LANGUAGE !

[SANDRO43]

A new thread to discuss general language-related topics. 

[Jazzyclassy]

Sandro since you are so linguistically educated help me to translate the idioms

for my open lesson

rough and ready is it like crude and lacking sophistication or what?

cool calm and collected what it can mean all together?

Government Ministers always pass the buck if they are challenged about poverty.(blame somebody else?)

I would really appreciate this

and you remember about the word Blue, it really can mean sad I found it in my online dictionary

though the words are in russian here 

http://www.multitran.ru/c/m.exe?l1=1&s=blue&%CF%EE%E8%F1%EA=%CF%EE%E8%F1%EA

[pk-uk]

A new thread to discuss general language-related topics. 

It wasn't the dipthong that I couldn't understand, Sandro, but the  statement "the Limey-preferred -ou- .....  usually replaced by -o- on your side of the Atlantic, is NEVER in the 1st syllable of an English word"

My examples seemed to contradict that.

PK

[Photo Guy]

Sandro since you are so linguistically educated help me to translate the idioms

for my open lesson

rough and ready is it like crude and lacking sophistication or what?

cool calm and collected what it can mean all together?

Government Ministers always pass the buck if they are challenged about poverty.(blame somebody else?)

I would really appreciate this

and you remember about the word Blue, it really can mean sad I found it in my online dictionary

though the words are in russian here 

http://www.multitran.ru/c/m.exe?l1=1&s=blue&%CF%EE%E8%F1%EA=%CF%EE%E8%F1%EA

Cool , calm, and collected means emotionally calm and in control of one's thoughts,
with composure.

Pass the buck means avoid the problem and give it to someone else to
deal with or solve.

I don't know what rough and ready means.

[pk-uk]

Jazzy - my wife was recommended the following:

Idioms - dictionary for learners of English   Published by Oxford English (http://www.out.com/elt) ISBN 0-19-431545-2.

She also found Collin's Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs ISBN 0-00-713402-9 useful.

Hope this Helps,

Paul

[SANDRO43]

Sandro since you are so linguistically educated help me to translate the idioms for my open lesson

Jazzy, this thread was not meant as first-aid station for your academic duties. However, if I can earn your respect with a little help (although not by giving you Russian equivalents, I'm not fluent enough for that, maybe Nastya can)...

rough and ready is it like crude and lacking sophistication or what?

I'd say it could be best translated by improvised, i.e. something prepared hastily to face an unforeseen need.

cool calm and collected what it can mean all together?

They are really a string of synonyms, and repetition is meant to reinforce the concept.

Government Ministers always pass the buck if they are challenged about poverty.(blame somebody else?)

This expression means passing responsibility on to someone else (thereby 'washing one's hands' of Pontius Pilatus's fame). US President Harry Truman (1945–1953) was a folksy type and popularized such phrases as "The buck stops here" (meaning he bore the ultimate responsibility), and "If you can't stand the heat, you better get out of the kitchen."

and you remember about the word Blue, it really can mean sad I found it in my online dictionary

I don't recall saying that 'blue' does not means 'sad'. IIRC, I also attached a 'blues' to confirm that.

In addition to what pk-uk suggests, I would also advise you to get yourself a copy of Roget's Thesaurus of Synonyms & Antonyms. My old boss used to say that one can gauge a translator's proficiency by the tools he uses:

1. Bilingual vocabulary (beginners)
2. Foreign dictionary (professionals)
3. Thesaurus (masters )

[pk-uk]

I don't know what rough and ready means.

1, simple and prepared quickly but good enough for a particular situation, as in  I can give you a rough and ready cost of the work now and a more detailed estimate later

2. (of a person) not very polite, educated or fashionable, as in his approach was rather rough and ready, but he was very popular with his customers

Courtesy of the Oxford Dictionary of Idioms.

PK

[SANDRO43]

the  statement "the Limey-preferred -ou- .....  usually replaced by -o- on your side of the Atlantic, is NEVER in the 1st syllable of an English word" My examples seemed to contradict that.

PK, I replied in the other thread, but briefly here: OU at the beginning of a word is never replaced by a U as Gator surmised, therefore 'out-' cannot be a Limey version of  US 'ut-'.

[Jazzyclassy]

Thank you thank you thank you  all of you guys, am sorry if that was not the aim of this thread to help people (

but thank you so much I really need this info for my opened lesson , tomorrow will be the first day of me teaching the 2 year students, I hope I wont fail ahahahah (just a hysterical laughter )

Sandrito I 've always respected you 

[SANDRO43]

Although maybe there is a connotation of comparison in 'utmost'

From a morphological point of view, 'utmost' is a superlative rather than a comparative. Let's consider some usage of and synonyms for these UT descendants:

- Utter = 'You are an utter fool' (total, complete, hopeless, etc.)
- Utmost = 'Therefore you deserve my utmost contempt' (total, complete, highest, deepest, absolute, etc.)

Since their original semantic 'slots' for external were taken over by their OUT- cousins, they appear to have both lost their morphological connotation (becoming independent adjectives) and moved on to wider pastures of meaning.

still i have a feeling that there is less of it than just stating the fact that it is 'the best' or 'the highest'. Several people can have my utmost respect, but it doesn't mean that others are not respected by me.

From a semantic point of view, this borders on the psychological/philosophical: is saying someone/something is 'tops' an implied/subconscious comparison with others that are not, or not ?

[SANDRO43]

Thank you thank you thank you  all of you guys, am sorry if that was not the aim of this thread to help people (

Jazzy, I was just 'pulling your leg' (see 'tease') .

[Mir]

Rough and ready: Something that can be prepared or procured quickly, is simple yet effective in doing a certain job.

[Gator]

Sandro,

You enjoy linguistics and you are good at it.  I recall that you did utter such over dinner.

[SANDRO43]

Sandro, You enjoy linguistics and you are good at it.  I recall that you did utter such over dinner.

IIRC, it was more of an avalanche than an utterance, and you're a good listener (or either much too polite to object, or too engrossed in your Gavi de' Gavi to mind ).

[AnastassiaAsh]

Ah, Sandro43! If you were only twice younger!   

[AnastassiaAsh]

Jazzy, check these links for idioms

http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/

http://www.idiomconnection.com/

http://www.learn-english-today.com/idioms/idioms_proverbs.html

http://home.freeuk.net/russica2/idiom.html  IDIOMATIC ENGLISH - RUSSIAN EQUIVALENTS

[SANDRO43]

Ah, Sandro43! If you were only twice younger!   

Nastya, what would have in mind for a 32 y.o. Sandro ?

I could always dye my hair and have some plastic surgery performed, if it'll help

[Jazzyclassy]

Thank you so much Nastya and Sandro ,my lesson was so successful

thank you for the idioms links

[AnastassiaAsh]

Nastya, what would have in mind for a 32 y.o. Sandro ?

I could always dye my hair and have some plastic surgery performed, if it'll help

Well, you would definitely have my attention with all this diphthong and such talk....   :heartafire:  :angel:  Only you will have to help me with some Italian lessons. 

[KenC]

Who woulda thunk a thread titled "Language" would be X rated?
Is it getting hot in here?  Or is it just me?
KenC

[SANDRO43]

Had I thought that diphthongs could be such lady-killers, I would have used them MUCH earlier  (add a new item to the list of FSUW's unfathomable mentality quirks), but I'll certainly try diphthongs out with my future FSUW contacts .

Alas, Fate is against me, Nastya is already married (our age-gap just a MINOR inconvenience, as TG/VWRW have shown), and Italian lessons would have been no problem at all, I just LOVE teaching (as some of you may already have guessed ). And I also have a weak spot for Sagittarians (probably because it's my Ascendant, too ).

KenC, I'd say that an X-rating is unfortunately unapplicable, in this case   .

[AnastassiaAsh]

It is definitely some of my 'killer's. 

And I also have a weak spot for Sagittarians (probably because it's my Ascendant, too ).

KenC, it is not just you!  You see, this was inevitable. How can Sandro and me go against the stars? Impossible...  Sandro, this is even deeper than I thought.        ..........kidding

[SANDRO43]

Who woulda thunk a thread titled "Language" would be X rated?

In a thread titled "Language", this is definitely F-rated .

P.S.: a small phonetic sample for you .

[SANDRO43]

THE HAPHAZARD SPELLING OF ENGLISH WORDS
(Ref.: 6 different pronunciations of the -OU- diphthong in http://www.russianwomendi...=6363.msg115864#msg115864)

One is never totally sure how to pronounce a written English word. Whereas in other languages, particularly the Latin-derived, there is often a 1-to-1 correspondence between what is written and how it is pronounced (with the exception of French where this is often 1-to-Many, e.g. the sound 'PARL' can be written either as "parle", "parles", or "parlent"), the situation in English is more of the Many-to-Many type, most probably due to historical reasons.

Germanic people, sterling fellows though they may have been, never went in too much for culture and were mostly illiterate, even in their upper classes: the Frankish king Charlemagne (742-814), crowned "Imperator Augustus" by Pope Leo III on 25 December 800 in an attempted revival of the Roman Empire in the West, used a stencil or a monogram to sign his name on his laws and edicts; the Angli, Saxons and Jutes who invaded and settled in Celtic, Roman-influenced but abandoned Britannia in the Vth century, were even less inclined to read/write.

However, exposure to the remnants of Roman culture started to slowly change this (particularly on the continent and in France), and Christianisation also played an important role (VIIth to IXth century in Britain), though progress was mostly confined to monastic circles (moreover where Latin was the language prevalently used). 

Before literacy in "Old English" or Latin became widespread, the Runic alphabet (futhorc/futhark) was used for inscriptions. Later, a form of Latin script was used with a few letters derived from the futhork. Anglo-Saxon literary works include genres such as epic poetry, hagiography, sermons, Bible translations, legal works, chronicles, riddles, and others. In all there are about 400 surviving manuscripts, the most famous among them being the poem Beowulf and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, a collection of tales on early English history. Cædmon's Hymn from the 7th century is the oldest surviving written text in English.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxons).

Not a major literary effort, over a period of some 700 years.

Therefore, the cultural condition of Britain was not particularly shining when Guillaume, Duke of Normandy, decided in 1066 to get himself a kingdom, invaded Britain, defeated the last Saxon King of England (Harold Godwinson) in the battle of Hastings, and become known thereafter as William the Conqueror. This double regal/ducal crown also meant that the Norman Kings were obsessed with conquering the rest of France as well for quite a long time (more than a hundred years, from 1337 to 1453), until they finally had to give up the idea.

When the Normans became more concerned with their British dominion and the language of its population, they tackled the problem of writing down its alien sounds with a strong Latin/French bias, and this produced the resulting mess.

The Latin/French influence is also apparent in the English vocabulary, where it constitutes the upper crust (the majority of the 'cultured' words) of a pie with a thick Germanic base (the majority of the day-to-day, 'practical' words), as has long been acknowledged: e.g. US linguist William D. Whitney remarked in his "The Life and Growth of Language" (1875) that almost 70% of dictionary entries are of 'classical' origin, though obviously not being as frequently used in day-to-day speech/writing (usage).

This also explains why English-speaking Latins may sound more 'learned': given the availability of perfectly acceptable English words that are similar to those from their own languages, they will naturally lean on them, preferring to use, say, 'intelligent' rather than 'bright' or 'clever'.

One aspect of the English lexicon that offers some interesting sociological considerations, showing what were the prevailing Norman concerns when dealing with their local subjects, regards some food terms:

Animal Meat    French
Ox        Beef      Boeuf
Calf      Veal       Veau
Sheep   Mutton   Mouton
Pig       Pork       Porc

In other words, the Norman rulers cared much more about the correct designation of what would appear on their tables, than on their rural origin/production .

[SANDRO43]

DENOTATION vs. CONNOTATION

In an earlier post elsewhere, Anastassia used a linguistical term:

Although maybe there is a connotation of comparison in 'utmost'

that may shed further light on why it may be so difficult to use/understand properly the meaning of utterances in a foreign language, and thus represent a major obstacle for FSUW adapting to their new environments.

There are several ways to explain those two title words, but to make it simple, a word's:
- Denotation is its 'immediate', almost-universally acknowledged meaning.
- Connotation is/are the meaning(s) associated with/implied in it, largely culturally- and personally-dependent.

For example, in the case of anchor:
Denotation = an implement used to secure vessels to the seabed.
Connotation = stability, safety, security, lack of motion, impediment, obstacle, etc.

Depending on an individual's experience or mood, an anchor may be viewed as positive ("You're the anchor of my life ") or negative ("Being with you it's like trying to walk around with a 1-ton anchor attached to my leg "), or neutral.

I think I already related how S. I. Hayakawa, in his "Language in Action" (1941), highlighted the difficulties of UN translators in trying to avoid the use of "emotionally-charged" words which could create needless procedural debates in the Assembly.

Cultures change and evolve, and so do word connotations over time. They are also the main source for metaphors, and therefore the major sustenance of poetry, which explains why it is almost impossible to translate .