I am back HOME - from Moscow

[Mishenka]

Ken, I think she is saying that there are a lot of crooks in Moscow, street wise but not book smart.  I think these types are just gophers for the many factions of mafioso there who work the different territories.  You have to pay someone to do business in their streets,   I'm not talking about a city permit for a kiosk either.

m.

[KenC]

Ken, I think she is saying that there are a lot of crooks in Moscow, street wise but not book smart.  I think these types are just gophers for the many factions of mafioso there who work the different territories.  You have to pay someone to do business in their streets,   I'm not talking about a city permit for a kiosk either.

m.

Ah, yes, the "roof" isn't it called?
KenC

[Jazzyclassy]

Jazzy,
That is quite a negative viewpoint of things in Moscow.  Do you believe that the majority of people in the positions od power (Bosses as you say) are undeserving?
KenC

The majority yes, unfortunately but that is so , there is nothing you can portray it in another way , why would I tell a lie by telling that everyone who achieved great career did that using honest sencere method, with the help of their own industrious way and being hardworking, no way  it is so

We have russian proverb  that  By using honest and sincere true method you wont achieve any high positions

[Jazzyclassy]

No it is not only roof of some kiosk newspapers , it is happening in the large companys as well

[KenC]

The majority yes, unfortunately but that is so , there is nothing you can portray it in another way , why would I tell a lie by telling that everyone who achieved great career did that using honest sencere method, with the help of their own industrious way and being hardworking, no way  it is so

We have russian proverb  that  By using honest and sincere true method you wont achieve any high positions

Please, Jazzy, I am not accusing you of lying!  I wanted to understand your point of view.
KenC

[jj]

Nastya,  Welcome back to USA .  Sorry to hear about your father.  I was in Moscow last year several times on my way to Volgograd and  couldn't believe the subway  or the traffic.  All cars and no connecting roads or parking spaces. Marina and her daughter made it to USA in September and we are now married.  They like the countryside and fresh air just like you said.  Glad you had a safe trip.  Thanks for sharing your pictures.  I posted some on the married  forum. -jj

[Globetrotter]

Talk about Moscow's "urban sprall"...do you think it might have something to do with the mayor's wife (who was a secretary when she married him) and is now the richest woman in Russia? She owns a construction and consulting company, so just guess whose palm must be greased before the first shovel of dirt is turned or the first brick laid?  (She's worth $3.2B)  It can only get worse.

I'll never complain about "Hizzhoner" Da Mayor (Daley) again.

[Jazzyclassy]

Yeah with her as well , unfortunately it is going to be worse, and I believe everybody knows about it all.
Moscow  is very speedy messy city it depends in which area you live of course, I live in a nice area though it is still not calm it is like you always live in stress and you do not know when this stress will be over, so you sorta get used to this stress and your organism is constantly living in such tension in such frame and the main thing it is hard to break down , if you break down , give up and just your spirit is completely depressed , then it is obvious that  this city does not care about such people, it throws them away from houses on the streets they become vagabonds and so on . It is very important from the other part not to live your life till  you have no strength to carry on anymore, and at the same time if you wanna achieve things you need to work hard, so it is all about the balance between your personal harmony and your physical strength.

[Mishenka]

And  your spiritual strength as well - Jazzy,

:-))

[Gator]

Here is the local joke about the problems caused by the rapidly growing population of Moscow.

The new arrivals say that the problem is not because of them moving in; it is because the Muscovites refuse to move out.

[Misha]

Here is the local joke about the problems caused by the rapidly growing population of Moscow.

The new arrivals say that the problem is not because of them moving in; it is because the Muscovites refuse to move out.

It is always a question of perspective. I remember hanging around with some Armenians friends in Moscow a few years back. They were always complaining about the native  Muscovites. They kept telling me that the true Muscovites were lazy and did not want to work. They could get away without working because they had an apartment that they could rent out and they would live on this money. They had the privilege of being more picky when it came to which job they had to take, according to them.

They kept saying that the newcomers kept the city afloat because they were the ones who HAD to work. You would often see this: the small stores and cafes would be owned by Armenians living in Moscow and the women serving the tables would be from regions outside Moscow because they would be willing to work seven days a week for crazy hours as they had no other source of income and needed the job to survive.

In certain ways, Muscovites complaining about the migrants to the city reminds me of Americans complaining about illegal immigrants in the USA: most complain, but a lot are very happy for the cheap labor that can be readily exploited.

[Jumper]

gabaub-

well PC, or not PC-

noone wants to pay $11 for a head of lettuce
isn't that the crux of it..

[Jumper]

Anastasia,
nice to see a RW trip report

I wish my wife had posted some after her initial trips home,similar to your experiences.She never wanted to leave there, and of course still misses her family , friends and home city, but it doesnt feel like home to her anymore.
It just feels *strange* to her there now ,also the general attitudes of people being negative bothers her.Something she never noticed in her life, untill living long term somewhere else.

[Misha]

gabaub-

well PC, or not PC-

noone wants to pay $11 for a head of lettuce
isn't that the crux of it..

Yes, but they both insist on the cheap lettuce and gripe about the cheap labor that makes the cheap lettuce possible. You can't have your cake and eat it too 

[George_123]

Welcome home and thank you for sharing!! Your pictures look great!!
PS Some Russian men are still good:)

[Shadow]

It is always a question of perspective. I remember hanging around with some Armenians friends in Moscow a few years back. They were always complaining about the native  Muscovites. They kept telling me that the true Muscovites were lazy and did not want to work. They could get away without working because they had an apartment that they could rent out and they would live on this money. They had the privilege of being more picky when it came to which job they had to take, according to them. 

Now who were complaining ? The Muscovites or the Americans that moved in ? And how did they separate the native Muscovites from the ones that came from outside ? Also people who come from outside Moscow can have apartments. 

[Misha]

Now who were complaining ? The Muscovites or the Americans that moved in ? And how did they separate the native Muscovites from the ones that came from outside ? Also people who come from outside Moscow can have apartments. 

Let's take a case that I know. A daughter received an apartment from the state. Her father received an apartment from the state. The father moves in with his daughter and they rent out the apartment in downtown Moscow and the money that she gets from the rent pays all her living expenses. She can be picky about the jobs she has to do because she is not financially desperate. An immigrant from Azerbaijan living in Moscow has to find at least $100,000 to buy an apartment in Moscow. He will likely be paying a huge sum for rent. He will have to pay rent, food, bribes (to the police hassling him) and will have no choice but to find a job. He will therefore be much more willing to accept ANY job, jobs that native Muscovites who are living off of babushka's or dedushka's apartment will be unwilling to do.

Now, let's go to the United States. We have an unemployed 18-year-old living at home with good old mom and dad and you have an illegal immigrant from Mexico who has no family and no support in the United States to pay his rent and food. There is a job that is paid under the table and pays much less than minimum wage. Which person is most likely to accept the job? The 18-year-old living at home with mom and dad or the illegal immigrant who must work to feed his family? Odds are pretty good that the illegal migrant will be the one who takes the job.

In both cases you have immigrants who have fewer options when it comes to jobs and they are much more likely to work very long hours in very difficult low-paying jobs. And, in both cases, you will have people who are relatively well off complaining about all these illegal migrants doing the jobs that they themselves would never want to do or are more than happy to hire these migrants because they know they can pay them a lot less.

What I am pointing out is that there is a hypocrisy to the complaints about all the migrants/immigrants whether it is in Moscow or the United States. People complain about all these newcomes, but are more than happy to benefit from their exploitation if if means saving a buck or rouble or two.   

[Shadow]

Let's take a case that I know. A daughter received an apartment from the state. Her father received an apartment from the state. The father moves in with his daughter and they rent out the apartment in downtown Moscow and the money that she gets from the rent pays all her living expenses. She can be picky about the jobs she has to do because she is not financially desperate. An immigrant from Azerbaijan living in Moscow has to find at least $100,000 to buy an apartment in Moscow. He will likely be paying a huge sum for rent. He will have to pay rent, food, bribes (to the police hassling him) and will have no choice but to find a job. He will therefore be much more willing to accept ANY job, jobs that native Muscovites who are living off of babushka's or dedushka's apartment will be unwilling to do.

I agree with you about the fewer options for immigrants.

On the other hand here is a case that I know. A woman has inherited the apartment of her parents. She marries a guy from Azerbaijan. The guy beats her up, and kicks her out of the house. She is left with nothing. Cases like this make people complain about immigrants.

[Misha]

I agree with you about the fewer options for immigrants.

On the other hand here is a case that I know. A woman has inherited the apartment of her parents. She marries a guy from Azerbaijan. The guy beats her up, and kicks her out of the house. She is left with nothing. Cases like this make people complain about immigrants.

True, but then the question would be whether an guy from Azerbaijan is more or less likely to do such things as your average Russian born-in-Moscow Muscovite.

[Shadow]

True, but then the question would be whether an guy from Azerbaijan is more or less likely to do such things as your average Russian born-in-Moscow Muscovite.

Chances are that the born-in-Moscow Muscovites have apartments, which makes that question very hypothetical.
Immigrants anywhere come to find a better life as they have at home. And even if they have fewer options as the people who are local, their options are still better as the ones they find where they come from.
A guy with a good education, steady job and his own house will not go to Moscow to work for peanuts. A guy who has no education, no job and no property has little choices at home. Going to the big, rich territory he can work hard and get enough cash to keep his family alive back home, and in time get his property and education for his children. However he still is a guy with less education and a lower background as most of the locals.
The parallel with Mexicans is spot-on, and in my country we have similar immigrants with similar problems. Looking down on them is a natural thing for a lot of people. We should value the hard work they do, but not forget that not every person can be a doctor or lawyer. And also not forget that these people are not without the ability to stand up for themselves if needed.

A nice example. Yersterday on a game server that is English-spoken entered two Moroccans. They spoke Arabic. When they were asked to speak English as it is a gathering of all nations, their comment was : racism.  :selfharm:

[Serebro]

I don't understand why people don't like cities/towns, I think that every city/town has its own beauty and its own charm and every time I travel I normally like these places though they may not look very friendly.

[KenC]

I don't understand why people don't like cities/towns, I think that every city/town has its own beauty and its own charm and every time I travel I normally like these places though they may not look very friendly.

Ever been to Newark?
 
KenC

[Serebro]

Ever been to Newark?
 
KenC

What is that?!
Modern spelling of something or what?!

Well, if it's NYC yes, if it's an american town like Belorussian Bobruisk no.

[wxman]

It's definately not New York, but you can smell it long before you see it.  It's also where many former Mafia members get their concrete shoes.

[Gator]

And how did they separate the native Muscovites from the ones that came from outside ?

Even I can tell.   And I am not talking about Uzbeki vs. Slavs.

Yesterday we  went to Patio Pizza (more than a pizza joint; not fancy but a reasonable Italian restaurant) (BTW, for three adults and two childrenthis this cost $160 and the only alcohol were my two Staropromens). 

As we were eating dessert, a party of three arrived (two Slavic men, one Asiatic woman plus her young baby).  Both men sneaked a bottle of beer from outside in their coats.  The woman started breast feeding (yes, it is a restaurant  and babies need to eat too, but she was blatant and not discrete).  There was more.  I too do not recall seeing this when in Moscow 5 years ago.

The day before we went to a French bistro.  Many "beautiful people" including some fashionable Moscow women as I remember 5 years ago.  Yet there were a couple of  FSUW that could have easily ridden in on the back of a cabbage farm truck. 

I am not trying to be arrogant.  A man who earns money should be allowed to spend it how he pleases.  And there are plenty of places where he can spend it and spend it quickly.  Yet, the overall appearance is not of a sophisticated city that has been so dear to the people who grew up here.  It is not bad, but a sign of the times.