Self defense measures for visitors to Ukraine

[Journeyman]

My wife, who is patiently waiting in Ukraine for my K-3 petition to be processed, is quite worried about my next visit -- due to what seems to be a noticeable increase in random (often opportunistic), violent crime (particularly assault and robbery) and, especially attacks by groups of young men (often semi-intoxicated) against other local men (of any age, old or young).  She is advising me that it is in no way safe to go out at night anymore, even just to the small grocer on the block.  I've heard the same from others from her city also (though I don't think her city, pop. 300K, is at all unique in Ukraine). 

My wife is telling me to be thinking in terms of self-defense measures.  My reply to her is that we should first do what is possible to avoid the risks and to avoid potentially dangerous situations.  She replies that such crimes are becoming epidemic, and may be unavoidable.  She has witness two horrible attacks herself in just the last 2 months, and has first hand reports of other attacks from several recent victims.  She said that the police are almost entirely non-responsive. 

So, I am coming to this board now with this question -- What are the sensible measures available for self-defense in Ukraine.  My wife advises against a handgun, as she says any foreigner employing such a weapon will simply be put in jail for years, with not an ounce of justice being applied to the situation.  Any alternatives?

1.  Pepper spray?
2.  A taser?
3.  Other?

Are any such items illegal in Ukraine?  Would customs confiscate them?  I brought a set of kitchen knives through customs last June as a present for her family, and they were not an issue, even after my bags were x-rayed.  I am sure an x-ray revealing a handgun would probably be different.  So, how about the non-lethal means of self-defense -- pepper spray, taser, etc.? 

I am probably like many of you reading this.  I've been to Ukraine a dozen times, and never had a problem.  I've walked outside alone late at night in Kiev, Odessa, Dnepropetrovsk, and elsewhere, and never had a problem.  However, I have also been told by locals that I was quite foolish.  So, I'm taking this seriously now.

Any thoughts on the subject?  Thanks in advance your your feedback.

Journeyman

[acrzybear]

A foreigner bringing a handgun into another country is not a good idea.  FSU (and most European countries) are very antigun and if caught usually end in prison time and expulsion from that country. Also Mace/Pepper spray is not allowed on airplanes (due to pressurized contents possibly erupting and contanimating the interior of the aircraft and making everyone miserable).

 You could pack a folding knife in your suitcase, but remember that with a knife you have to get close and personal. I would advise against a knife unless you have had some type of training or experience (ie hunting) with one, knives can be a bloody affair and also used against you.

 Be cautious just as you would in the States;

1) Be aware of your surroundings
2) Stay in well lighted public areas
3) Don't attract attention to yourself (flashing cash, talking loudly, etc...)
4) There is safety in numbers

  Journeyman

  Just use common sense, I would say rule #1 is the most important.  Listen to that little voice inside your head, if you get the uneasy feeling's attention to it.

  I've been to numerous countries following the above rules and have never had any problems (of course it doesn't hurt that I'm 6'5" and 275lbs)

[BillyB]

My fiancee says she always travel with others at night but rarely goes out at night unless she has too. It could be dangerous at night since the drunks are rampant and less cops patrolling. That is a problem within most of the FSU.

journeyman, if you choose to bring a knife or any weapon with you to a fight, understand if you lose, you may lose your life.

[ScottinCrimea]

I lived in Simferopol for two years and never once felt threatened.  I lived in the city center and was out and about at all hours of the day and night.  Of course there are certain parts of town that I wouldn't want to be in alone after dark but that's true of any city anywhere.  What I don't understand is why so many people think a large city in the FSU is more dangerous than a large city in the US or western Europe.

I don't know where your wife lives, but I'm not hearing anything in the Ukrainian news or from my friends and family back in Ukraine about any such increase in violence there, so maybe this is just a local problem rather than a national phenomenon.

Don't even think about having a gun in your possession in Ukraine as a foreigner unless you want to do inside research on Ukrainian prisons, and understand that pepper spray or a taser probably wouldn't dissuade a group of drunk youths and you stand a good chance of them taking it away and using it on you.

Just relax and behave like you would in any major city, avoiding situations that might get you in trouble.

[alantodd]

I have visited Ukraine 18 times in the past 16 months.  Never have I felt not safe from the local people.  I have been all over Ukraine to.  Now I am always with my fiance.  But she is 174cm and 49kg so maybe she scares the no neck men away.

If you bring a gun or a knife to fight, expect to have your personal will updated on how you want to be buried. A lot of men in Ukraine have military backgrounds and know how to fight.   

I would recommend a personal bodyguard.  They run around $200 a day.  Someone I know uses one mainly because his fiance's ex boyfriend is in the mafia and he thinks there still together.

[wxman]

There is no doubt the police are of little help in Ukraine. They are good for one thing, shaking down drivers. Only once in Ukraine did I see someone getting assaulted. I was in a cab, and driving by an intersection, one man was stomping a guy who was on the ground, while another was watching and drinking. People just passed on by like nothing was happening. Even a policeman nearby did nothing. The taxi driver told me it was likely a bunch of drunks fighting. Other than that I have not felt threatened. The taxi driver and I are now friends, and whenever I visit my fiance we usually have him drive us around at night. Believe me, no one is going to mess with him.

If out at night, go with others, don't carry a lot of cash, and don't carry your credit cards with you at night. If you are confronted, give them the money. It's not worth getting beat over $30 or $40.

[Journeyman]

I appreciate the thoughtful answers provided by the gentlemen who have joined on this thread.  I am gratified that many are joining me in voicing that the best strategy is simply to avoid risky situations.  Unfortunately, that is not always possible.  Hence, my question to the forum regarding experience with or knowledge of alternative self-defense devices.  Of course, no such items work well when you are confronted by a group of predators.

I am a little dismayed that a number of men here want it known that that they feel quite safe walking around in Ukraine, at night or otherwise.  First, I really believe that that kind of talk could be drawing a few who are new to travel in Ukraine into a false sense of security.  I am about to travel to Ukraine for the 12th time.  My cumulative time in Ukraine is over 26 weeks (a full half-year).  The advice and perspective I receive comes not only from my wife, but also from many other native Ukrainians (men and women) whom I've known for 3 to 5 years. 

Beyond that, let me be specific.  I am not talking about strolling out on a summer's night to the touristy areas on Kryschatik or on Deribosovskaya or on Karl Marx Avenue in Dnepropetrovsk, when the locals often fill the streets and keep the atmosphere almost festive.  Instead, walking just 2 to 4 blocks away from such areas (such as on one's way to a rented apartment) can quickly get one into a very different environment.  Especially, it seems to me that the alcohol-related provocations and predation involving younger Ukrainian men (16 to 30) -- usually small groups of them -- is of a quite different order than that seen in the US. 

In sum, in my view, the best policy and practice is to follow the lead of the locals, and to note their advice to us visitors.  I usually find their ideas and behaviors to be quite consistent among themselves.  It is the opinions and practices of us visitors that seem to differ more widely.

Journeyman

[bgreed]

Journeyman my wifes city is Sumy so I have spent a fair amount of time in the non touristy kind of places.  If you know Sumy it is deffinately not on the destinaton intinerary.

My wife has not said anything about an increase in assaults there.  More that it is not a good idea to be out walking around after about 10 at night.  But I think that for the exception of the more well traveled areas this in general good advice anywhere.

WHen it comes to personal defense items anything you can legally take on a plane it pretty much going to require you to get up close and very personal with you opponent.  I do carry a folding lockback with me everywhere even here in the states.  BUT I have had extenssive training in how to use it as well as years of practical martial arts training.  So I can't recomend this to everyone.

Since your saying that these attacks are group affairs your best bet is to be aware of who is in your immediate vicinity and how they are behaving.  If something looks or feels fishy leave the area.  These types of gangs have turf that they prefer to opperate on.  once you leave their prefered area it can be much safer.  If you miss the cues and something starts to go down run into the largest crowd of people you can find or get yourself into a position where it's very difficult for them to come at you more than one at a time.  Then it is a matter of going for the destruction of joints.  If they can't stand they can't fight.  However this is all only from training that I have had and my own personal experience not a recomendation.

If you want to see how spetznaz is trained just go to youtube and search for Sytema.

[groovlstk]

Especially, it seems to me that the alcohol-related provocations and predation involving younger Ukrainian men (16 to 30) -- usually small groups of them -- is of a quite different order than that seen in the US. 

I would also agree w/this. I've witnessed street violence three times in my travels to Ukraine/Russia, in every instance the instigators were groups of young men + alcohol.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I have lived here in Odessa for over 9 months now.  I don't live in the city center and never had a problem.  Actually one problem and they were the police. 

You just need to be aware of your surroundings.  It is that simple.  If you see a group of men than don't walk through them.  Walk around them or take a alternative route.  At night, I avoid certain areas like little neighborhood bars where I see people hanging outside. 

This would be the same advice you would get in any big city even in the western countries.



Thomas

[LiveFromUkraine]

If you want to see how spetznaz is trained just go to youtube and search for Sytema.

I almost took some training in Systema while I was here.  Unfortunately I didn't have time because of work.  It is something I want to train in and will probably come back for several months just for that.


Thomas

[BC]

All I can suggest is the same rules I use when traveling to any foreign city:

1. Don't walk alone at night in areas you don't know well.
2. Keep excess cash and cards at home, only carrying what you need.
3. If they ask for it, just hand it over, turn out your pockets and move on.. - even if only one, consider yourself as outnumbered.. there are three more around the corner.

We ran into a somewhat similar situation in Ukraine.. My wife gave them all kinds of hell and then we ended up sitting around drinking beer... - If a kiosk is nearby might just consider taking orders.. LOL

[BillyB]

Journeyman, in mentally preparing you for this journey, I have submitted various videos for you to watch and yes, fights do happen daytime in the FSU. My favorite video is the first one. You will see vodka lace fights at a wedding, fights by invitation only, fights by Russian politicians at a session, cops restoring order by administering beatings with extreme prejudice, mass hysteria, good ole fashion classic a$$ whippings, and senseless beatings in it's purest forms. Enjoy.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weCumeCiEUc[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHkKglkUxws[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZGaaqH2o6I[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq2WQvreYlQ[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=051oVd7uMqE[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQSmc1o79hc[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnfpwW6sMkc[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezjWM-Fw-YI&feature=related[/youtube]

[docetae]

My wife, who is patiently waiting in Ukraine for my K-3 petition to be processed, is quite worried about my next visit -- due to what seems to be a noticeable increase in random (often opportunistic), violent crime (particularly assault and robbery) and, especially attacks by groups of young men (often semi-intoxicated) against other local men (of any age, old or young).  She is advising me that it is in no way safe to go out at night anymore, even just to the small grocer on the block.  I've heard the same from others from her city also (though I don't think her city, pop. 300K, is at all unique in Ukraine). 

My wife is telling me to be thinking in terms of self-defense measures.  My reply to her is that we should first do what is possible to avoid the risks and to avoid potentially dangerous situations.  She replies that such crimes are becoming epidemic, and may be unavoidable.  She has witness two horrible attacks herself in just the last 2 months, and has first hand reports of other attacks from several recent victims.  She said that the police are almost entirely non-responsive. 

So, I am coming to this board now with this question -- What are the sensible measures available for self-defense in Ukraine.  My wife advises against a handgun, as she says any foreigner employing such a weapon will simply be put in jail for years, with not an ounce of justice being applied to the situation.  Any alternatives?

1.  Pepper spray?
2.  A taser?
3.  Other?

Are any such items illegal in Ukraine?  Would customs confiscate them?  I brought a set of kitchen knives through customs last June as a present for her family, and they were not an issue, even after my bags were x-rayed.  I am sure an x-ray revealing a handgun would probably be different.  So, how about the non-lethal means of self-defense -- pepper spray, taser, etc.? 

I am probably like many of you reading this.  I've been to Ukraine a dozen times, and never had a problem.  I've walked outside alone late at night in Kiev, Odessa, Dnepropetrovsk, and elsewhere, and never had a problem.  However, I have also been told by locals that I was quite foolish.  So, I'm taking this seriously now.

Any thoughts on the subject?  Thanks in advance your your feedback.

Journeyman

I have seen such attack last october in Kiev, I was walking with my girlfriend at night near a park during this time. They are around 20, rushing out metro or underground way.

They looked at us  and get away very fast (I am 34, 6ft6, 220lbs, my girlfriend 6ft) ) to target a young teenager, but he was able to run away very quickly.

What I have understood : They target mainly other teenagers, they are not organized, and if you have basic rules of self defense, you can get them away very fast. I had some experience of that when I was living in French suburb near Paris (you know the place where cops did not want to go and where there is always cars burning...).

Rule 1: when you see that, do not look scared, continue to walk even if they run in your direction and look at them in eyes.
Rule 2: If you are targeted, use one as armor against other (if you are 5ft5, not sure this is easy)
Rule 3: Hit only to be very painful : eyes, throat, nose...
Rule 4: SCREAM !!! the famous Kiai... try to look at a kendo fight on youtube, you will understand what I mean.

If you have a bag, use it to protect you from hits. They will not try to fight if you resist too long...