December men's woman (Russian history)?????

[Flyfisheron]

What in the world does this mean?  Lena and I have been communicating off and on for roughly two years, and usually between the two of us, we can figure out what each other is referring to (with my terrible Russian and her reasonably good English).  Last night, she asks me to find literature about "december men's women (russian history)" in describing herself.  I have no idea what this means.  The only thing I could think of was a 'December/spring' relationship, but that makes no sense as we are about the same age (both in our early 40's).  Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

[Mir]

In December 1825 a group of around 3000 Russian army officers and men revolted against Czar Nicholas 1 assumption of the throne. These men are called the Decemberists. They refused to swear allegiance to the new Czar and assemble in the Senate Square in St Petersburgh. The revolt was the climax of the feeling of resentment to the autocratic rule of the Czars that had been building up for many years. The officers were the creme of the Russian aristocracy who lived privileged lives. Still they felt for the suffering of the serfs and wanted reforms.
The revolt was crushed by the Czar and the officers were tried and punshed. Five of the top leaders were hanged and most of the others striped of their wealth and status were sent to the Gulags in Siberia from where few if any returned.
The wives of these men followed them into exile. These women were from a privileged background. Still they voluntarily left all that and went to Siberia. There they lived extremely harsh life side by side to their husbands year after year. The sacrifice and sense of duty of the Decemberist  wives is legendary.
My guess is that this is what your lady is referring to. I hope I am right

[Mir]

Flyfish

http://www.nomadom.net/russia/decembrists.htm

[Lily]

  and most of the others striped of their wealth and status were sent to the Gulags in Siberia from where few if any returned.
 

Mir is essentially right, however one word is not appropriate - the Gulag.
Gulags are a purely Soviet phenomenon.  At 1830x there were no such things as Gulags.

I did not read on the detailed conditions of the Decemberists and thier families life in exile, but my guess would be that the life for them and their life was still pretty decent. The only thing that they were deprived would probably be the social life in the capital cities, high end parties, fancy lifestyle, etc. They may have felt deprivation from their usual standard of life and lifelong friends.  I don't think that the exile meant humiliation for them.

The wives of those exiled aristocrats were apparently driven by their sense of duty.

[Mir]

Gulags are a purely Soviet phenomenon.  At 1830x there were no such things as Gulags.

I stand corrected, thanks. Although I was mentioning it more as a concept,still the term should be sued in the right place.
Well instead of having an army of servants they had to cook their own food and wash their own clothes, what else is hardship if not this 

[Lily]

To the above I also could add that for those women a real hardship would have been to live without their husbands at all. By that, I don't mean just love and devotion, at least not as a single reason. At that time, a woman could not live alone. A single woman was deemed to be a social and personal disaster, both in working class and nobles.

Last but not least, I think their religious views did not let them any other choice.

It appears to me that for the Decemberists wives it might have been the only acceptable choice to follow their husbands.

[Serebro]

Last night, she asks me to find literature about "december men's women (russian history)" in describing herself.

It also means that their life was full of loss and dissapointments but they preferred to be with their partners anyway.
I hope she didn't mean that she compared her life with you with what people's life was in prison...
So what did you do to her last night?!

[I/O]

I did not read on the detailed conditions of the Decemberists and their families life in exile, but my guess would be that the life for them and their life was still pretty decent. The only thing that they were deprived would probably be the social life in the capital cities, high end parties, fancy lifestyle, etc.

Lily: Pains me though it does, I would suggest you do a little reading on one the most notable but often unheralded part of Russian heroism.

Many of the Decmberists wives were women of the "Don" or of that blood extract. Women loyal beyond compare and with hearts of gold and bodies of steel. The reality for many of them was this. From a somewhat privileged lifestyle as you say, their husbands were exiled to Siberia and for many it was to a location near Irkutsk.

The women chose to follow and I don't think anyone would suggest, that trudging 5000 kms across Russia, the Urals and Siberia over nine + months spanning the dead of Siberian winter, whilst dragging sleds by hand in order to bring enough to survive, then to be greeted by the guards informing that (And they held their word) they would not be able to see, much less touch their husbands for 5 years, amounts to a slight downgrading of privileges.

IIRC 13 of these women made it through in the first group and some had considerably less than 10 fingers and 10 toes by the time they arrived. These women, largely of the "Don" are the forerunners of the strong Russian women of relatively modern history.

It is a fascinating and to an extent romantic story these women created, and to the author of this thread, if his lady is claiming similarities, he should basically understand that she is saying when it comes to loyalty, she is among the strongest of the strong and would follow her husband (If she believed fully in him) to hell and back if necessary. And........smile whilst she did it. This lady is making a very big call comparing herself with these ladies, but I suspect she knows what she is on about and knows that it is a fictitious comparison in a modern world.

When is comes to measuring wives, these women were the very best of the best. Without peer.

I/O

[Mir]

I/O

Nice post

[Lily]

I/O,

I admit, I don't know many details of decemberist women life, at least so far.  Now I try to improve myself

It is interesting that you mentioned some "Don" ancestry among them, and attribute their virtues to some southern Russian blood. You apparently mean Princess Volkonskaya and Mrs. Davydova who were Ukrainians.

I did some research and found out that there were five Russians and a few non-Russian women among them. They were not only wives but also mothers and sisters of the exiled. Therefore their behavior was apparently caused not only by spousal love.

Below I spell Russian names French. Titles are used for those who I managed to find a title so far.

The first women who went to Siberia in 1827 are Princess E. Troubetskaya (daughter of a French count; died 2 years before 1856 amnesty), Princess M. Volkonskaya (survived and returned home w husband), А.Mouravieva (not survived).

In 1827—31 those were followed by А.Davydova (Ukrainian; widowed and returned home), А.Ientaltseva (Pole; widowed and returned home), Е. Naryshkina (half-Ukrainian; survived and returned home w husband), А.Rosen (survived and returned home w husband), N. Fonvisina (survived and returned home w husband), М.Ioushnevskaya (Pole; widowed and returned home),  P. Goebl (commoner wife of Annenkov; survived and returned home) and C. Le Dantue (French commoner; wife of Ivashev; not survived).

The Russian Encyclopedia of Russian National History mentions no other women. Supposedly only they are those who we call Decemberists now. Of note, there were about 100 men exiled.

 Here is some good reading that I found online, in Russian:

http://bibliotekar.ru/zheny/index.htm

I did not read it so far, but I guess the book might follow the Soviet tendency.

Last but not least, I tend to think that what those women exhibited was a norm, especially for that time. They were not sentenced to death, weren't they?

Some Islamic countries used to have a tradition to bury the survived wife together with her dead husband. However, I have not heard so far that those women were called heroes for love.

[Misha]

It is a fascinating and to an extent romantic story these women created, and to the author of this thread, if his lady is claiming similarities, he should basically understand that she is saying when it comes to loyalty, she is among the strongest of the strong and would follow her husband (If she believed fully in him) to hell and back if necessary.

I agree with I/O that she is saying that to go live with you would be like going to hell as she is comparing a future life with you to a long exile, with no hope of return, living in a distant land far from friends and family.... True, these women loved their husbands dearly or, at least felt a strong sense of duty, religious duty, to follow their husbands to Siberia, but I would ask her why she pictures life with you in another country in such bleak terms.

[Mir]

Yes all may not be wives but they were still women (who loved the men)

Also we see that the heroism was not restricted to Russian women but extended to women of other nationalaties, once again this shows that good and bad qualities exist everywhere.

Some Islamic countries used to have a tradition to bury the survived wife together with her dead husband. However, I have not heard so far that those women were called heroes for love.

I don't know where you got that from. Although Hindus have what they cal Sati in which the wives were burnt alive with the body of their husbands (it is now a banned custom) but there is no such custom ever practiced in an Islamic, Cristian or Jewish society anytime in the history.
Please provide reference of your statement.
Thanks

[Flyfisheron]

Thanks you all so much for the interesting and informative replies. It all makes perfect sense now.  As for the negative spin some have put on it as to how terrible life would be, knowing her personality as I do, I don't think that necessarily applies.  I take it as more of a statement of commitment than anything else.  Thanks again.

[Lily]

Yes all may not be wives but they were still women (who loved the men)

Also we see that the heroism was not restricted to Russian women but extended to women of other nationalaties, once again this shows that good and bad qualities exist everywhere.

I don't know where you got that from. Although Hindus have what they cal Sati in which the wives were burnt alive with the body of their husbands (it is now a banned custom) but there is no such custom ever practiced in an Islamic, Cristian or Jewish society anytime in the history.
Please provide reference of your statement.
Thanks

Sorry but I cannot provide a reference. Is just what I used to hear from time to time, and my sources is based more on widely repeated hearsay than on reliability. If you as a knowlegeable person tell me that there were no such customs at all, I appreciate it very much and willingy withdraw my misleading information.

[Mir]

As for the negative spin some have put on it as to how terrible life would be, knowing her personality as I do, I don't think that necessarily applies.  I take it as more of a statement of commitment than anything else.  Thanks again.

I agree, afterall no one is holding a gun to her head and forcing her to correspond with you (well hopefully not!)

Most likely the negative spin was sort of in jest (leg pulling as we call it)

[Christian]

Yes all may not be wives but they were still women (who loved the men)

Also we see that the heroism was not restricted to Russian women but extended to women of other nationalaties, once again this shows that good and bad qualities exist everywhere.

I don't know where you got that from. Although Hindus have what they cal Sati in which the wives were burnt alive with the body of their husbands (it is now a banned custom) but there is no such custom ever practiced in an Islamic, Cristian or Jewish society anytime in the history.
Please provide reference of your statement.
Thanks

The bride of Christ as the human torches lighting the night up in Rome under Nero. 

Christian

[SANDRO43]

The first women who went to Siberia in 1827 are Princess E. Troubetskaya (daughter of a French count; died 2 years before 1856 amnesty), Princess M. Volkonskaya (survived and returned home w husband), А.Mouravieva (not survived).

Lily, I have some indirect personal information on a branch of the Troubetzkoy family, involving:
- Prince Paolo Troubetzkoy (born Verbania Intra, Italy, 15 February 1866 - died Verbania Pallanza, 12 February 1938), sculptor (author of Alendander III's SPB statue), see http://www.300.years.spb.ru/eng/3_spb_3.html?id=32 for more details.

Verbania on Lake Maggiore was one of my grandfather's favourite holiday destinations, and since my grandmother was the only other voluntary Russian exile in that small location, I understand there was some acquaintance between our families. I vaguely recollect my grandmother saying that Dekabrist families enjoyed some special consideration within the Russian nobility, because of "their women's strong love and staunch loyalty to their exiled husbands", or words to that effect. Their family Villa is still there, and they dedicated part of the lake-side road to him.

This may have been an overly romantic interpretation, considering your remarks:

Last but not least, I tend to think that what those women exhibited was a norm, especially for that time. They were not sentenced to death, weren't they?

Nevertheless and more to the point here, it's possible that this "legend" may have prompted Lena's reference.

BTW, IIRC, some maintain that Prince Volkonsky may have inspired Lev Tolstoy for his "Prince Andrei Bolkonsky" character in "War and Peace" .

[Christian]

To the above I also could add that for those women a real hardship would have been to live without their husbands at all. By that, I don't mean just love and devotion, at least not as a single reason. At that time, a woman could not live alone. A single woman was deemed to be a social and personal disaster, both in working class and nobles.

Last but not least, I think their religious views did not let them any other choice.

It appears to me that for the Decemberists wives it might have been the only acceptable choice to follow their husbands.

I personally think this attitude that these women exhibited was the old moral character that we foreign men find so appealing in the fair lasses of Russia and the Ukraine.  

No relationship will be without its trials and to think otherwise would be absurd and naive.  For those corrupt gold-diggers and the like the fast lane will only blow your mind.  It is a myth that we live to keep up with the Jones.  The simple life - principled, moral, normal, secure, and pious is no threat to us but something to be desire and pursued.  As Andy Warhol once said: "Everybody is famous for 15 minutes."  Well, life is longer lived than that.


Christian

[pitbull]

Sorry but I cannot provide a reference. Is just what I used to hear from time to time, and my sources is based more on widely repeated hearsay than on reliability. If you as a knowlegeable person tell me that there were no such customs at all, I appreciate it very much and willingy withdraw my misleading information.

Yes all may not be wives but they were still women (who loved the men)

Also we see that the heroism was not restricted to Russian women but extended to women of other nationalaties, once again this shows that good and bad qualities exist everywhere.

I don't know where you got that from. Although Hindus have what they cal Sati in which the wives were burnt alive with the body of their husbands (it is now a banned custom) but there is no such custom ever practiced in an Islamic, Cristian or Jewish society anytime in the history.
Please provide reference of your statement.
Thanks

The custom of sacrificing/burying the  wife/wives (together with servants and animals- often horses)when a prominent man died, used to be quite popular in different cultures. It has to do with religious beliefs-however, not practiced in any of the world/monoteistic religions. Those were the times of the Pagan societies in human history, when people believed that death only marks the start of a new life in a different world, and the dead man should be supplied with everything he could possibly need in this next life (armor, horses, money, servants and wives included). Servants and wives-killed and buried together with the man.

Scythians (about 8th-1st centuries BC) http://www.azargoshnasp.net/history/Scythians/Scythian.htm   and Incas (http://www.dennisadamsseminars.com/machu-picchu/burial.html) in Peru are to be named as examples.

BTW, Scythians are totally fascinating (especially art), and their most elaborate burial mounds (kurgans) are to be found mostly in Ukraine-for those of you dating Ukrainian women 

[Mir]

The bride of Christ as the human torches lighting the night up in Rome under Nero.

As far as I know Nero was not a Christian.

Pitbul

Yes Scythians were the original Ukrainians

[pitbull]

And on a funny note:

There is a popular saying on the topic: "She followed him to Siberia and wrecked his exile" 

[I/O]

And on a funny note:

There is a popular saying on the topic: "She followed him to Siberia and wrecked his exile" 

  Too funny....!!!

gabaub: I think you missed the point. I don't think she was suggesting life abroad would be hell, but rather, she was suggrestign she would do whatever it took to remain with the right man regardless of the trials and tribulations.

I/O

[Misha]

Too funny....!!!

gabaub: I think you missed the point. I don't think she was suggesting life abroad would be hell, but rather, she was suggrestign she would do whatever it took to remain with the right man regardless of the trials and tribulations.

I/O

I disagree. When I have heard Russian women use the term in Russian, they are saying that they love their man greatly, but they also implying that they are living somewhere where they would prefer not to be, a somewhere that they are equating with 19th century Siberia. She is in effect saying that she is willing to go for love, but that she expects her future life to be full of trials and tribulations. Moving to a new country is hard, it is even worse when you do not really want to go.

[Mir]

BTW, IIRC, some maintain that Prince Volkonsky may have inspired Lev Tolstoy for his "Prince Andrei Bolkonsky" character in "War and Peace

Very likely as ‘War and Peace’ did evolve from a novel Tolstoy had started about the Decembrist revolt.
Five of the conspirators were hanged, when this was done the ropes gave way and three of them fell into the ditch still alive. At this one of them remarked:’ What a wretched country, they don’t even know how to hang properly’
Although officially death penalty had been abolished and it had always been the law that if a man survives the hanging he cannot be hung again the Tsar ordered new ropes and they were hanged again.
120 were sent in exile to Siberia.
Volkonsky’s family was among the most powerful aristocratic families of Russia and had given immense service to Russia in military and intellectual fields. Incidentally Volkonsky was the leader of the revolt in the South and led the march on Kiev. He escaped death penalty due to the intervention of his mother and perhaps because he was Tsar’s childhood friend (although due to this the Tsar felt greatly betrayed). His punishment was 20 years of hard labour and then compulsory settlement in Siberia. Yes it looks as the gulags or penal labour camps very much existed in the Tsarist Russia and the Bolsheviks just continued the tradition. The prince was striped of all his titles and lands and reduced to the level of a commoner. The work in the mines was from dawn till dusk and they were in chains during this time.
Mariya Volkonskaya was 20 years old and had been married only two years. Among her admirers was Pushkin who called her ‘daughter of the Ganges’
Her father General Raevsky (a famous hero of 1812 who was even praised by Napoleon) did not approve of her decision to follow her husband to Siberia. Also the Tsar did not allow her to take her 11 month old son Nikolino with her. She wrote to the Tsar:’My son is happy but my husband is unhappy and he needs me more’ The reasons why she decided to go to Siberia are not clear though her sense of duty as a wife did play a major part. There was no compulsion for her to do this as she could have easily got annulment of her marriage and there would not have been any problems finding her a new husband.
Little Nikolino was left with her parents and died 13 months later. Pushkin composed an epitaph for him. In a letter to her brother Mariya writes:’In my position one can never be sure that one gives pleasure by reminding others of oneself. Nevertheless speak of me to Aleksander Sergeevich, I charge you to convey to him my gratitude for Nikolino’s epitaph. The words he found to consol maternal love are the expression of his talent and his capability for sympathy’ Mariya never got over her loss. In 1856 when amnesty was given and she was allowed to return to St Petersburg she was asked how she felt about returning to Russia. She replied: ‘The only homeland I know is the patch of grass where my son lies in the ground’

Pushkin was a friend with most of the Decembrists and it was very likely the he would have been one of them. He wrote a poem ‘In the depth of Siberian mines’ for them.

In deep Siberian mines retain
A proud and patient resignation
Your grievous toil is not in vain
Nor yet your thought’s high aspiration
Grief’s constant sister, hope, is nigh,
Shines out in dangerous black and dreary
To cheer the weak, revive the weary;
The hour will come for which you sigh,

When love and friendship reaching through
Will penetrate the bars of anguish,
The convict warrens where you languish,
As my free voice now reaches you

Each hateful manacle and chain
Will fall; your dungeons break asunder;
Outside waits freedom’s joyous wonder
As comrades give you swords again.

[Flyfisheron]

Just for clarification and to help remove some of the speculation.  The whole thing ends up relating back to a discussion we had a couple of weeks ago when talking about relocation.  I knew that Lena's preference was to locate somewhere in Europe (my profession allows me to work out of pretty well anywhere), and I had indicated to her that leaving North America just didn't fit in with my family situation as it is now.  I saw this as a 'deal breaker', and told her as much.

Since receiving clarification from the helpful people on here as to what the statement meant, we were discussing it on the phone this afternoon.  Quite simply, what she was trying to portray was that no matter where we ended up, location was secondary to acually being together.