First date: 3 miles vs. 6 thousand, seems about the same

[DRB NW WA State USA]

Long-time lurker, new contributor.  I have an interesting situation, comments appreciated.  Story is a bit long.

I think about 1992 I decided “Russian Bride” (generically) was a real possibility for me, based on disposition and all the other good factors about these ladies (I’m 40 this year, never married).  Fate, and a little elbow-grease (aka “effort”) have presented a possible opportunity.

Early November I spotted a personals ad on one of the typically-American services, i.e. NOT foreign-bride oriented.  I answered her ad, not vice-versa.  I’m an on-again/off-again member of this service.  Verbiage and style suggested “CIS lady” but the instincts cautioned, “scammer!”  To make a long story short, in one of those weird confluences of cosmic-symmetry, the lady…let’s call her Alana… has the following knowns:

- Actually in the U.S., lives 3 miles(!) from my home, been here 8 years, tolerable English.
- Has phone number, gave it up with a little coaxing, we’ve talked half-dozen times.   
- Non-professional photos that appear on-the-level, she’s a knockout and well-put together, like most CIS ladies (grin).
- Took several conversations to actually see these photos, wanted to make sure a man appreciated her, not just a "beautiful woman."
- Smart, feminine, a bit old-fashioned in courtship ways (this is not a bad thing).

(I have NOT met her yet, that will be crux of my question.  Bear with me a moment longer.)

The next are assumptions, cannot prove or disprove, as-yet:

- Single
- Sincere about marriage and family (she brought it up)
- Age difference is 11 years, which would be slightly odd in the U.S. but does not "appear" untoward in this case.
- Everything in writing and verbal manners suggests genuine Russian-lady values, exactly what you guys always discuss, and cross-referenced via many other helpful websites.

As Ian Flemming’s Goldfinger quipped to Agent 007, “Once is happenstance.  Twice, coincidence.  Third time, enemy action!”  : I am being a bit cautious, it’s easy to fall for a pretty face and congenial manner.  The cynical side of me whispers:

- Gold-digger
- Some sort of situation whereby she MUST get married or face deportation by ICE.

Ah, but that hopeful side prefers:

- Smart, single, classy, total-knockout seems to actually like me:  Mr. somewhat-above-average but no George Clooney in looks, T. Boone Pickens in bankbook, or GQ Dude in fashion sense?  Whoo hoo!
- Finally, a woman not sizing me up for a coffin or the credit limit on my AmX Platinum!
- Sounds like a sincere planner/nester: wants to get married, have a family, while opportunity is ripe

Now, the question.  (Before that, note: I am not a cad; after much soul-searching and trying to genuinely understand and empathize with CIS ladies, I am willing and able to take that next-step (the dreaded “M” word), with the right lady, if and only-if there is genuine love and understanding on both sides.   I’ve mulled this carefully for probably a decade, and heaven knows sowed wild oats enough for ten strong men.)

Actually getting that first date is a bit elusive!  We tried to connect last week for a nice walk, on a snowy evening, but road conditions stopped my arrival.  She could just be cautious, it does not smell like a scam, but it seems that “first date protocol” is a bit out of my league. 

I’m hoping she’s just going slowly: is that “their” way, typically?  Lots of talk, lots of letters, swapping of intentions (honorable), then perhaps a first meet?  We’re approaching a month.  I’m in no burning hurry, but this is still a bit odd to me.

Why: American women, we talk on the phone after correspondence, meet for coffee or etc., size each other up, and go from there typically within two weeks (sometimes much sooner).  Seems to avoid wasted time/effort if there is or is not chemistry.  This does NOT appear S.O.P. with CIS ladies, in the U.S. or otherwise: she as much as said she wants “old fashioned courtship.”  If one, she won’t meet me somewhere where SHE travels to ME, and two, we’ve never met, I’m a bit flustered how to actually meet this fine lady.

What is first date protocol?  Pretend I’m on a plane flying into Sheremetyevo to meet her for the first time, when framing your answer.  We are three miles away but it seems like 6 thousand, at this point. 

(Answer may be: “patience, my son!”)

Thanks, all.

DRB

[groovlstk]

I’m hoping she’s just going slowly: is that “their” way, typically?  Lots of talk, lots of letters, swapping of intentions (honorable), then perhaps a first meet?  We’re approaching a month.  I’m in no burning hurry, but this is still a bit odd to me.

Actually my experience dating FSU women in both Ukraine/Russia and the US has been the exact opposite. Most women wanted to meet as soon as possible, an attitude I found refreshing as most AW I dated in the NYC area acted like I was Jack the Ripper and it was my job to convince them otherwise before they'd agree to a date.

[Jumper]

in my experience -

 Most local FSUW would be quite direct ,
and this type of  situation -
of trading emails or phone calls for a month,  on some random dating site-

would bluntly actualy ask YOU why you are messing around.,.,
*lets meet already*


but everyone is different, there are a million personalities
maybe she's just cautiuos.

she lives 3 miles from you,
it's seems odd you two couldnt have met..snow or no snow,,lol
or decided to meet and set a time and place.


i wouldn't  be suspiciuos of scam..
and to be honest if i was a single guy i wouldnt care
- i'd just go meet her !why not?
seems interesting enough?
 there isnt anything you can decide or woprk oput about a person without first even seeing if you like each other..


edited to add:
I met an eastern european woman in a similar situation,
(her having been living in the USA some years)
and while it ultimately did not work out,
while we dated ,her integrity and personality really raised my interests in FSU women.
after that ,and dating a  couple more  local FSU W with similar character,
 and personalities,,who were amazing people,
 it really caused me to think seriously about why they all,
seemed to have the character traits i admire,
and certainly was the start of my interest in RW.

[KenC]

DRB.
Welcome to RWD!

Man, you may have just got VERY lucky in finding this woman around the corner.  I would like to make a few points that I hope you find helpful.  At 8 years in country, she probably had no visa/green card issues.  I would explore the reasons for her originally coming to America.  A failed marriage maybe?  Lots of questions to be answered over time (not necessarily the first date)

Because the lady in question has been living in America for the last 8 years, you will be dealing with a Russian/American woman.  That is both good and bad as I see it.  It is good because she probably has maintained much of her Russian ideals and expectations of marriage (Which IMO is far superior to AW).  The "bad" part may be that she is scared from a failed first marriage or that she has become more "Americanized" by living here for that time.  How much?  Who knows?  My wife has been in country for going on 9 years now and she is a perfect blend of Russian and American traits IMO.  (She still maintains her Russian tenacity without being a snarling rude beotch.  I mean she actually even smiles at strangers now )

Once you meet and get to know the lady more, the reasons for her cautiousness will be self evident.  Good luck and for Christ's sake, drive the friggen 3 miles!  I don't give a damn about the weather, you have no idea how much easier it is from going over there to meet.
Kenc

[DRB NW WA State USA]

Gents, thanks for the counsel.  Thanks, too, for being patient with the question.

Ms. "Alana" seems to be the real-deal, at least we've met for one spectacular date (grin).  I believe she was (is) just being cautious overall, for reasons I'm sure will be discovered.  One is already semi-revealed, she seems to have a son (I say "seems to" because I can't quite get a straight answer on that, either).   We shall see where this goes, definitely a different kind of experience from American women and it's a bit of vertigo (framing it properly).

In the end, it's not all that different from an American gal, I suppose: women will reveal what they choose, when they choose.

I would never tell Alana as much, but it is interesting to note an FSU lady behaving "around the norms":  1) family oriented  2) well put-together (dress, demeanor, mannerisms, attention to femininity)  3) a bit passionate about issues/arguments but equally quick to forgive and move on  4) expectation that a man "act like a man" in terms of manners  5) obvious respect when a man both keeps his manners and yet expresses honorable romantic intentions (flowers, opening doors and etc., other dating-courtesies).   Hah: do all the Americans know how outside-the-box most of the above it for most 21st Century American women??

I further see the need for a man to be patient, kind, forward yet gentlemanly ("act like a man," in their parlance).  No one likes a milquetoast.  These are not bad attributes for any man to have, in my opinion, but sometimes they lead to perceptions of scorn and weakness amongst American women, that dreaded "nice guy" problem.  (Oh, we all learn to be direct-enough, to get what we need (physically), but that too leads to a bit of cynicism and objectification of the fair-sex on our part.  I tire of it.)

Most impressive of all, after a hard-won first date, was Alana's gentle affection for me.  She took my words and emails at face-value, I took hers as-such as well (with note of caution, as expressed in my original post), we both "decided" there was probably simpatico before even meeting.  Sure enough (lucky enough), there is.  It was just sweet, guess we could say.  Forgot how much I missed that.

We'll see: dating is dating, no idea where this will go, but it is interesting and unusual to discover. 

[wxman]

I also had the opportunity of dating a Russian woman in my city about 6 years ago. She was a professional accountant who lived in the US for several years. I also noticed it was a bit slow getting the dating thing going, but later I found out she went through a bad divorce and had a son. She had her guard up big time to protect herself and her son, and was in no hurry to move into another relationship. So perhaps the woman you are talking to has had some bad relationships and is in no hurry either.

[Daveman]

I also had the opportunity of dating a Russian woman in my city about 6 years ago. She was a professional accountant who lived in the US for several years. I also noticed it was a bit slow getting the dating thing going, but later I found out she went through a bad divorce and had a son. She had her guard up big time to protect herself and her son, and was in no hurry to move into another relationship. So perhaps the woman you are talking to has had some bad relationships and is in no hurry either.

Probably exactly correct...

I would just add though, that you should be a bit cautious also... not over the top paranoid or anything, but it's early, you are getting to know each other and thus do not know much at all about each other yet...  she has been here for 8 years. Cool.. maybe this is unlikely, but she could also still be married and putting her feelers out to make a change ... my point is, don't get too caught up in the fantasy to miss something... keep your head straight and your heart intact until you learn more... and enjoy the short travel distance!  Good luck..

Dave

[Lily]

You say, two weeks with an AW would be about right? Folks, are you quick! 

Well, when it is about a first meeting..the sooner, the better. But for some serious decisions, one month would not be enough. What she exhibits here is healthy prudence. Proceed with caution. 

You are exact about gentle affection that she shows for you. That's the word for how do we treat our men 

[IAmZon]

Welcome, and Lilly is right, as always.

A word of caution - or advise.  I just returned to the US.  It takes me about 48 hours to fully adjust my manners to "Non American" behavior.  What this means is do not be afraid to be direct - even blunt. 

Behavior that would appear slightly disrespectful to an AW, may be perceived as slightly weak by an FSU woman.

Do not be overly accommodating. Be certain.  The Strong man / Alpha Dog is what is valued without exception.  So make sure you communicate exactly what you expect and desire.  Do not be shy.

AND FOR GODS SAKE NEVER EVER EVER USE "BABY TALK"

[Daveman]

I think Groov summed it up quite succinctly a while back... (paraphrasing as best I can from memory) she's not after a strong ass who is overbearing and controlling, but rather a sincere man, who leads like a man and isn't weak.

Sorry if I butchered the paraphrase, but I distinctly remember "not being weak"... I think that is absolutely spot on.

[DRB NW WA State USA]

(Correction to previous: thanks gentlemen AND ladies for the counsel.)

After three remarkable dates, details are coming out.  The drama isn't all that unusual or unexpected.  Yes, initially she was just being cautious and taking things slowly. She arrived here via an American guy (no surprise) eight years ago.  That didn't work out, for various reasons I think most of the vets to this forum would understand (another story for another time).  Apparently even "telling" the story was a very big deal for Alana, a measure of trust, so I patiently and sympathetically listened.

Now, for some odd reason, I’m being severely berated for not seeing her “enough.”  This, after a 12 hr extended date night before last.   At this writing I’m still deep in the doghouse.   Definitely a communications-issue, probably some emotional issues, seems this lady is looking for some sort of implicit commitment after knowing each other about five weeks?   AW, I’d smell a rat.  In this case, I only sense deep hurt at something I did (or didn’t do).

She’s good at pulling the heartstrings: does not appear to be a scam, more like emotional brinkmanship.  Message: “be with me, or don’t be with me, but be one or the other!”  The transgression appears to be severe, she won’t take my calls for more than about 2 minutes without hanging up.   We’ll see if I get out of this particular doghouse, or not.  Solution she appears to be seeking is for me to make a Hail Mary play for her: odd, since that’s what got her into trouble in the first place with husband no. 1, way back when.   (Sigh).

My “patience” grows a bit thin, after 24 hrs of being declared persona non grata, though this must be one of those cross-cultural emotional things I don’t fully understand.  Clearly she cares about me; I’m being hung out to dry for suddenly not spending enough time with her.  (After, of course, it almost took an act of Congress to see her in the first place.)  Hard to win, in this situation.  As some of you say, apparently there must be more patience exercised than a man knows he has available. 

At least I found out she has a son, as of our last date.  I find it somewhat curious she stealthed the fact of his existence for five weeks, but then again that's a parent's prerogative I suppose.  Odds-are it harkens back to the painful details of parting from alleged-jerk American husband no. 1.

Well, as this mini soap-opera continues (assuming it continues), I'll keep to comments germane to the unique qualities of dating these FSU ladies.  If / when I am sufficiently contrite to be released from the proverbial doghouse, will probably have more questions.  I may even graduate from "beginner" to "journeyman" at some point ;-)

Unique aspect of the experience: I think nothing surprises me about AW and dating.  Been there, done that, probably as much as any other reasonably-presentable 40 y.o. guy.  Their motives are generally discernable: from blunt to sophisticated, at least I know the ground rules.  However, the FUNDAMENTAL rules may be different with these FSU ladies, or at least presented differently, and that is disorienting. 

[wxman]

Just a quick question. Would you treat her (or any woman) like the way she is treating you? If the answer is no, then don't accept that from her or anyone else. That type of treatment will not get any better with time, in fact it will only get worse. Close that shop and put out a new sign. 

[IAmZon]

Especially in the very beginning, its all very fundamental.  You seem to be trying to figure out a calculus equation more than simple arithmetic.

Do you "like" her?  Does she "like" you. 

Then go from there.  Life has a way of getting to hard to fast.  You are still at the training wheels stage with this one.

[evaljean]

Rule #1:  Be Cool

Rule #2:  See rule #1

It's all mental.  She is looking for your reactions.  Don't react.

When in doubt?  See rule #1.

Cheers!

Eric

[2tallbill]

Actually getting that first date is a bit elusive! 

Good lord, she is 3 miles away? Get in your car, then text her to put on fresh panties because you are on the way!

[ML]

tell her to put on fresh panties because you are on the way!

Napoleon would not have said that.

[Trenchcoat]

I would say to this question just go meet her and find out who she is in person. Otherwise sitting around trying to assume stuff about this woman is likely to be wrong and in any case rarely helps. So long as she is not screaming obvious signs of scammer just go meet her especially if just three miles away. More can be obtained about her on meeting than is ever likely from behind a keyboard.

Tine over again I would see the process as this; go set up dates with FSW, go see what their personality is like upon meeting, don't be too picky we are all imperfect but if it doesn't chime enough then go meet other women on other dates until you find one who does. Lots of possibilities out there so no need to get hung up on one woman

[2tallbill]

Napoleon would not have said that.

1. He didn't have a car.
2. He and she didn't have phones.
3. He would have had her come to him.
4. He wouldn't ask me for advice
5. Who cares

If I am going to be chasing her around her apartment with her panties on my head then,
she can only blame herself if they aren't daisy fresh. That's seed of an idea that I want to
plant into her head.