response would be "very different because of the uncouth nature of Australians".  Funnily really...  being forthright and "saying it as it is" being called "uncouth"... but I guess some people see it like that.

2. I believe many European cultures focus more on Quality of Life rather than Standard of Living. An example of this is a comment from My Girl when we first started talking about where we would live.  She said a disadvantage of living in the west was our obsession with "making credit" and then working hard to pay it off... whereas she felt Ukrainians worked to have a good life and didn't tend to accumulate debt (like she saw westerners do). 

This could be a thread on it's own...  but the debt driven society we all live in IS different to how it was in FSU...  Things are changing in FSU though.


I have a perception that it is common many European communities to go out for coffee/cake/people watching/walks/etc (evening after dinner or in the evenings) than it is in the west (US, UK, Australia). People here certainly go out for walks for health and fitness purposes, but I don't see many people taking walks for pleasure (or romance).

My Girl said (before arriving) she wanted us to take walks ever night after dinner.  For the first week or so I was confused because we would go for walks and I would walk at a pace like I do at work... or faster.  Nope... she meant romantic walks... 

3. Freely giving money away (tipping) seems more culturally ingrained in US culture than it does downunder.  We aren't expected to tip though most people in my circle of friends will tip wait staff/etc if the service is good and the experience acceptable.  The size of the tip depends on the quality of the experience. 

In the US tipping is often included on restaurant bills and tipping is expected almost everywhere you go (in service industries).  I think this leads to Americans believe giving money away over and above the standard service charge (tipping) is the norm... and therefore they appear less prudent with their hard earned money.

So...  sending money to someone you don't know... paying too much for a service... having a lower expectation of service levels... and writing off overcharging (by maybe 20%) perhaps isn't a big deal if you come from a culture where giving money away (tipping) is the norm. ???

4. Friendliness... or the perceptions of friendless are obvious when we're in foreign places. We often hear men visiting FSU comment on the unfriendly faces they see in the street. My Girl's perception of living in Germany was that the people we're (generally) unfriendly. Since arriving in Oz she is amazed that people are so friendly and casual.  She's even joining in on the banter and casual conversation with shop staff and waiters.     ... and loving it!

I know many Americans will think America is a friendly society but if you're coming through Immigration or walking through Manhattan for the first time you mightn't think so...  This also raises another complexity of sub-cultures that we (and FSUW should consider).






I could raise other examples but that's a start...

I just thought it would be interesting to hear people's perceptions of the differences it would make to a FSUW migrating to different countries... and the things we believe about different countries.

I know some people think Australia is one big outback with kangaroos in every backyard just as much as some think all FSUW are desperate to leave their homelands... 

What are your perceptions of your culture and other cultures... and what advantages and disadvantages would that present to a FSUW marrying overseas?


Kuna

[I/O]

1. I believe Australian culture is different

Culture ??? ??? We have culture Nah.........don't think so. Just ask a European. (If you can be bothered)

I/O

[Gator]

Kuna,

Your young woman will appreciate the concept of debt when she learns what the two of you will pay over the next 10 years renting a flat vs. buying a home.  However, currently in America, the housing market is troubled and renting does look attractive for a year or two.

Debt was not possible in the SU and the FSU.  People purchased flats as part of cascading deals in which each buyer brought a suitcase filled with dollars.     Prices nevertheless escalated even though ownership could not be leveraged with typical debt.  Now that one can borrow money in the FSU to buy a car,  more people own cars.  Debt will come to the FSU.

[SANDRO43]

Kuna, you raise quite a lot of points, and I'll have a stab at answering a few. First of all, I agree with most of what Waxman said, also adding that many times in history our perception of "others" has been manipulated in different ways for a purpose: just to cite an example Great Britain was sobriquet'ed "perfidious Albion" (curiously enough, Albion is Scotland's name in Gaelic) in 1935 , because they were the most vociferous advocates in the Society of Nations for sanctions against Fascist Italy for our invasion of Abyssinia. The media play an important part in shaping public perception and opinion, particularly when censorship and propaganda are in action.

and the perception of our culture from outside may be (or is) different to the perceptions (or beliefs) inside of our country.

As an example of the above, our perception of Australia is VERY limited, since you rarely make the news here. I think "Crocodile Dundee" may have done more to boost that perception than books and TV, although probably not in a very objective way .

2. I believe many European cultures focus more on Quality of Life rather than Standard of Living

Well, the two are connected, aren't they, unless you mean the latter in financial terms only .

... but the debt driven society we all live in IS different

Fortunately, not everybody here is obsessed with going all-out to acquire possessions, although there has been a steady erosion of the tradition of saving part of one's income for possible future needs and to meet unforeseen circumstances.

I have a perception that it is common many European communities to go out for coffee/cake/people watching/walks/etc (evening after dinner or in the evenings) than it is in the west (US, UK, Australia). People here certainly go out for walks for health and fitness purposes, but I don't see many people taking walks for pleasure (or romance).

I'd say that Latins in general are more gregarious, and in Southern Europe the milder weather encourages relaxed outdoor activities.

3. Freely giving money away (tipping) seems more culturally ingrained in US culture than it does downunder.  We aren't expected to tip though most people in my circle of friends will tip wait staff/etc if the service is good and the experience acceptable.  The size of the tip depends on the quality of the experience. 

Same here, since a fixed tip is included (though not visible) in the bill.

In the US tipping is often included on restaurant bills

I believe that traditionally tips were NOT included in US restaurant bills, and I remember Americans in Italy asking me about our local tipping customs.

[Gator]

In America, waiters derive most of their income from tips.  Unlike Europeans, wages paid to waiters by their employer are minimal ($2.15/hour). 

[wxman]

I believe that traditionally tips were NOT included in US restaurant bills, and I remember Americans in Italy asking me about our local tipping customs.

Correct on most cases. However that is starting to change. I have come across restaurants that will automatically add 10% to 15% to your bill as a tip, if there are more than 6 or 7 people on the tab.  

[SANDRO43]

In his student days, our former Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi (Italy's TV moghul) was the crooner in a small combo playing aboard Italian cruise ships in the summertime, and he reminisced fondly about tips from American passengers, accounting for most of their revenue .

He isn't much of a singer, though .

[Gator]

Speaking of adjusting to another culture, in some cases the climate is the most difficult factor.  Such is the case with a friend of my Moscow woman.  She recently arrived in Oz, and finds the heat and sun the most difficult adjustment.

This photo of her in the mid-day sun says it all.  It is really funny if you knew this woman. We all hear the stories about how RW dress up when going out in public.  Not necessarily.  Is this not spring time?  What will she do in the January heat?

Fortunately my woman loves the Florida heat and humidity.  We looked like a couple of redneck crackers driving around with our windows down in August.

[Misha]

Debt will come to the FSU.

It is already there. Now people borrow money to buy apartments (if they can afford it) and they borrow money for cars, appliances, and pretty much everything else that we can get credit for in North America. Every large store has its own credit department and people can get personal loans if they have a stable job and usually a couple people to support them in the application.

[SANDRO43]

It doesn't look as if it's raining in the photo. Was she using the 'brolly as a parasol ? Maybe she heard talk about the hole in the ozone layer .

[wxman]

It is already there. Now people borrow money to buy apartments (if they can afford it) and they borrow money for cars, appliances, and pretty much everything else that we can get credit for in North America. Every large store has its own credit department and people can get personal loans if they have a stable job and usually a couple people to support them in the application.

Which is worse, giving your soul to the state or giving it to the bank? Khrushchev said they will bury us. Not too hard when we already dug the big hole of debt. 

[Makkin]

Kuna,

  I lived in Australia and I've lived in other countries and now I'm home and I live in Texas..lol

  It is a learning process is all and with it comes the social norms which in time seem normal right?..lol

Makkin

[Muj]

I've met many Europeans with opinions on the US:
One said that America was a desert and had many large cacti.
Another said that her strange landlords had lectured her for staying out late and drinking.
Another said it was palm trees with fat men in Bermuda shorts.
Another said friendly people in a flat land where grass even grows in some accumulated black soil on the car bumper.  Well this can continue but you may see the idea.

All had been to a different geography, population density, historical background in the US (AZ,UT,CA  - LA, MN).  Hard to make generalizations.  
Kuna, the idea that Americans are generally imprudent with money base on tipping is kinda stupid.  Many money cautious Americans here.  
Friendliness depends on location.  Same as France - Paris not friendly, Alps friendly.
Credit is the advantage of the richer nations.  Applied correctly it enhances life.  Recently, small loans to grassroots businesses in India is considered a leap in improving life.
Plenty of people outside and walk where I live.  We walk almost every night.
In the US, FSU, and WU you meet many money minded people and many not so money minded.
My Euro ancestors moved here because culture didn't put food on the table or a roof over the head.  Money did both .

[I/O]

in the mid-day sun

We say here that only "Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun". My Siberian crew revel in the heat and just love it. The biggest problem I've had is educating them as to the dangers of the central/northern Aussie sun which EVERYONE way underestimates. Those who come to Aus and reside in Sydney or further south are in much less danger although the temperatures can be hotter, the UV factor is not so great in the southern areas. Here it is literally a killer.

Getting down to some of the questions.  USA and tipping seems to come as a result or a very low minimum wage for service workers. Here it is well above the basic living level and as such tipping is very much optional and is usually only for very outstanding service although it is becoming more common now.

Sandro: We rarely make the news in many areas and we rather like it that way.  Maybe as a result there is little known of our country, but I have been surprised as to how well informed some Russians are regarding Aus. Very surprised. Genuine Aussies tend to like to play it rather low key, but of course the exceptions who make the rest of us cringe in shame can be often seen in international airports and frequenting the loser bars all over. Sad but true.

Although I think many Europeans would Howell in protest, my impressions are that many are not well informed regarding goings-on outside Europe. I hear some of their comments and smile at their lack of knowledge. It is rather ironic IME as they are often very critical of non Europeans for the very same reasons. (Not that Aussies are generally very well informed either)

My wife will have her struggles as time goes along and of course the frustrations that go with this, but I have been pleasantly surprised thus far as to how easily she has slid into the local way of doing things. Transport, shopping, social events and meeting people have come fairly easily to her so far, but it is early days and there is much ground to cover before she could call herself a local.  Nevertheless, even at this early stage, I would suggest although Russian and Aussie culture are worlds apart, these Russian girls can adapt quite well. I doubt I could do as well if the tables were turned.

I wonder in the time of so called globalisation if many of us have not moved further towards living in our own bubbles as such.

I/O

 

[Mir]

and he reminisced fondly about tips from American passengers, accounting for most of their revenue .

He isn't much of a singer, though .

And obviously they ain't much of listeners either

Kuna

I wonder what has Murali got to say about the friendliness of the Aussies?

[Simoni]

...the idea that Americans are generally imprudent with money base on tipping is kinda stupid.  Many money cautious Americans here.  

One is not being loose with their money when they tip.  They are simply paying the waiter what is due.

What most people NOT from the US do not realize is that  the "tip" is actually the majority of the salary for the waiter.

Marina has a young russian gf who works as a waiter at a nice place on the gulf.   The girls makes $2.25 an hour; the rest of her money is tips.  She hates waiting on visitors from abroad, because they do not tip.

But all of this is on topic, because this is a big cultural difference that non-americans often misunderstand.

Marina is fine with giving tips, and always tips better than my 15% standard.  What she gripes about is the sales tax!  In Ukraine, the price marked or quoted is the final price.

[ScottinCrimea]

The US is a big country and there is a huge difference in the attitudes, culture, etc. of people living in New York vs LA vs the deep south vs the midwest vs Hawaii, etc. etc.  Sometimes I feel myself more in a foreign country visiting some of these places than I do in Ukraine.  One of the big problems I see regarding foreigners' perceptions of the US is that they are based on the most popular tourist sites such as New York, Los Angeles, Washington DC or Miami.  So they go back to their country and describe the US in terms of their experiences there.  I tell people that New York and LA are the least representative cities in the US of American culture.

[jb]

If you break it down, I believe it is as below;

"T" = To
"I" = Insure
"P" = Prompt
"S" = Service

If a European guy is content with the level of service he gets without tipping, that's his problem.  Most Americans are willing to pay a little extra to get the service they want.  It doesn't mean we are stupid with our money, it just means we are able to tell the wait staff how much we like, or don't like,,, the service...  0-5% = piss poor,,,, 5-10% = OK,,, 15%+, =  good to excellent, (and we might even like your jokes).

I rarely tip less than $5.00, even for a single lunch, it's just not worth the waiters time to serve me for less.
What's the problem with tipping?  El Cheapo Europeans don't like to tip???  You get what you pay for...

Go figure.

[I/O]

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do" has kinda been my motto when travelling. When in the USA, I have tended to tip around the 15% mark and I haven't had too many adverse reactions, so it seems to be somewhere near the accepted mark.

Here at home is a very different situation altogether.  Casual wait staff in daylight hours are being paid at around or above $15.00 per hour and night or weekend staff usually receive 50% above that.  This is legislated minimum wage rates, thus tipping for me is only for outstanding service. The difference being that the price of food for example usually reflects the wage rates. More expensive here than in the USA. (Depending a little on location)

The other factor that comes into play here is that many cafe managers don't allow their staff to accept individual tips, but have a general staff tip tray or similar. This irks me as, if I am going to tip, it is for the effort that one person put in, not for the people coming onto the next shift to share.

The taxi industry in which I work is an area where tipping is becoming very common now and it produces another argument. The driver receives a tip for outstanding service and many taxi owners are expecting a cut of that tip. For mine (And I own some as well as manage the company) it is the driver who did the work, it cost me no more for him to drive well, so the tip is his and his alone.

Aussies have a notoriously bad attitude to tipping but IMO, even in our own country where it is not so common, there still is a time and a place. When elsewhere do what is appropriate. IE: When in Rome...............p!ss on the sidewalk.

I/O

[Makkin]

Hello,

  While visiting Rottnest Island in Western "A" (western Australia) we ate and dined each evening in the same and only restaurant where I tipped 10 bob to the young lady and she danced with happiness as she had extra loot for the pub after work. She did a great job and we understood that we did not have to tip her but it was and always is in "my" budget to do so for good service. She was a funny bird but very happy.

Makkin

[I/O]

Hello,

  While visiting Rottnest Island in Western "A" (western Australia) we ate and dined each evening in the same and only restaurant where I tipped 10 bob to the young lady and she danced with happiness as she had extra loot for the pub after work. She did a great job and we understood that we did not have to tip her but it was and always is in "my" budget to do so for good service. She was a funny bird but very happy.

Makkin

10 bob....A whole dollar. Last of the big spenders?

I/O

[wxman]

I tell people that New York and LA are the least representative cities in the US of American culture.

They treat the rest of us low brow Americans poorly in those cities too. 

[SANDRO43]

You get what you pay for...

Which means you tip before being served. Sounds more like a bribe than a tip .

[Makkin]

LOL,

  Sorry I/O the tip was 10 Quid..lol Did I say 10 bob?..lol

  I gave her the blue note if my memory serves me right? 10 dollars it was.....Ermmm..No not 10 pounds and not the orange note or the white one but the 10 dollar note..

Makkin

[Gator]

Today I thought about the cultural differences between Europe and America (sorry, do not know OZ), and I could not pinpoint anything substantial other than the above average European seems to know more about culture than the above average American.   

My business, years ago, acquired a small European company doing similar work.  This gave me the opportunity to rub shoulders with European counterparts.  We had virtually the same goals.  I observed little substantive difference in how we accomplished them.  There was a difference in style; however, even that was unremarkable.

Whether the service charge is in the bill or added as a tip is not a cultural difference.  Nor is whether you take a siesta in the afternoon or have high tea.  It is not significant that you like your food spicier or your beer warmer.  Nor is it  important to disallow a mulligan on the first tee (confounded Irishmen).  These differences mean little in my book.   

While our governments may at times do some stupid things, our democracies will eventually change governments, and we seem to come back near the center not to far removed from each other.

Remarkable cultural differences are when suicide and murder are justified in the name of Allah.  A society that admires the best liars.   "Eye for an eye" mentality. Putting 100 innocent men in prison to make sure one guilty man is not on the street. 

With regard to Russia, I see some stark differences:
-   Rule of law is applied differentially if not at all.
-   Corruption is so embedded that it is acceptable and considered part of doing business.           
-   Having a mistress is expected. 
-   Democracy is not complete and general stability is elusive. 
-   People are rude and suspicious. 
-   Women are not placed on equal footing. 
-   Etc.

These differences will affect a RW in subtle ways.  Yet, if you and she are committed to your relationship, and if you and she can communicate, your relationship will prevail regardless of your cultural differences.  Your relationship could be so healthy that you laugh at your differences yet still respect them.

There are  some other differences that I consider an improvement over Western society.  Thus, you may be able to take the best from both worlds.