LANGUAGE !

[OlgaH]

6. Sudar/sudarynya/baryshnya/etc.+family name and Bы (with initial acquaintances/'normal' strangers):  госпожа Каренина, Вы знаете...

Sudar'/sudarynya and gospodin/gospozha is two different forms

To a stranger:
Excuse me, please, sudar', what time is it?

(to a young woman) Baryshnya, How do I get to the Library?

Formal introducing:
Gospodin Vronsky, let me introduce you to gospozha Karenina.

9. Name+patronymic+family name and Bы (with 'highly-respected' strangers):  Анна Аркадиевна Каренина, Вы знаете...

In Russia a name+patronymic+family name usually is used only at formal introducing.

It is really doesn't matter if you respect a person or not, but if that person is not your close friend and more over much older than you, or he /she was introduce you formally - name+patronymic, you should address to that person using his/her name with patronymic.

Students in Russia address themselves to their teacher using the teacher's name with patronymic. Even if they hate that teacher 

Very often children in law address themselves to the parents in law using the parents in law's name with patronymic or just call them as mama and papa 

[SANDRO43]

It is really doesn't matter if you respect a person or not

Olga, I used 'respect' in quotes, meaning a person of a higher status/age .

[OlgaH]

Olga, I used 'respect' in quotes, meaning a person of a higher status/age .

Oh, sorry, I missed it

http://casa-latina.ru/s/s/icon_flov.gif

[Wienerin]

Thank you GOB, I KNOW that, it's a pretty universal rule, when addressing people you are not intimate with, not to be informal.

I was trying to determine the 'usage area' (formal/informal) of the name+patronymic combination in Russian, since it is peculiar to that language/culture and has no equivalent in the West. I forgot to ask whether it also implies the use of the 2nd person plural (Вы), which would move it towards the formal/polite area.

I like your inquisitive mind - you always give me some food for thought even in subjects which I just take for granted - like "this is so...".

Normally, the use of name+patronimic is de rigeur in formal|polite usage, which also presupposes "Вы". In older generation or people with more educated, "upper-class" (not to be confused with nomenklatura) background, even good friends for many years will often address each other as "Вы" and by name-patronymic.

Sometimes, if the acquiantance is long but started and continues mostly on a formal basis - say, colleagues, but quite good friends after many years, too, - you can hear something like "Znayesh', Petr Ivanych, tut ty neprav..."

My Mom called her two bosom friends - since the University, through the war, blockade, evacuation, etc. - both named Yevgeniya - Eugenie - Zhenechka (and they called her Tonechka or Tosen'ka - her name was Antonina), but they all were "Вы" to each other. When both of them were visiting at the same time, Mom called them Zhenechka Yul'yevna and Zhenechka Aleksandrovna

The use of patronymic shows respect, treatment as an equal. It can only be dropped if the one adressed like this insists. When I started working Mama gave me two advices:
1) never sign anything so long as you can wriggle out of it
2) introduce yourself to your colleagues and supervisers with full name and patronymic. Otherwise you'll remain "Lenochka" until you die of old age.

Sadly, almost everywhere in Russia, there's more and more first name only and Ty - even in quite formal settings, especially at work. Sometimes it seems to me that only native St.Petersburgans uphold the "Вы" and name-patronymic tradition. Say, my Mom and brother both were very much older than my boyfriend - The Boatswain , and they've accepted him as family long time ago, too. But they address him "Вы" and name-patronymic (as he, too, of course).

He also addresses both my sons "Вы" and name-patronymic (though they've met when they were all of them young adults, and there's not that much age difference - 5 yrs with the older one, and 10 with the younger).

In our social strata it would be almost unthinkable to do otherwise. And use of ONLY patronymic is uncultured. Sometimes in a factory workers circles, more often with people of rural village background. And only among older people, some 50s and more.

As far as I know, the use of Mama-Papa with in-laws is very rare and also happens in uneducated families. Normal usage again is Vy and name-patronymic

Mind you, I did not dig into formal statistics, just my 40+ years experience in a variety of situations and people. Not only in professional/academic St.Petersburg circles by far



BTW - to call one only

[SANDRO43]

Sometimes it seems to me that only native St.Petersburgans uphold the "Вы" and name-patronymic tradition.

Wienerin, what you say matches basically what my grandmother (www.floriani.it/nonnaeugenia-eng.htm), herself a native of St. Petersburg, used to tell me a long time ago. However, since her Russian life was over in 1916, I didn't think I could use much of her reminiscences as regards contemporary usage.

Could it be that, opposite to Moscow, St. Petersburg still clings to a few habits from its pre-revolutionary past ?

[SANDRO43]

Alright, I'll have another stab at it. You may wonder why I appear obsessed by this: my only intention is to eventually put it in the RWDpedia as permanent guidance for WM travellers .

INFORMAL (pronoun: Tы)
0. Nickname and Tы (among intimates): Анечка, ты знаеш...
1. First name and Tы (among intimates): Анна, ты знаеш...

SEMI-INFORMAL (pronoun: Tы/Bы)
2. Patronymic and Tы (among uncultured elders): Аркадиевна, ты знаеш...
3. Name+patronymic and Tы (among cultured elders): Анна Аркадиевна, ты знаеш...
4. Nickname and Bы (from senior colleagues, one-sided informality): Анечка, Вы знаете...

FORMAL (pronoun: Bы)
5. Name+patronymic and Bы (among colleagues, acquaintances): Анна Аркадиевна, Вы знаете...
6. Honorific title+family name and Bы (with initial acquaintances/'normal' strangers):  госпожа Каренина, Вы знаете...
7. Honorific title and Bы  (with total strangers): сударыня/барышня, Вы знаете...
8. Office/academic title+ name+patronymic and Bы  (with 'respected' acquaintances): Профессор Анна Аркадиевна, Вы знаете...

VERY FORMAL (pronoun: Bы)
9. Office/academic title+family name and Bы (with 'respected' strangers): Профессор Каренина, Вы знаете...
10. Name+patronymic+family name and Bы (with 'highly-respected' strangers):  Анна Аркадиевна Каренина, Вы знаете...

Incidentally, it just occurred to me that most English honorifics are probably of French origin, more or less mangled/shortened for Anglo-Saxon convenience:

Maitre -> Mister (Mr.)
Maitresse -> Mistress (Mrs.)
Mademoiselle -> Miss  (Ms.)
Seigneur -> Sir
Madame -> Madam

Not to mention noble titles (unsurprisingly, feudal nobility having been imported by the Normans), among which only Earl (Count) seems 'native' (from Scandinavian Yarl). In this connection, the 'language' of British heraldry is full of Old French, witness the following partial blazon (verbal description of the achievement) of the Royal Coat of Arms:

"Quarterly, 1 and 4 England, 2 Scotland, 3 Ireland. The shield encircled with the Garter. Upon the royal helm, the crown proper, thereon a lion statant guardant or, crowned proper. Mantling: gold lined wih ermine. Supporters: dexter, a lion guardant or, crowned proper; sinister, a unicorn, armed, crined and unguled or and gorged with a coronet of crosses paty and  fleurs-de-lis, a chain affixed thereto passing between the forelegs and reflexed over the back, gold."

And that doesn't even cover what's inside the shield .

[SANDRO43]

And not to do an injustice to our Russian members , here is:

THE FULL BLAZON OF
THE GREATER COAT OF ARMS OF
THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE

(Translated from Russian into English by Commander V. Yegorov in 1991)

     Or, a double-headed Imperial Eagle displayed Sable, twice imperially crowned proper, armed and membered Gold, langued Gules, grasping in the dexter claw an imperial sceptre, and in the sinister claw an imperial orb, all proper. In chief another bigger imperial crown with issuant and pendent therefrom a blue-celeste ribbon of the Order of St. Andrew the First-Called.

     The Imperial Eagle is charged on the breast with an escutcheon: Gules, an image of the Holy Greatmartyr and Victorybearer George in complete armour Argent, wearing a flying cloak Azure, riding a horse in full gallop Argent, the latter is covered with a horse-cloth Gules, fringed, bridled and maned Or, and treading upon a dragon crawling in base Or, winged Vert, whose head the rider is piercing through with a spear, the rear end of the latter is terminating in an Orthodox cross Gold (for Moscow).

     Above the escutcheon is placed a helmet of St. Prince Alexander Nevsky, with a mantling Sable, doubled Or. The shield is encircled with the collar and pendent therefrom a badge of the Order of St. Andrew the First-Called.

     And for supporters are: on the dexter side St. Archangel Michael in complete armour, holding in the dexter hand a sword enflamed, all proper; and on the sinister side St. Archangel Gabriel habited proper, holding in the sinister hand a long cross Gold.

     All displayed within an imperial robe of estate with a pavilion Or, semée of imperial eagles, doubled Ermine, and ensigned with an imperial crown proper. Along the pavilion's rim is a motto which means "GOD WITH US", lettered Gules.

     And above all, issuant from behind the pavilion and the imperial crown, is a state gonfannon Or, fimbriated of the state livery colours: Sable, Or, and Argent, and emblazoned with the Lesser Coat of Arms of the Russian Empire. The imperial robe of estate is semi circled below by nine shields, each being ensigned with its proper crown, displaying the coats of arms of the Titular Kingdoms and Principalities of the Russian Empire, and the ancestral Arms of the Russian Emperor, namely:

     I. Argent, a wyvern Sable, crowned and armed Or, winged, langued and tailed Gules (for the Kingdom of Kazan).

     II. Azure, a royal crown of eight arches (five visible) Or, doubled Vert, above a sabre curved in fess point to the dexter Argent, hilted and pummeled Or (for the Kingdom of Astrakhan).

     III. Gules, an eagle displayed Argent, royally crowned proper, armed and membered Or (for the Kingdom of Poland).

     IV. Ermine, two sables rampant combatant Sable, supporting an ancient crown Or, and a bow in fess, with two arrows saltirewise points downwards, all Gules (for the Kingdom of Siberia).

     V. Or, a double-headed Byzantine eagle displayed Sable, twice royally crowned and armed Gold, charged on the breast with an escutcheon: Azure, an Orthodox cross within a bordure, all Or (for the Kingdom of the Taurian Chersonesus - now the Crimea).

     VI. Quarterly with enté en pointe and an inescutcheon (for the Caucasus):
     1. Gules, between in sinister chief and dexter base two mullets of eight points, a horse in full gallop all Argent (for Iberia).
     2. Or, a volcano fumant Vert, pierced through with two arrows saltirewise points upwards Sable (for Kartalinia).
     3. Azure, between in chief and at either side three mullets of six points Argent, two arrows saltirewise points upwards of the same, debruised by an inescutcheon Or, charged with an increscent Gules (for Kabarda).
     4. Or, a lion rampant Gules, crowned proper (for Armenia).
     5. Enté en pointe Or, a Chercassian warrior in complete armour Argent, habited Gules and wearing a fur cloak Sable, holding a spear of the same on the dexter shoulder, and riding a horse in full gallop Sable (for the Chercassian and Mountaineer Princes).
     6. The inescutcheon: Or, an image of St. George Martyr the Victorious in complete armour Azure with a cross on the breast, wearing a flying cloak Gules, and riding a horse in full gallop Sable, covered with a horse-cloth Gules, fringed Gold, treading upon a crawling dragon Vert, winged Sable, eyed and langued Gules, whose head the rider is piercing through with a spear Gules (for the Kingdom of Georgia).

     VII. Tierced per pale and enté en pointe (for the united ancient Principal Russian Grand Duchies):
     1. Azure, an image of St. Archangel Michael in complete armour with the wings inverted all Argent, holding in the dexter hand a sword enflamed proper, and in the sinister hand a shield Argent (for the Grand Duchy of Kiev).
     2. Gules, a lion rampant guardant Or, crowned with an iron crown proper, holding in the dexter forepaw a long cross Argent (for the Grand Duchy of Vladimir).

     3. Enté en pointe Argent, two bears statant erect combatant Sable, supporting a throne Or, cushioned Gules, on which are placed a sceptre and a long cross saltirewise, both Or. On the back of the Throne is a triple candlestick Gold with three lighted candles proper. In a base Azure, two fish fesswise respectant naiant and counter-naiant Argent (for the Grand Duchy of Novgorod).

     VIII. Gules, between eight roses Argent, barbed and seeded proper, a lion rampant Or, ducally crowned proper, holding in the dexter vambraced forepaw a straight-bladed sword proper, hilted and pommeled Or, and resting the sinister forepaw on a curved sabre proper, hilted and pommeled as the latter, the blade of which the lion is treading upon with the dexter hind paw (for the Grand Duchy of Finland).

     IX. Beneath all is placed a shield, ensigned with a royal crown proper, displaying the Ancestral Arms of His Imperial Majesty the Lord Emperor and Autocrat of All Russias. Namely: Per pale,
     1. Argent, a griffin segreant Gules, holding a sword proper and a round shield Or, ensigned upon its upper edge with an eaglet Sable, all within a bordure Sable, charged with eight lion's heads erased Or and Argent alternately (for the House of Romanov).

     2. Quarterly with enté en pointe and an inescutcheon.
     i. Gules, a lion rampant Or, crowned proper, holding in the forepaws a long-handled axe of St. Olaf Argent, handled Or (for Norway);
     ii. Or, two lions passant Azure (for Schleswig);
     iii. Gules, an inescutcheon per fess Argent and Gules, between three nettle leaves and as many passion nails in pairle Argent (for Holstein);
     iv. Gules, a swan Argent, beaked, membered and royally gorged Or (for Stormarn);
     v. Enté en pointe: Gules, a knight in armour Or, on a horse Argent, brandishing a sword Argent, and with a shield Azure, charged with a cross pattée Or (for Ditmarsen);
     vi. Over all, an inescutcheon of pretence ensigned with a Duke's crown proper, namely: Per pale, a) Or, two bars Gules (for Oldenburg); b) Azure, a cross pattée fitchy Or (for Delmenhorst).

     The imperial robe of estate is semi circled above by six shields, displaying the coats of arms of the Imperial Titular Provinces and Lands, namely:

     I. The united coat of arms of the Principalities and Provinces of Great Russia. Twice per fess and twice per pale, with enté en pointe:
     1. Argent, a stag trippant Gules, unguled and attired of twelve tynes Sable (for Nizhny Novgorod).
     2. Argent, two arms vested Gules, issuant from either side of the shield out of clouds Azure, and holding in the hands two spears in saltire Gules (for Yugora).
     3. Or, a knyaz (prince) vested Vert, with a fur hat on, wearing a cloak and booted Gules, holding in the dexter hand a sword proper and in the sinister hand a scabbard Sable (for Ryazan).
     4. Argent, a cannon Sable, its carriage and wheels Or, with perching on the fuse a "Paradise Bird" proper (for Smolensk).
     5. Azure, a snow leopard Or, in chief issuant out of clouds Argent a dexter hand proper (for Pskov).
     6. Gules, a throne Or, cushioned Vert, on which is placed a royal crown proper (for Tver).
     7. Argent, a bear passant erect guardant Sable, holding in the sinister forepaw a long-handled axe Or (for Yaroslavl).
     8. Gules, a stag statant Argent, gorged Or (for Rostov Veliky).
     9. Azure, two fish in saltire Argent, in chief a crescent of the same, in dexter chief a cross pommé Or (for Belo-Ozero).
     10. Enté en pointe: Sable, a fox Argent, langued and eyed Gules (for Udora).

     II. The united coat of arms of the South-Western Provinces.
Tierced per pale and enté en pointe:
     1. Gules, a cross formy Argent (for Volyn);
     2. Azure, the sun in splendour accompanied in chief with a cross couped, all Or (for Podolsk);
     3. Argent, an eagle crowned displayed Sable, holding behind the back in the sinister claws a long cross tilted bendwise Or (for Chernigov).

     III. The united coat of arms of the White Russia's and Lithuanian Provinces.
Quarterly with enté en pointe and an inescutcheon:
     1. Per fess. i.Gules, an eagle displayed Argent. ii. Or, a knight in complete armour Azure (Pogonia - "Pursuit"), holding a sword proper and a shield Argent, charged with an Orthodox cross Gules, riding a Horse Sable, covered with a three-tailed horse-cloth of the fourth, fringed of the field (for Belostock).
     2. Or, a Bear statant erect Sable, langued and eyed Gules (for Samogitia).
     3. Argent, a knight in complete armour Sable (Pogonia - "Pursuit"), holding a scimitar proper and a circular shield Gules, charged with an Orthodox cross Argent, riding a horse Sable, bridled Argent and Gules (for Polotsk).
     4. Gules, a knight in complete armour Argent (Pogonia - "Pursuit"), holding a sword and a round shield of the same, charged with an Orthodox cross Gules, riding a horse Argent, saddled Gules, covered with a three-tailed horse-cloth Or, fringed Azure (for Vitebsk).
     5. Enté en pointe: Argent, a wolf passant reguardant Gules (for Mstislav).
     6. The inescutcheon: Gules, a knight in complete armour Argent (Pogonia - "Pursuit"), holding a sword and a shield of the same, charged with an Orthodox cross Gules, riding a horse Argent, covered with a three-tailed horse-cloth of the field, fringed Or (for the Grand Duchy of Lithuania).

     IV. The united coat of arms of the Baltic Provinces.
Quarterly:
     1. Or, three lions passant Azure (for Estland)
     2. Gules, a griffin segreant Argent, holding a sword Or, and charged on his breast with a cypher (Peter the Second, Emperor of All Russias) Gules, ensigned with an imperial crown (for Liefland).
     3. Quarterly, i and iv: Argent, a lion rampant crowned Gules (for Kurland). ii and iii: Azure, issuant from the side a demi stag trippant ducally crowned, attired of twelve tynes, Argent; the figures in the 1st and 3rd quarters being contourné (for Semigalia).
     4. Gules, two arms embowed vambraced combatant Argent, each holding in the hand a scimitar proper, with in chief a crown Or (for Korelia).

     V. The united coat of arms of the North-Eastern Provinces.
Quarterly, with an inescutcheon:
     1. Or, an arm vested Gules, issuant from the sinister side out of clouds Azure, holding a bow and an arrow in full draught, with in dexter chief a cross pommé, all Gules (for Vyatka, presently: Kirov).
     2. Vert, an Agnus Dei Argent carrying a gonfannon Gules, shafted Or, charged with a cross Argent (for Bulgaria).
     3. Argent, a fox passant Sable, langued and eyed Gules (for Obdora).
     4. Vert, a savage wreathed with oak foliage both about the temples and loins, and holding a club Argent on the dexter shoulder (for Kondia).
     5. The inescutcheon: Gules, a bear passant Argent, carrying on the back a book of the Gospel Or, ensigned with a cross formy rayonnant of four rays Argent (for Perm).

     VI. Or, a unicorn passant Sable, armed, langued and eyed Gules (for Turkestan).


http://www.armorial.ru/imperial.htm

[Wienerin]

Wienerin, what you say matches basically what my grandmother (www.floriani.it/nonnaeugenia-eng.htm), herself a native of St. Petersburg, used to tell me a long time ago. However, since her Russian life was over in 1916, I didn't think I could use much of her reminiscences as regards contemporary usage.

Could it be that, opposite to Moscow, St. Petersburg still clings to a few habits from its pre-revolutionary past ?

Well, it's subtly flattering, but I don't think it's completely true. First of all, due to extensive vicious purges which hit Peter the hardest of all big cities (harder than Moscow) and the Siege and evacuation and heavy influz from the provinces, there's not that much Old World tradition left and not that many people to uphold it.

Second, there is a core of Old Muscovites, who are even more supportive of Russian tradition. And in many smaller cities it was also the same. Even up to the time I left - in 1995.

And Peter - as the capital, as the city, where most of the aristocracy dwelled, most of the foreigner - newcomers, diplomatic corps, etc., most of the "intelligentsia", etc. - was the least traditional Russian city in the Empire. Wich it to some extent remained - even given what I've said above. Contradictory& Yes, to a certain extent. The only explanation could be that StPetersburg performes it's own magic on everyone, who settles there. My Boatswain is the first in his family born in St.Petersburg. But you'll hardly be able to tell it - he's fully as rabid a Petersburgean (at its best and worst) as my brother and I are - in our fifth generation.

As to the initial subj. - name-patronymic and VY - it continues to be polite usage along the lines I've drawn, and not only in StPetersburg, but it has been and continues to be deteriorating in the work-place. I don't rightly know why exactly, but my supposition would be that it came from nomenklatura - bosses and Party people. They usually didn't go so far as call the "underlings" by the first name only, but TY + name-patronymic was used more and more widely. Just to show who was the boss, ya'know

As these bosses and Party guys didn't actually go anywhere, - so this practice is spreading. When I was really shocked - and after almost half-century in Russia I'd have thought that nothing could stun me any longer - was when a guy in OVIR (passport-visa dept. of police), roughly the same age as my older son, said "Lena - and may I use TY..." - I jumped and screeched, NO!!! You may NOT! And it's Yelena Davydovna for you... Then he was shocked almost out of his boots  But, you know what? These were the new times already, and he had to swallow this insult to his authority, and almost didn't do anything nasty in retaliation (to send me on a wild goose chase after asome totally irrelevant pieces of paper was almost nothing compared to what he could have managed just 4-5 short years before).

[Wienerin]

8. Office/academic title+ name+patronymic and Bы  (with 'respected' acquaintances): Профессор Анна Аркадиевна, Вы знаете...

VERY FORMAL (pronoun: Bы)
9. Office/academic title+family name and Bы (with 'respected' strangers): Профессор Каренина, Вы знаете...
10. Name+patronymic+family name and Bы (with 'highly-respected' strangers):  Анна Аркадиевна Каренина, Вы знаете...

8 - absolutely not. It's not impolite|rude, but just ridiculous. Either simply "Professor" or "Anna Arkadyevna" - and, of course, VY. Which is also totally correct for the most formal occasions, too.
9 - never as an address. Only in the referral, as in "The next paper would be delivered by Professor Karenina. Welcome, Anna Arkadyevna..."
10 - never. Either Anna Arkadyevna or M-me|Gospozha Karenina

BTW Sudar' and sudarynya were a bit old-fashioned (or only in very formal circumstances and of restricted use) already by the end of the XIX c. Baryshnya as form of address was used mostly by humble folks towards an obviously "better-class" very young woman, a girl actually. Similar to "Miss,..." Now it's "Devushka" - with isn't so nice, too. Better use something neutral - as May I ask/bother you for... Excuse me, you've dropped your glove... Можно Вас попросить/побеспокоить... Извините, Вы уронили перчатку...

You cannot also adress smb as Gospozha - only with the last name, like Gospozha Karenina.

The safe bet would be either neutral (as above) or Ma-am, that is мадам - which was ridiculed and shunted all through the товарищ/гражданин era (with subtle nuance in the usage too), but as early as the 70s some prominent linguists already noted and were concerned about the sad lack of common polite address.

They tried to revive sudar' and sudarynya, but it didn't take since it didn't lend itself easily to everyday communication. Gospodin and gospozha weren't welcome for the obvious reason - in the 20s, when some die-hards still tried to address someone as Gospodin - there was coined a jeering and not so innocent answer: "Gospoda all fled to Paris".

In the 90s though Gospodin/Gospozha took hold, and Madam wouldn't be jeered (mostly) at any longer. But an address to a stranger still presents some difficulties. To a younger man one can say "Molodoy chelovek'... to the one who is older you can address as "Sudar'" - if you feel comfortable with this. I'm not, so I'd choose this old staple as "Prostite/Izvinite..." etc.

[Wienerin]

Separate heartfelt thanks for the link to your page - interesting and charming, and the beautiful engraving of the Pages Academy brought tears of envy to my eyes (if you tell me that you have this at home, I'll die! We have a number of wonderful prints of St.Petersburg from 18-19cc but not this one )

My origins are much humbler, but quite interesting too - I think BTW my Dad was an artillery major in wwII - his war ended in Vienna... where I was born as the result

[Misha]

2. Patronymic and Tы (among uncultured elders): Аркадиевна, ты знаеш...
3. Name+patronymic and Tы (among cultured elders): Анна Аркадиевна, ты знаеш...

Cultured versus uncultured elders? What exactly is your source for this? How do you define cultured versus uncultured?

[OlgaH]

BTW Sudar' and sudarynya were a bit old-fashioned (or only in very formal circumstances and of restricted use) already by the end of the XIX c. Baryshnya as form of address was used mostly by humble folks towards an obviously "better-class" very young woman, a girl actually. Similar to "Miss,..." Now it's "Devushka" - with isn't so nice, too.

Baryshnya was formed from barin, an unmarried barin's daughter. Later baryshnya became a polite form of address to all unmarried young woman. During the prerevolutionary time there was a such professions that officially called as baryshnya telegraphist and office baryshnya. During the first time after revolution, when Russians were trying to introduce new forms of address into practice, there were even such form of address as "comrade baryshnya"      

You cannot also adress smb as Gospozha - only with the last name, like Gospozha Karenina.

Not correct.  
Business contact practical training session
http://www.aup.ru/books/m96/13.htm

The form of address gospodin is used with a last name, a title or a position: Gospodin Karenin, Gospodin professor, Gospodin Governor, such form of address still is not used towards the low-income groups and unemployed people.  

In Russian classic literature you can see that gospodin very often is used just with a last name.

Sometimes in Russia the elderly men addressed to me using sudarynya. I find such form of address to be very pleasant and hope, that form of address will be restored.

[SANDRO43]

Cultured versus uncultured elders? What exactly is your source for this? How do you define cultured versus uncultured?

Olga's previous post about old office cleaners . If you can offer a more appropriate definition, please do so.

[OlgaH]

Olga's previous post about old office cleaners . If you can offer a more appropriate definition, please do so.

Sandro, I thought you were joking making definitions. 

[Misha]

Olga's previous post about old office cleaners . If you can offer a more appropriate definition, please do so.

The only time I have used only the patronymic used was in certain regions of Russia where it was used as a term of endearment for a close friend, yet respected person know for years and years. I can't remember whether it was used with ты or вы however.

[SANDRO43]

the beautiful engraving of the Pages Academy brought tears of envy to my eyes (if you tell me that you have this at home, I'll die! We have a number of wonderful prints of St.Petersburg from 18-19cc but not this one )

Yelena Davydovna relax, you may yet live on .

I got the picture of that print from somewhere on the Internet, possibly from the website referenced on my great-grand-uncle's page on the exhibition at Columbia University (http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/news/exhibitions/2002/2002-12-01.corps_rbml.html),  the page displaying a photo of him sitting among his Cadets.

[SANDRO43]

Sandro, I thought you were joking making definitions. 

Olga, I have to use SOME definition to differentiate the usage.

I'll use whatever you, Yelena and Misha agree to consider more appropriate/applicable.

[OlgaH]

Olga, I have to use SOME definition to differentiate the usage.

OK. I think it would be better to give the general rules of addressing ethics in modern Russia. 

[SANDRO43]

OK. I think it would be better to give the general rules of addressing ethics in modern Russia. 

And where would I get those?

[OlgaH]

And where would I get those?

I will help.

[Wienerin]

Cultured versus uncultured elders? What exactly is your source for this? How do you define cultured versus uncultured?

OK, I tried - but I don't have an exact term for просторечье или простонародное. Village folks usage, non-educated, parochial, uncouth, like a rube... dunno. Maybe Sandro could help - knowing many languages and more able to catch nuances.

And yes, definitely among the older folks only. Dying out, in fact. BTW even in the rural areas, in villages, the better off people called each other by name+patronymic, leaving the patronymic only for simpler folks, "who do not know any better". And you could often hear from the sity-dwelling younger generation to the village-born and bred elders something like "Mama, stop calling my mother-in-law Petrovna - it's so uncultured, so village-like (так некультурно, по-деревенски)"

There was a fad among younger intellectuals - in our late 20s or 30s, - to call each other (humorously, of course) in this way - by patronymic only. In my research lab the effect was rather hilarious, since there were only 3 ethnic Russians, of which two had soviet era patronymics - their parents were named on the great wave of enthusiasm in the 1920s - Marat and Vilen ... So, the unaware visitor could be flabbergasted by: Vilenovich, Maratovich, Fedorovich, Bogdanovna (from Belarus), Levontiyevna (from Ukraine), Davydovna, Izrailevna, Markovna, Pesachovich (all Jewish), Faridovna (Tatar from Kazan), Dariushovich (from Lithuania) and Agibekovich (from Azerbaijan)

It didn't hold up for very long - except as an inside joke in some intimate circles. But our hippys sometime take on patronymics as their nicknames.

[Misha]

And yes, definitely among the older folks only. Dying out, in fact. BTW even in the rural areas, in villages, the better off people called each other by name+patronymic, leaving the patronymic only for simpler folks, "who do not know any better". And you could often hear from the sity-dwelling younger generation to the village-born and bred elders something like "Mama, stop calling my mother-in-law Petrovna - it's so uncultured, so village-like (так некультурно, по-деревенски)"

Well, the village "folk" watch the same television and are educated using the same standard Russian education system, so you have to be quite old to fall under the stereotype 

[Wienerin]

Yelena Davydovna relax, you may yet live on .

I got the picture of that print from somewhere on the Internet, possibly from the website referenced on my great-grand-uncle's page on the exhibition at Columbia University (http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/news/exhibitions/2002/2002-12-01.corps_rbml.html),  the page displaying a photo of him sitting among his Cadets.

My saviour! (blowing a huge kiss ) If you stop by some day, you're due not only a nice dinner but 2-3 dozen contemporary views of ol St.Petersburg, too.

[Wienerin]

And where would I get those?

After the assurance that modern business ethics (or any sort of common usage) allows the address "Gospozha" without the last name or title - I withdraw from this discussion also

Just to return some of the pleasure you gave me with your web page
http://spb-svu.nm.ru/museum.html
http://www.nevsky-prospekt.com/palaces/thepalaces.html
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=dslndvm5mke0j7vs8vju5oto82&topic=11659.0

[Wienerin]

Well, the village "folk" watch the same television and are educated using the same standard Russian education system, so you have to be quite old to fall under the stereotype 

Quite old meaning how old? And what has everyday accepted usage having to do with "the same television" (which is not true, BTW - even not far from St.Petersburg, say 2-3 hrs by car, there are palces with no reliable TV transmission and only a channel or two. No cable, no DSL, sorry) and standard education system? The last also not being universally true - there are places where there's only a 8yr school, and children often have to go on foot 2-3 miles.

People 45-60 or more years old quite often didn't get even that much schooling - there simply not being any. And until the 70s young people often not allowed to go to high school in a regional center or not able to. Simply not getting their passports from the local government. To keep people in the kolkhoz. That's why when young men were conscripted to the army service, mostly they didn't return.

I've been - up to the early 90s for the last time - to quite a number of villages in Leningradskaya, Pskovskaya, Novgorodskaya, Arkhangelskaya and Ryazanskaya regions/oblasti.

And I still do not get your premise how the TV and school system would have influenced the way the people addressed each other. And as to this being mostly the older people - I agree, because the younger tend to flee to the city as soon as possible. But people 40+ still tend to address each other like this.