Which Learning Method is Best?

[Markus]

Does a person desire most to learn from those who have made mistakes and it hasn't worked or from those who have been successful?

Mark

[Daveman]

To me it's definitely a combination of lowering risk and increasing odds for success.  With no ONE approach being absolutely correct for everyone.

I prefer to lower risks by learning from my own and PREFERABLY other's mistakes, and increasing my chances of success by adopting (and adapting) ideas which can apply to my situation from those who have had success in a similar situation.

There's a throwing of the dice kind of risk and there's a solid investment kind.  For me, risk management has been the focus from almost day one.

Dave

[Markus]

Dave,

Excellent response. I see where the balance occurs with your endeavor. But, there are stories where the situation looked good in the long run, but ended up a failure before it began. On the other hand, there are stories where the beginning looked doomed, yet, the outcome was good.

I like your risk/reward philosophy. That's what investing in a volatile market is to investors.  But, to men looking to find a good FSW, how can one choose the route that brings into balance the low risk/reward process. What's involved in this process?

Mark

[Daveman]

Dave,

Excellent response. I see where the balance occurs with your endeavor. But, there are stories where the situation looked good in the long run, but ended up a failure before it began. On the other hand, there are stories where the beginning looked doomed, yet, the outcome was good.

I like your risk/reward philosophy. That's what investing in a volatile market is to investors.  But, to men looking to find a good FSW, how can one choose the route that brings into balance the low risk/reward process. What's involved in this process?

Mark

Mark, absolutely agree - sometime looks good, goes bad, looks bad then a pleasant surprise. 

First, I want to say that I believe the former, looks good and then goes bad is not a "failure" in my logic.  One has simply eliminated one possibility from the search.  Maybe it took longer than desired, but by eliminating the situation prior to marriage, it's a success in my opinion. Probably some debate there, but anything which ends prior to marriage doesn't FEEL good, but a hell of a lot better than the alternative of failure after marriage.  Of course, feelings get involved so sometimes logic flies out the window.

As far as risk/reward. Okay, for example a common language.  I do NOT want to enter that debate again, but I use it as it is a higher risk topic for the sake of this discussion.

My philosophy goes something like this.. Recognize and accept that a risk does exist.. determine if there is anything which can be done to reduce it, and what will be the cost of reduction.  Search and find people who have failed, and who have succeeded in this situation and listen intently to both.  The most common success attribute I saw for this situation was "patience" which is an equivalence of time.

Okay, so the lack of a common language risk can be reduced by adding time. Time for lessons, time for slower communication, etc.  So, the cost to alleviate the risk is time in that case (very simplistic for this discussion).  Is extra time worth the risk? Am I willing to risk say, 12 months to possibility learn of an incompatibility, change or heart, whatever as compared to maybe 3 with a common language?  Maybe it will be perfect as we develop a common language together, maybe we will discover an incompatibility... and if the latter is true.. it is still a SUCCESS!  While it didn't lead to marriage, more importantly, it didn't lead to divorce!

Almost every risk has a "counter with a cost".  This seems ridiculously unemotional for something so emotional as finding love, but we are talking strictly about learning.

I hope that made sense... I'm a bit tired and having trouble remaining focused today..

Dave

Edits: in any discussion, first the terms must be defined

in my pursuit:
Success: Reaching the 5 year milestone of marriage, or, eliminating a prospect prior to marriage
Failure: Divorce

[GreyScales]

My philosophy goes something like this.. Recognize and accept that a risk does exist.. determine if there is anything which can be done to reduce it, and what will be the cost of reduction.  Search and find people who have failed, and who have succeeded in this situation and listen intently to both.  The most common success attribute I saw for this situation was "patience" which is an equivalence of time.

Dave,

You mention language in your risk assessment...  I would assume Age and age differences are important risks to weigh.  As would be the relative maturity of both parties.  Where do you place things like the "interests" and "likes/dislikes" of the 2 parties in your risk assessment?  If the RW is significantly more outgoing than the WM, I can see "trouble" brewing there from the start.  Of course, there is a thing called "compromise"...

GS

[USCFAN]

To me it's definitely a combination of lowering risk and increasing odds for success.  With no ONE approach being absolutely correct for everyone.

I prefer to lower risks by learning from my own and PREFERABLY other's mistakes, and increasing my chances of success by adopting (and adapting) ideas which can apply to my situation from those who have had success in a similar situation.

I think Dave says it well ... and that's how I feel about it too ...

[Gator]

Both are helpful.  Personally, I pay more attention to success stories.

[Daveman]

Dave,

You mention language in your risk assessment...  I would assume Age and age differences are important risks to weigh.  As would be the relative maturity of both parties.  Where do you place things like the "interests" and "likes/dislikes" of the 2 parties in your risk assessment?  If the RW is significantly more outgoing than the WM, I can see "trouble" brewing there from the start.  Of course, there is a thing called "compromise"...

GS

Hi GS, Welcome to the forum!

I probably should put this disclaimer just in case... anything I write on this board has to be taken with more than a grain of salt.  I throw my ideas around and try to participate, but I certainly don't know much of anything really. 

There also should be at least a third category to cover serious relationships which end before marriage.  I term them as successes for eliminating a potential nightmare after marriage, but really, it would depend on the reason for the breakup. Such as, did the two discover they were incompatible? (obviously a GOOD thing) or did the guy follow a pattern of stupid behavior which drove the woman away? the latter of course should be a failure. 

I would say Age difference is minor risk factor.. mainly because there is more to determine, such as possible motives - is she looking for transport out of her current life or a soul mate and life long marriage, does she simply want support for young children.. which would be clarified with the "is she REALLY into you?" question.  I don't think it's as high of a risk as language, but also, it does seem that most age gap relationships actually do not reach all the way to marriage. Something happens to end them prior.  It probably could also be said that MOST international relationships do have an age disparity and so therefore are covered under the umbrella of "most international relationships do not succeed"... this in turn become more of a chicken/egg circle of debate.  While of course there are exceptions, most guys are not lucky enough to find success with the first woman. The average I think is about 4. So, even the successful ones have an average success rate of 25%.. if that logic makes sense to anyone.  The number logic alone should steer any prudently thinking man (or woman) away from this pursuit.  But we are here, chasing that dream. 

Interests/likes and dislikes of course reduce overall risk, but in my opinion fall into the category of common sense.  It blows my mind to read some of the stories where guys actually married some young hot thing for no other apparent reason than she's a young hot thing.  And of course, rationalize away the idiocy by throwing out something like the "you have to compromise to make any relationship work", or something else equally absurd to justify why they got involved with a woman who really has nothing in common with them.  Compromise is important in any relationship and part of natural interaction, but it cannot be the glue.  If compromise is holding the relationship together, then there's a serious problem.  The amount of compromise involved could be another factor of risk to long term success.

One important tidbit I've learned is that the more time you can spend on the ground there (face time), the lower your risk of marrying a wrong woman for you.  This seems to be a common factor of the majority of successes. 

All if this is a learning process which never ends.  I think we must pay attention to the failures to assist in recognizing camouflaged booby traps, but pay more attention to successes to learn how to go about this in a sensible, higher likelihood of long term success manner.

Dave

[I/O]

Both are helpful.  Personally, I pay more attention to success stories.

The best sporting coach I ever worked with told we two things which I have never forgotten and always tried to apply. I believe both are somewhat applicable here also.

1) (I Quote him) I am on top because the people I teach are better than me.

2) Always rub shoulders with those better than yourself.

Those two things add up to me to looking at success and picking out from that what you can apply to your own particular situation. As for wasters and losers, better left to their own devices IMO.

I/O

[Markus]

Please allow me to apologize for not responding after starting this thread, but, I haven't been back to the board until now. And, that pattern will probably continue, unless I get into a heated debate, which is what I like. But, my purpose here is not a heated debate. I want men who are trying to find a lovely wife from the FSU to consider all possibilities in their endeavor. Let me give an analogy.

I invest in trading currency. Any person who has traded currency knows this market is extremely volatile and most people lose. I can say I'm currently in the losing category overall. But, I've learned to develop trading strategies from experience and am getting better. I have access to the "big boys" or I guess you could call them professionals. Now, keep in mind, me nor the the big boys knows what the market will do 5 minutes, 1 hour, 10 hours, or 1 week from now. There are many opinions out there where the currency market will go. Of course, we are talking about many different countries, and, the U.S. dollar is a big driver in it all. I said all that to say that I have, in the past, developed trading strategies based upon the expert opinions.  I have been burned so many times taking their advice. It's when I stick to my plan is when I do better. It's just taken me a while to learn that fact. So, with respect to finding an FSUW, which, I can verify is the best way to go for a man seeking a good wife, men should carefully weigh the opinions of other people.

My opinion is from a guy (me) who proposed during the first week of seeing her in person. Of course, there was 3-4 months of writing and talking on the phone prior to my proposal. In addition, my current wife spoke very, very, very little English. So, you see, proposing during the 1st meeting with a lady that spoke almost no English was risky. Honestly, I didn't even consider what I did a risk at all. I could have proposed to an AW that I had been dating for 5 years and the risk was equal to me. Marriage by itself is risky. I knew what I wanted, I targeted her, and it all worked out. I've been married about 3 1/2 years. Wow, it just keeps getting better.

I recently sent a PM to jb (I don't think he will mind me pointing that out) and asked what he thought about my success. The reason why I asked that question is because he was so adamantly against the route I took. It was a train heading for a crash. But, he said he didn't wish me any ill, but would never recommend to a newbie to do what I did. I don't blame him. Well, now wait a second. It worked for me so why wouldn't it work for everyone else? That question is rhetorical. You see, jb is basing his opinion on what he wouldn't do and didn't do. So, in the beginning, should I have listened to him and abandoned what I was doing?  I can tell you that I have the most wonderful wife a man can have today. Words cannot describe what a wonderful, most beautiful wife I have. Oh yes, we do disagree, but we work it out and our love just keeps growing. Can love grow? Ours is. Should I have been in love when I proposed as I am today?

My point is that a man just beginning should weigh the possibles to him. Just because what I did doesn't mean it will work for you. Then again, if you restrict yourself from the possibilities, you could be missing out on a very good lady. Don't alter what you want to do based upon other men's experience. Maxx, who had a bad experience, has been clinging to that experience as springboard to talk on board. I wish, and I don't know if he has, would put that behind him and move on. I have spoken with Maxx on the phone and it was bad luck. I only know his side. But, my next paragraph is not about Maxx; It's just my opinion. Please do not correlate the two paragraphs.

I am of the opinion that when a man goes for it and it doesn't work out, it's the man's fault. That fault can be from choosing the wrong lady or the guy is a jerk to begin with. If a man is an a-hole in the beginning, he will be that way throughout. FSU women don't take much crap. So, when a man takes advice from situations that didn't work, and that experience now becomes advice, BEWARE.  Stick to the opinions that have worked. And I can tell theres a few guys on this board that have chosen the route that's not typical. Then again, what's typical.

Mark



 

[Lit_1nce]

I am of the opinion that when a man goes for it and it doesn't work out, it's the man's fault.

This would be true if every woman responded to any man, exactly as expected, according to established guidelines in the "womans manual" that every man has read...  but, women are people and they are all different.. and shockingly enough, they can be wrong, and at fault too..  I would also point out, that there are times when no one is at fault. Actually, the whole assigning of blame can be counter-productive. I learn from mistakes.. mine, theirs, others, and try and adjust accordingly.. their fault, my fault, doesn't matter.

The rest of that comment, I kind of get what your saying.. That perhaps people who failed did something wrong, and therefore their advice is suspect, and not necessarily a failure if tried by a different man... fair enough.. I agree and analyze these comments and combine them with other peoples comments and my own experiences and then just do things my way anyway. (which is what I think will work for me)

[Markus]

Lit,

Let me add a little to my "I am of the opinion that when a man goes for it and it doesn't work out, it's the man's fault.

I'm not talking about Western Women here. I'm writing about FSUW. There's a big difference, hence, the reason why I'm posting that statement on a board for FSUW.
My opinion is about long term, not the testing stage. There's a point when a man makes a decision to "go for it." There are men who think it's all glory and roses after he is able to find a wife. If the man chose a whore it's his fault. It's always the man's fault. When a woman goes for another man in a marriage, she's not getting enough attention at home. So, a man must be sure of what he's doing in the beginning. You know how many hot chicks I saw today in Texas at an event? A bunch. But, I love my wife too much to try and get some "strange" stuff. If the wife wants some strange stuff, the man is doing something wrong. This is just one example. You know, golf has probably robbed many marriages. Drinking with the buddies too often, and etc can also rob a marriage. I'm telling you, it's normally the man's fault, but he won't admit it.

Mark

[oldernotwiser]

I am trying to understand what you are saying. 

If you get married and then eventually divorced, it is the man's fault either because of his inadeqacies, or because he married the wrong women.

I guess you cannot disagree with the logic of it, it just does not feel like truth to me.

[catzenmouse]

I probably should put this disclaimer just in case... anything I write on this board has to be taken with more than a grain of salt.  I throw my ideas around and try to participate, but I certainly don't know much of anything really.

Just saw this thread. Will continue reading and respond as appropriate. Simply had to qualify this statement from Daveman.

His posts should be taken with several grains of salt, a slice of lime and a shot of tequila. If it still doesn't make sense. Rinse and repeat. Continue on in this fashion until you either agree with it or want to refute it (usually takes me 6 or 7 shots to get there) and all will be okay. 

Ken

[catzenmouse]

OWW,

 Sorry dude but your still spouting the same storyline that you have been from the beginning which is basically "Look At Me! If I can do it anyone can!"

 The flat out truth is that YOU are an anomalie. Just because you are successful (if you really are) so far does not make it a path for other men to follow.

 This has actually gotten to be pretty routine for you. Every six months or so you pop up and spout out about your success but you never really speak about your life. So how is anyone to know what kind of success you have or if it is really a success. We don't do we? So your drive by shooting really doesn't have any meat behind it and is just another way for you to try to garner some attention. Pretty sad IMO.

Ken

[Son of Clyde]

There are a lot of things we will never know about because there are so few things of a personal nature posted by the married guys.

There is a wealth of knowledge however about the process itself.

I think the key is to sift through all the posts and gather what you think is valuable, good and bad. I think it is interesting to read about the horror stories within the visa process and we could devote a whole board to that one subject. Oops, I think Visa Journey already has done this.

[catzenmouse]

There are a lot of things we will never know about because there are so few things of a personal nature posted by the married guys.

Yes, many of the OMB's (myself included though I have a lot more of B than OM) do not toss out personal details at the drop of a hat. My issue with OWW is that he does not disclose ANY thing about his life or their issues yet he continues to spout off about his great success. For all we know she left him 2 years ago.

 SoC, I appreciate that your trying to keep this on a "nice" path but OWW is playing a manipulative game to give himself a feel good/I told you so. The behavior is truly a "wannabe success" not a true success.

Ken

[jb]

Ken,

Quite right... Our personal life should be our own, no need to place personal things under a microscope.

The only problem I have with the OWW is that he still refuses to admit he bought a pig-in-a-poke, and got lucky.  That's assuming everything he write is true.  I wish no man bad fortune, but I won't encourage him to jump off a cliff either.  I fear most that newbies could read of his "success" story, and think this deal is a cake walk.  The improving economy in the FSU will continue to make finding a good woman more and more difficult as time goes on.  Men treading down this path will have to show up with a lot more than a Blue Passport in their pocket if they wish to make a go of things.

That's just how I see it.

[Daveman]

His posts should be taken with several grains of salt, a slice of lime and a shot of tequila. If it still doesn't make sense. Rinse and repeat. Continue on in this fashion until you either agree with it or want to refute it (usually takes me 6 or 7 shots to get there) and all will be okay. 

Ken

LoL! Thanks for the qualification Ken... That's exactly how I encode my posts, so of course, it would require that precise method of multiple shots to decode them..  I traded in my Little Orphan Annie Decoder Ring for a bottle of tokillya and a bag of limes.. 

I think my name translated into Russian becomes DisPutin..


Back to the topic of Learning, One Week Wonder's story, etc..

Mark said:

I invest in trading currency. Any person who has traded currency knows this market is extremely volatile and most people lose. I can say I'm currently in the losing category overall. But, I've learned to develop trading strategies from experience and am getting better. I have access to the "big boys" or I guess you could call them professionals. Now, keep in mind, me nor the the big boys knows what the market will do 5 minutes, 1 hour, 10 hours, or 1 week from now. There are many opinions out there where the currency market will go. Of course, we are talking about many different countries, and, the U.S. dollar is a big driver in it all. I said all that to say that I have, in the past, developed trading strategies based upon the expert opinions.  I have been burned so many times taking their advice. It's when I stick to my plan is when I do better.

Okay, but, what if your planturned out in practice to be mostly identical to what the professionals teach?

Here's what I see.. I think there's a lot of joy in ruffling feathers because of past confrontations with some members.. however... let's take a look at what was said in that Great Debate thread some months ago... this is the basic synopsis that I gathered from various posts in that thread.

1) He gets in contact with a woman with little English skills, but communicates with her through translation for a few months prior to the first visit.
2) He visits her and they communicate through translators and translation devices
3) He proposes marriage and she accepts.
4) he returns home
5) He does not file for K-1
6) They continue communication while she completely busts her ass studying English
7) Their relationship grows over time through communication and multiple visits and face time into real love.
She continues busting her ass studying English and their communication improves even more
9) Approximately 1.5 years after the proposal, He travels to Russia for the marriage, and marries her in Russia
10) she continues busting her ass studying English and even wins some awards for her proficiency
11) somewhere in the neighborhood of the two year mark, she arrives on her K-3 and they officially marry in USA
12) both are still dedicated to making the relationship work, flourish, and grow.

Move step 3 down the list to between 8 and 9 and you have the basic foundation of what the Professionals advise...  granted, they do say men will be much better off narrowing down the search to women who speak better English to begin with, but the basic recipe for higher probability of success is there..

Mark wears The One Week Wonder moniker proudly, but is his case, I still say it's a misnomer.

Whether by accident or forethought, they both put in the time and effort as well as had the patience to allow their relationship to blossom into real love prior to marriage.  The only real difference in his story between the Professionals and his plan is that he proposed earlier than recommended.

Worst case scenario would have been a break-up prior to the marriage and the possibility of losing the cost of a ring, and they had the time to identify an incompatibility prior to marriage which would have caused it.  Back to learning, his scenario does provide a glimpse of a lower risk approach.. all the basics are there.. time, communication, hard work, patience

So, although being quite the vociferous emissary of chain yanking, he still didn't follow the path of the One Week Idiots who actually do spend a week with a woman, have some kind of penilary vaginalistic compatibility, run home and file the K-1, get married (to strangers), and wake from the dream to discover the nightmare of Dante's Special Circle for Fools, Idiots, and Other Moronic Entities...  the One Week Wonder aspect is way overplayed and mostly smoke and mirrors..

Dave

[Son of Clyde]

I have spoken with Mark (OWW) on the phone. He seems to be a very nice guy. Maybe with the astronomical odds against someone, Mark wants to show that his approach worked for him. It is not an approach that should be used by everyone. From the pictures I have seen, Mark and his wife do look happy together. In a way I can see why he maybe wants to prove he is successful. He took some bashings at RWG and survived.

[BC]

Seems OWW just happened to meet a woman he found acceptable and that accepted him without doing much searching and proposed early on.  Unusual yes, lucky no.

BTW
Quite a few around here met their wives without explicitly searching for one.

I call this 'normal' or natural.

Those that are driven to find a wife using unusual methods seem to have the worst batting average.

[Lit_1nce]

If you get married and then eventually divorced, it is the man's fault either because of his inadeqacies, or because he married the wrong women.

I guess you cannot disagree with the logic of it, it just does not feel like truth to me.

Because you could just as easily say that it's "always" the womans fault for picking (or accepting) the wrong man. Although everyone is in charge of their own destiny, nobody has absolute control over it, or the people around them. All you can do is make decisions based on the information you have, and you can still be right and do everything right.. but that doesn't guarantee anything. There are no guarantees.