Does adaptation cause RW to become Westernized?

[Photo Guy]

A friend of mine married a woman from Russia (Kazan) about
two years ago. Now he tells me she is totally 'Americanized',
but he didn't elaborate.

There are those who say RW are just women and women are women, etc.

I've always held the view that RW are different from AW, not entirely,
but in many ways. They have different attitudes about femininity,
social customs, etc.

Do those differences, those qualities disappear over time,
as they adapt to life in the West? I personally know of
about 6 women who are married, here in the US. They all seem
to have qualities that put them in a different 'class' from
most AW. It is difficult to list those qualities. Maybe you can help
with that. For example, these women appear to be more resilient
than AW. They seem to actually know what they want, moreso
than AW. Are they more jealous or less jealous than AW?
Are there any generalizations that we can make?
How have you seen RW change as they live their new lives in the West?  -Doug

[BC]

All I can say is that after a bit of time (little over 5 years now), the fact that my wife is Russian is the very last thing on my mind.

If it ain't so something is probably very wrong.

Has my wife changed over the years? - very much so.  Have I changed over the years? - very much so.

We're even.. - and that seems to be what counts.

I've always held the view that RW are different from AW, not entirely,
but in many ways. They have different attitudes about femininity,
social customs, etc.

Generalizations have no value within your relationship so why even deal with them?  You marry a distinct person and not generalities or average of a particular society. Your 'view' is irrelevant once the knot is tied.

One of the reasons I married my wife is that she can cook (and I mean REALLY cook) and not because she is a RW.  Fine dining is one of our big common interests.  We also both read a lot and can totally enjoy an evening together on the couch or in bed, each entwined in a good book.

Instead of looking at the differences of RW vs AW, one would be much better off looking at what common interests (excluding sex) you share.

[Turboguy]

I only have a months experince with changing when they are here.

Yes, in Russia they treat you like a king.  Once they arrive here then it is constant orders, wash the dishes, pull up your pants,  don't wear those shoes, clean your truck.  Turn out the light, take out the garbage.  I think they are really KGB agents out to control American men's minds.   Mind control has been the topic of many a cold war movie.   It exists. 

 

You know the saying.  Be careful what you wish for.

[Jet]

Do those differences, those qualities disappear over time,
as they adapt to life in the West? 

As BC suggested, many of these traits you seem to want to generalize are really personal character traits of individuals you may come in contact with; nationality is largely irrelevant. In our house the joke has often been made that Lil is too American and I'm too Russian. It's been that way from the start. I have seen her self esteem rise back to the level it was when she was living in Russia, and I do think that's a product of her acclimation to the new society. Some are threatened by a self confident woman that knows her worth, personally I'm not. I posted a pic of her in her first pair of bluejeans a while back (bought 4 years after arriving in the US), I don't see it as the beginning of the end, but as another in a long steady progression in her quest for diversification.

P.S.  Hey BC, excluding sex should never be a common interest 

[streklor]

Photo Guy:

yes, there are generalizations we can make about the differences between rw an aw, and you also asked the question of whether and how much they lose those qualities over time. 

generalization #1: russian women are much more comfortable with their femininity and finding their power in natural female behavioral traits and reactions, when approaching conflict with a man or getting what they want they do not feel the need to become men. 

but since the guys want specific cases i'll provide some

case 1: when I was 34 i had a 33 year old russian girlfriend who was already an attorney admitted to the bar here in the US before I met her (ie no use of marriage agencies etc.).  she had been in the US 6 years at that point and had just divorced her russian husband shortly after passing the bar exam (for good reasons by the way).  she was always the consumate woman: subtle demure; never approaching conflict with anger or domination: she understood a man's desire to help her was natural and benevolent the vast majority of case and not a "symptom" of patriarchy. she did not feel compelled to deny that despite her law degree you can make darn sure she wanted me to do the leading between us two.  even after 6 years and becoming an american attorney she did become american in the least.  and her previous boyfriend was about 15 years older than her

case #2: i met a 21 year old 8 years ago in st. pete. she married another guy as it turns out but I meet back up with her here and hang out with her for a while. she is a tall and big girl, but still lets me decide on everything, but then again even when we're friends I still have to pay for her whereever we are.  after 5 years she still behaves mainly the same, and she one time was absolutely amazed when she witnessed my step mother interact with me and use a loud and barking tone in her voice and body language in just the subtlest upset way...: "Don't let her speak to you like that!" she said complaining of the boorish method employed by my father's wife. sorry she just did.....and all american girls are like this.

russian women are generally more psychologically competitive than their american sisters. they have not had male leverage or voting at all ever (and the last 15 years are still crazy w/economic collapse), imagine never being able to wield male power to get what you need in society...... russian women relied on the one honest power that nature truly intended them to have: their femininity!!!  aw are hardly a scarce comparison.

on the other hand i have represented a few american guys in their divorces against russian women, and some of those women did change.

my best estimate is that 70% don't really change significantly because they get what they want using fair and natural methods.

my russian girlfriend thinks american women lame and she has no respect for them.  i asked her are you american or russian now? she said definately russian.

gotta go please ignore my typos!

[streklor]

my post was missing the NOT, this sentence:

even after 6 years and becoming an american attorney she did NOT become american in the least

[Serebro]

As BC suggested, many of these traits you seem to want to generalize are really personal character traits of individuals you may come in contact with; nationality is largely irrelevant.

I agree.
Btw, I am from Kazan, too:)

It seems to me that there are also 3 main reasons that can affect it.
1) her personal qualities you can distinguish from the very beginning from the way she acts, speaks, thinks... if she likes her country or not/if she likes the way women are treated here.
Maybe she is a feminist who is looking for the country to express her inner world...
2)the place where she lives abroad. To me it was easier to be myself in a big city than in a small town where I attracted too much attention(and it's not all about the way I looked like) and unconsiously I tried to look and act like an american as I didn't feel comfortable in my "being a RW role"///
3) the way you treat her in the west.I remember reading one story when a RW had to become a leader in the family as her husband was a very "weak" person without any special ambitions. So she had to become the head of the family and to work to support their children and ..survive...it was hard for her to survive in that American world with having "famous RW traditional qualities"...

[streklor]

just above it was written:

"Maybe she is a feminist who is looking for the country to express her inner world... "

but many girls try a little feminism with their girlfriends after having some beer or vodka, but in the morning they get sober and go back to their man!!!

Most of our feminists are lesbians.  Actually virtually all of them are lesbians.  I don't know if it would be a russian feminists idea to come here to be a lesbian, or because she could not get a lesbian friend in russia. 

regardless, really beautiful attractive feminine women can get men to do everything for them.  they don't need any special rights conferred by feminism if she comes here to express her feminism, their are other lesbians for her to do that with here!

Within Russian culture the woman is actually seen as the morally stronger bulwark of the family and the men run around acting like spoiled brats and don't restrain themselves at all.  I read russian literature in russian and often spend evening watching 1950's Soviet films.  Russian women generally don't act assertive in society but they can be equal partners with men, but they don't actually grow a penis.  Some of them come here and they are not that educated and they fall in for the same baloney that many american women have come to believe.  I know it is on a tangent but as long as we are on the subject of feminist lesbians...... see below:

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[streklor]

about 1 minute into this clip it is hilarious...

[Jumper]

PG said-

Do those differences, those qualities disappear over time,
as they adapt to life in the West?

in my experience with the RW i'm married to , and many of our mutual friends .

no.

but it's a complex question?

if you asked me if my wife has changed  and become more western , i would say- yes.
and i see this in our RW friends also.

but these changes,as you would expect,
 are more surface stuff, and not fundamental.

also ive noticed my wife seems to take the best of the west..and keep the best of her heritage..
like most people in life ,if you are open minded uyyou fgrow as a pers0on.. and if thrown into various cultures you will grow even nmore,,and take the best from each o fthem.

hard to give you specifics,,
but for a small example she was always friendly and outgoing..
but as a RW she initailly was a bit taken back *here* with  strangers being friendly or complimenting her on clothes etc (normally women)
now she has become used to it,, and may do the same in return..
something that is uncommon amoungst strangers in the FSU.

a more basic thing is she has lost most of the general negative vibe,that  many in the FSU have,but then she was always a very positive optimistic person,,perhaps a more accomidating culture for that mindset just brought it out more..it's hard to say?
*chicken or the egg* type of question ?


so i do not think the *enjoying being  fenminine, and proud of it* quality changes any ,
if at all, while other qualities may change..
of course each person is an indiviudual and will be different,,
but i see the same pattern in many of our Russian friends.


as far as *westernized* in general
heck i WANTED someone who had a fairly western outlook
,much easier for them to adapt here ,as well as far more in common with me...
in general i like a strong independent person..
my personal tastes in a partner, in this area, wouldnt change with a womans nationality..

Are they more jealous or less jealous than AW?

in my experience, less.

but you hear all kinds of other stories..
some of the stories that i have read here ,,would lead me to believe it isnt a RW trait,
mor ethat  the men involved should have simply ran far away from the obviuosly strange
and controlling  woman , regardless her nationality..
(could be said in reverse often as well i'm sure )

Are there any generalizations that we can make?

sure!
but would they be accurate for an individual..or even accurate in a general way is
the real question..?

i do think some cultural generalizations are accurate.

and in RW,, just like are groups of people,,
some are positive ,and some would be negative.

some are amusing, some endearing
and some frustrating..
on both sides! lol


doug in my opinion..
its still just up to the one person you are involved with,,
and as BC mentioned the nationality,, or cultural traits tend to mean less over time,, and FAR less with any lenght of time.

my wife is still distinctly russian.
we are a good match, and her cultural background may directly effect it.
and mine probably does as well.
these cultures and our backgrounds directly shaped who we are as individuals ?
there is no denying that?
neither of us is likely to lose those fundamentals that drew us together.
but as a couple they do tend to simply blend  ..
If i didnt have my western, and families, background, I may not have the same traits that are important to her in husband....

would i lose those important triats,, if living and working in the FSU for 5 years? not likely.

would i change a bit and become more eastern..in some other less important ways?
 very likely.

i think its the same for RW coming here...

[Photo Guy]

Interesting thoughts. Thanks. I agree with y'all, that generalizations
aren't practical concepts that you can use in a relationship.
Individuals vary greatly, and all of the RW that I have met or
known are very different persons.
   When she poured Thousand Island salad dressing
on her spaghetti, I chuckled and asked her if that's what people do
in Ukraine. She looked at me indignantly and said,
'No, this is what I do!'

[I/O]

Continual exposure creates a likeness or an immunity, depending on the person. If one chooses not to fit into their surroundings, but remain there, the surroundings will fit them in and reshape them a little whether they like it or not, or they will leave.

At this very early time, I am watching my wife fit neatly into her surroundings and by and large, she slides under the radar, but when it comes to matters of real personal integrity or importance, she is, if anything, becoming more rooted in her origins. I wouldn't have it any other way. I married her for who she is with a big part of who she is being Russia.

Nevertheless, in spite, or perhaps because of her Russian pride, she is quick to pick the best out of the local scene and adopt/adapt to these things. No specifics, simply little things. If she has the patience to stick it out with me (More than any sane woman should be expected to do) I have little doubt from what I can see thus far, she will always be Russian to the very boot straps, but she will become what we fondly call here a "New Australian".

I dunno if it is the type of people who come to this country or the effect this country has on them, but it is only a handful who remain foreigners and the rest quickly become "New Australians". I find myself encouraging her "Russianness" as I think it puts her in a class apart from many locals, I don't say above or below, simply "apart".

P/G your thread is an interesting one and I think many guys ponder this question in the early stages and perhaps it comes back to (I think it was Einstein who said) men marry women hoping they will never change, whilst women marry men hoping they will. Invariably both are disappointed.

I/O

[BillyB]

Yes, in Russia they treat you like a king.  Once they arrive here then it is constant orders, wash the dishes, pull up your pants,  don't wear those shoes, clean your truck.  Turn out the light, take out the garbage. 

No kidding. Those RW expect their man to go to work for 8 hours a day, when you come home, they'll make you work for another 8 hours, and when it's time for bed, they'll again make you work another 8 hours every friggin day!

[KenC]

A friend of mine married a woman from Russia (Kazan) about
two years ago. Now he tells me she is totally 'Americanized',
but he didn't elaborate.

There are those who say RW are just women and women are women, etc.

I've always held the view that RW are different from AW, not entirely,
but in many ways. They have different attitudes about femininity,
social customs, etc.

Do those differences, those qualities disappear over time,
as they adapt to life in the West? I personally know of
about 6 women who are married, here in the US. They all seem
to have qualities that put them in a different 'class' from
most AW. It is difficult to list those qualities. Maybe you can help
with that. For example, these women appear to be more resilient
than AW. They seem to actually know what they want, moreso
than AW. Are they more jealous or less jealous than AW?
Are there any generalizations that we can make?
How have you seen RW change as they live their new lives in the West?  -Doug

Doug,
There are many ways in which Lena has become "Americanized."  She dresses more like an American only better.  She may now wear jeans and a T shirt, but she is always impeccably groomed and has her make up in place.  She would never leave the house dressed poorly.  Maybe not high heels and a short skirt, but dressed well none the less.

Her Russian accent has all but disappeared, but her Russian soul in completely in tact.  She is the most resilient than any woman I have ever met.  She is a strong, intelligent and dedicated woman with high morals and principals.  That hasn't changed one little bit in the 8 years she has been here in America.
KenC

[Vaughn]

I'd say this week my wife's become Ecuadorianized - we're
having a few South American gals over and there's a huge
beef tongue on the counter defrosting. I won't be partaking.

[jj]

Vaughn- I don't blame you for not partaking in that. Maybe you can get them to take the left overs with them     I pigged out for thanksgiving, and have asked Marina to put me on her borsch soup diet, (with chicken), to help me lose the weight.   

As far as becoming westernized, she has only been here 2 months but dresses nicely whether jeans, dress, or slacks.  Make-up always on before going out.  Strangers in the stores remark how they like her boots.  She is running out of her russian cosmetics and is slowly finding some american products, but I know she will load up some to bring back next trip to Russia

She is a careful shopper and looks for good deal on nice , but not cheap looking clothes.  They have to fit "just right"!   She really helps me watch the over-spending, and I appreciate that.  She will not buy something just to have it, or because it was on sale if she does not need it.  I couldn't ask for a better wife.

[Vaughn]

jj, I thnk you and KenC have hit the bullseye with your observances of
their Westernization. They learn the logistics and habits of American
ways - yet retain the best of their FSU upbringing. My Elvira fits in here
quite nicely, and if nothing else sets a shining example for American ladies.

She's also the best teacher I've ever had regarding thrift.

[ScottinCrimea]

I'd say this week my wife's become Ecuadorianized - we're
having a few South American gals over and there's a huge
beef tongue on the counter defrosting. I won't be partaking.

My wife spotted a beef tongue in the supermarket last week and tried to convince me to buy it and throw it in the slow cooker, but I delicately steered her to the roasts.  At least the Ecuadorians didn't bring their national delicacy - guinea pig.

[I/O]

My wife spotted a beef tongue in the supermarket last week and tried to convince me to buy it and throw it in the slow cooker, but I delicately steered her to the roasts.  At least the Ecuadorians didn't bring their national delicacy - guinea pig.

Kinda made me smile this one. I am not a fussy eater but there is a couple of things I have always drawn the line at, one of them being Liver or Kidney. Mine suggested the other day we should buy some for her to cook in some special way for me. I told her that I have always had a policy of never eating anything that has bee peeed with or peeed on. Kinda got a interesting reaction but I note there is no liver or kidney in the fridge or freezer.

I/O

[Flyfisheron]

My wife spotted a beef tongue in the supermarket last week and tried to convince me to buy it and throw it in the slow cooker, but I delicately steered her to the roasts.

Tongue... the ONLY thing I won't eat.  Could never figure out just who is tasting whom....

[Kuna]

Please... no more posts about food....

Breakfast was 9 hours ago and I still feel full to my esophagus. 

I just had a phone call asking me to bring some extra groceries home because Mama is preparing something special.  I don't know if I can go on... has anyone with medical training got tips on becoming bulemic?

[I/O]

Please... no more posts about food....

has anyone with medical training got tips on becoming bulemic?

Read some of the hype on introduction sites. That's enough to make anyone...........

I/O

[Christian]

Please... no more posts about food....

Breakfast was 9 hours ago and I still feel full to my esophagus. 

I just had a phone call asking me to bring some extra groceries home because Mama is preparing something special.  I don't know if I can go on... has anyone with medical training got tips on becoming bulemic?

But shopping when one is hungry is a sure fire way to spend more money. 

As far as bulemia goes (quite the serious illness) I/O has come up with another brillant idea thanks to the software manufactures.  See above.

Christian

[Christian]

A friend of mine married a woman from Russia (Kazan) about
two years ago. Now he tells me she is totally 'Americanized',
but he didn't elaborate.

There are those who say RW are just women and women are women, etc.

I've always held the view that RW are different from AW, not entirely,
but in many ways. They have different attitudes about femininity,
social customs, etc.

Do those differences, those qualities disappear over time,
as they adapt to life in the West? I personally know of
about 6 women who are married, here in the US. They all seem
to have qualities that put them in a different 'class' from
most AW. It is difficult to list those qualities. Maybe you can help
with that. For example, these women appear to be more resilient
than AW. They seem to actually know what they want, moreso
than AW. Are they more jealous or less jealous than AW?
Are there any generalizations that we can make?
How have you seen RW change as they live their new lives in the West?  -Doug

Please define 'Westernization.'

Christian